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  #21  
Old 01-28-2010, 12:19 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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I agree - my attempt to bring up the topic was, perhaps, futile, but I had hoped that some good would come of it.

I very much support the idea of people creating the spaces in which they feel comfortable to talk, discuss, and solve problems, because that's what this sort of thing is about, really, isn't it?

I was just trying to make one small step (and I agree, Ceoli, not the only one necessary) to try to mend any sort of wall which may be there. The first step is talking about it, and exchanging views. Maybe this is the wrong place for that, but I don't know of a better one.
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  #22  
Old 01-28-2010, 01:34 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by quila View Post
IOW, if they feel so marginalized, chances are they've already left the forum and aren't here to see the thread.
I guess, then, it comes down to whether it matters to a group whether or not these people are staying. Generally, if the goal is to create an *inclusive* community, it's worth examining the issue. If not, then I suppose it doesn't matter.

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As for starting one's own forum because one feels marginalized, it seems to perpetuate the problem. Although I will say, at least it doesn't feel like when the men come into the women's centre and say all sarcastically, "Why isn't there a MEN's centre?? We have issues too, you know" and I'm like "well what, do you need the women to start one for you??"
So I'm curious. How is having a women's center not self-marginalizing, but designing an online community to discuss the needs of a certain group of people where there doesn't seem to be the space to discuss such things is self-marginalizing.

To put another spin on this, is the fact that we have a forum that is specialized and intended to discuss poly issues mean that we are self-marginalizing as poly people? Why don't we talk about our relationship issues in all the other romance forums that exist on the net? Why set ourselves apart in this forum and perpetuate the problem?
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  #23  
Old 01-28-2010, 01:42 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I guess, then, it comes down to whether it matters to a group whether or not these people are staying. Generally, if the goal is to create an *inclusive* community, it's worth examining the issue. If not, then I suppose it doesn't matter.
Exactly, which was what I was trying to do by starting this thread and not making it about some specific forum, but a much more general discussion. So far I'm not sure that we are making any progress and you're right, Ceoli, maybe this isn't the right place, because those that are truly marginalized by this forum have already left. Hard to know how to reach out to those people though - I assumed that this was one of the more open poly forums around - it has certainly seemed so based on my own impressions and feedback that I have got. If you have a better suggestion, I'd be glad to hear it.


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So I'm curious. How is having a women's center not self-marginalizing, but designing an online community to discuss the needs of a certain group of people where there doesn't seem to be the space to discuss such things is self-marginalizing.
I agree with you completely - either both are, or both are not - can't have it both ways. One shouldn't criticise one resource for doing something that another resource does, simply because the "line" drawn is or isn't one that one agrees with.

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To put another spin on this, is the fact that we have a forum that is specialized and intended to discuss poly issues mean that we are self-marginalizing as poly people? Why don't we talk about our relationship issues in all the other romance forums that exist on the net? Why set ourselves apart in this forum and perpetuate the problem?
I think people do - I know that poly topics come up on dating fora, and relationship fora. The reception they get is often a tad "rough", and I would very much like there to be more tolerance in general. But we live in a rough world, and sometimes this necessitates creating the "niches". I look forward to a day where such niches aren't necessary, but I fear that we are a long way off this.

I had hoped that creating a dialogue here would go a small way to encouraging cross-generational poly folk to air whatever discomforts they have, in order to start the work of improving communications.
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  #24  
Old 01-28-2010, 03:40 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
Exactly, which was what I was trying to do by starting this thread and not making it about some specific forum, but a much more general discussion. So far I'm not sure that we are making any progress and you're right, Ceoli, maybe this isn't the right place, because those that are truly marginalized by this forum have already left. Hard to know how to reach out to those people though - I assumed that this was one of the more open poly forums around - it has certainly seemed so based on my own impressions and feedback that I have got. If you have a better suggestion, I'd be glad to hear it.

First, I would suggest that putting responsibility on a marginalized group to somehow "un-marginalize" themselves by teaching everyone else how not to marginalize them tends not to work. I've found that the best way to succeed in being more inclusive is for the dominant group to *first* do some hard self-examination.

Next, if I was doing a training on this, I would ask the participants to to make a list of all of their assumptions and perceptions of people who are young and poly. This is often a hard thing to accomplish because people can be very unwilling to admit what assumptions they carry (even to themselves). This is a hard process that has to involve some brutal honesty.

Then we'd examine how those assumptions we make (whether correct or incorrect) manifest in what we say or what culture is created in the larger group.

Those are just some first steps.

Quote:
But we live in a rough world, and sometimes this necessitates creating the "niches". I look forward to a day where such niches aren't necessary, but I fear that we are a long way off this.
Niches are not always a bad thing. People are diverse and have diverse needs and there's nothing wrong with gathering together around common needs or tastes or identities and to celebrate that. However, when a community that contains a broad range of identities makes that space welcoming to some identities and not to others, or somehow operates with incorrect assumptions about the identities of others, then groups are created out of a need for space to just be heard rather than a desire to gather and celebrate their identities. In that case, there are larger, less healthy things going on in that community.
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  #25  
Old 01-28-2010, 04:18 PM
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Um yeah, I completely disagree with the negative tone in this statement.
Ok - disagreement is good because it fuels conversations.
If the tone is 'negative' that might be a misperception of the intent - but even that says something. The tone was intended to be one of warning & alarm. A call to caution and really thinking things through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redsirenn;
I think of it more along the lines of how you find your friends and include them in your group. There certainly are traits and characteristics these friends must have, and i hope people do have those standards... I wouldn't be friends with just anybody, and they don't "get in" unless they fit those criteria.
My emphasis in the above quote............
I think this approach is pretty common. Now I'm trying to filter out what you are really 'saying' here vs how you phrased it. Otherwise, I think you could look at this as a perfect example of exactly the point & concern I was raising. Do you not see an "exclusionary" approach here ?
You have "expectations" in order to connect to you. The rules are set. it's all been figured out. There's a VERY distinct undertone of 'us' vs 'them'. And this is the way of the world for large numbers of people. And we have what we have.


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Originally Posted by ;
I just want a "community" of like minded individuals that fit different criteria. people I can talk to about issues that affect me more than someone 20 years my senior!
More substance for the above discussion..........
Just using your example text because you did (the age thing), why would you assume better understanding of a world issue - or even personal one - from someone of a particular age group ? Or feel you wouldn't be heard ?
But this concept applies to any range of perceived 'differences'. It could be age, cultural background, social status/power, geography, you name it. By isolating ourselves into pockets of similarity only, we're depriving not only ourselves, but each other of the wisdom and experiences that others have lived. It's building walls, not connections.
I have, for example, quite a number of "friends". We see eye-to-eye on some things. On others we don't. But I value their opinions and experiences as they do mine and we 'borrow' insights from each other as the situation dictates. Balance. Growth. Connection.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ;
Yes, sometimes the age gap is not important... but is DOES exist. and to ignore that fact and the differences between people is naive. It is OK too see the differences, so long as you understand them and don't criticize them - that you even appreciate them from time to time.
Nothing wrong with criticism ! As long as you have relative experience/insights to come with it to substantiate your point. Remember, once upon a time the earth was flat. And the sun revolved around it.
We (had) have reason to question and eventually criticize those views. But by locking yourself in the basement and never looking through the telescope, you may indeed come out to discover one day that the world has changed around you and indeed, you find yourself 'marginalized' - and even angry. And from there..............
Well - you fill in the rest.

GS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
[B]It is not uncommon for online forum communities to require questions when joining. The biggest purpose of such practices is to weed out spammers, who usually won't bother to spam a board if they have to do that much to join it. The other purpose of it is to be INTENTIONAL about the kind of community that's being build on that specific forum.

Again, that is NOT the same as being exclusive.
All true and when I posted it was only in response to two particular posts I'd seen. If there's more 'background' I'm just ignorant of it. My fears were only triggered by what appeared on the surface as a 'pulling away' - i.e. exclusion in general over what otherwise would be a common topic - 'polyamory'.
If indeed, as Ciel (and you ?) has since pointed out, the intent was to raise awareness of some people who were feeling unheard or un-respected or maybe not even understood, then I think that would be an awesome thing to investigate.
Like most others here, I/we haven't ever witnessed 'age' being any factor what-so-ever in the poly world so personally I'd love to hear any/all of the concerns and examples anyone could offer to substantiate those perceptions.
If that's the intent, and direction this thread takes - or if it takes yet another forum intended to specifically address those concerns - wonderful !
And to clarify more, why yes there's an obvious need to separate topics & materials. You don't want to encourage car repair discussions in the same conversation as you're discussing veterinary practice - but that doesn't seem to be what we're doing here.

Anyway......be interesting to see what becomes of this !

GS

Quote:
Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
We have a lot of 30-somethings in our group, and several 20-somethings. They seem to be quite comfortable mixing and I don't sense any divide.

This is why I want to know more about this, so that we don't fall into the trap of biasing things against the younger demographic.
Oh - and is this possibly more about 'connecting' (meeting/dating etc) than about any differences in approach, philosophy or practicality that get into all the long and wonderful discussions we seem to ?

If it's really just all about 'meeting' potential partners and there's a sentiment that anyone over 35 is outside consideration - well that's fine. That seems a common boundary line that's drawn - if you're under 18 you're not legal and if over 35 you're over the hill. Each to their own - right.

Maybe what's needed is something more like the 'dating' sites but targeted specifically at people that are poly inclined. If such a thing exists I'm not personally aware of it. Good project for someone to take on ?
I just don't know if the numbers are there at this point. In any age group.

GS

Last edited by NeonKaos; 01-28-2010 at 08:01 PM. Reason: merge posts
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  #26  
Old 01-28-2010, 05:58 PM
starlight1 starlight1 is offline
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Originally Posted by quila View Post
Although I will say, at least it doesn't feel like when the men come into the women's centre and say all sarcastically, "Why isn't there a MEN's centre?? We have issues too, you know" and I'm like "well what, do you need the women to start one for you??"
Snicker. This.



I personally dont feel marginalised and again probably wouldnt frequent this forum if I did. I sought out a place that was non-marginalised and open minded. And indeed one of the reasons i searched out polyamory too, as that seems to me an open-minded or at least open-people idea.

I actually only feel marginalised in my own relgion not in polyamory threads or communities, and i dont frequent BDSM places so i wouldnt know about that. But that is because most people in my religion are of the oppinion that is the only way to happiness and fufillment.
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  #27  
Old 01-28-2010, 07:00 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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nice point LR. thanks.
Big hugs. I think that many people just cna't find common ground due to one of them being immature emotionally or mentally and while that CAN be an age thing-it isn't always.

Ironically I RARELY get guessed my age when I'm out and about-in fact people are stunned to find out I have a 13 year old and I've seen people's eyes about pop out when they find out I also have an 18 year old.
But on the other hand, those same people are forever telling me, wow you are so amazingly intuitive and aware, it's like your ancient. (HUH?)

I think it's a matter of holding on to your youth as you age. Some people are so rushed to "grow up and move on" that they forget that they can mature and still be young at heart too.

FYI-Redsiren, I love reading your posts and when you post I often talk about the things you say with Maca, so in some way through this silly internet I feel we may have things in common too.
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  #28  
Old 01-28-2010, 07:33 PM
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Hello peeps,

I hear ya. All of these posts have very valid points in them.

In response to those that feel marginalized - yes, I feel like one of them. Not on here so much, I enjoy and get alot of great ideas/ thoughts via you all, regardless of age. But, when it comes down to MEETING people, it is a much different story. Sure - I can continue having the same conversations I have on here with any age group. But what about other things, other interests, what about the divide I DO FEEL that simply cannot be erased? This is a post from a favorite blog of mine that states the same thing really well: "Community"

And -of COURSE I choose my friends carefully. There are alot of people that don't get to know my thoughts on life and my deepest fears and joys. This is excluding alot of folks. I am ok with that. In fact, I think it is healthy. And If you knew me, you would see that although I do choose carefully I have more genuine BEST friends than anyone I have ever met. They are my sisters and brothers and we protect each other. This is because I was choosy.

So - I would LOVE to have another place to go, where I felt I fit in more. Not as an exclusion to the older poly groups, but as an addition to them. REALLY REALLY badly, I want this.

And Thanks again LR -
That gave me some warm fuzzies inside

Last edited by NeonKaos; 01-28-2010 at 08:03 PM. Reason: merge posts
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  #29  
Old 01-28-2010, 07:36 PM
quila quila is offline
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Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
I agree - my attempt to bring up the topic was, perhaps, futile, but I had hoped that some good would come of it.

I very much support the idea of people creating the spaces in which they feel comfortable to talk, discuss, and solve problems, because that's what this sort of thing is about, really, isn't it?

I was just trying to make one small step (and I agree, Ceoli, not the only one necessary) to try to mend any sort of wall which may be there. The first step is talking about it, and exchanging views. Maybe this is the wrong place for that, but I don't know of a better one.
I don't think it's futile. You sensed that there may have been a subset of the poly community that may have been feeling left out, and you sought to remedy the situation.

As far as the online community goes, I don't see a problem. I haven't checked out any of the poly groups for young people, and frankly I don't feel the need to.

Someone said something about the experience gained by older people having been through the trenches, and I definitely value the insight that their experience has given them. I happen to be one of the lucky few who can learn from the mistakes of others (I've never pissed on a fence, I hear it really f'ing hurts though). I just don't feel like I could access that wealth of knowledge from a bunch of 20-somethings, all of us stumbling about in the dark, repeating mistakes that others could have warned us about if we'd have bothered to hang out with them and listen to their advice.

My city is too small to have a poly community that I can find. There's a swingers club, and I'm currently sniffing that out to see if there are any poly people hiding out there, looking for something close to identify with. So far, no dice. So I can only speak to the non-marginalization of the online community, and in this one, I have found none.
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  #30  
Old 01-28-2010, 09:03 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Someone said something about the experience gained by older people having been through the trenches, and I definitely value the insight that their experience has given them. I happen to be one of the lucky few who can learn from the mistakes of others (I've never pissed on a fence, I hear it really f'ing hurts though). I just don't feel like I could access that wealth of knowledge from a bunch of 20-somethings, all of us stumbling about in the dark, repeating mistakes that others could have warned us about if we'd have bothered to hang out with them and listen to their advice.

This is certainly true and I very much value what intergenerational communities can offer, particularly when it comes to sharing experiences and hard learned lessons. I'm also in the camp of those who will GLADLY learn from the mistakes of others. However, I've found that intergenerational communities work best when the learning goes both ways. I've known quite a few wise 20-somethings in my day and younger generations tend to see things that might have been considered outrageous back in the day as "normal" in these times. It is always important to value that different perspective.

But even then, sometimes it's just good to seek support from a group of peers that share many of the same perspectives that someone might have.
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