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  #141  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:03 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
As was said before, this forum and this thread aren't terribly representative of the people you've been saying that you want information from. I really can't see how what you read here would be sufficient enough to give you a clearer view. Unless confirmation bias is what you were seeking.
Ceoli, data points are data points - none of them are bad. As I wrote before, I read and comprehended (I believe) what you wrote about this not being the whole picture, or even a totally representative one, and have been also doing other things to educate myself.

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If this is something you truly would like to understand, I would suggest going outside of this forum and reading and researching around marginalization and concentration of power. There are many subtleties to the dynamic you were attempting to understand and this thread has barely scratched the surface since many people have been just seeing what they want to see rather than really engage.
Many of the doors to me for forums that cater to such age-groups are closed to me, and I recognize that I am an "outsider" (and I can respect that) so that has somewhat limited me - but I have been doing some other reading - enough for me to gain some better understanding of the issue than I had before (I don't know that I will ever be able to see the whole of the issue). This has certainly given me some great information to help me set my priorities.

So I thank you for mentioning this issue to start with.
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  #142  
Old 02-08-2010, 05:53 PM
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This is coming from a UK perspective, and is as implicit of the bisexual scene as it is the poly-one (but over here there seems to be a huge amount of crossover).

I'm 22. My fiancÚ is 19. We're not your typical "let's go out and get ****-faced" 19 and 22 year-old's, admittedly, but we've never felt more accepted than when we're around our poly friends.

The poly community is definitely older than us (the median age I think is about 34) but they're incredibly accepting and it's a very understandable thing. One thing we have noticed is that, for the most part, the people our own age a very positive when we mention polyamory (reactions include "That makes so much sense" and "I like what you do") and it's simply the lack of information that's holding them back from finding the community and exploring poly.

So, in short, no. As a younger poly neither myself nor my partner feel at all marginalised.
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  #143  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:13 PM
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Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
As was said before, this forum and this thread aren't terribly representative of the people you've been saying that you want information from. I really can't see how what you read here would be sufficient enough to give you a clearer view. Unless confirmation bias is what you were seeking.

If this is something you truly would like to understand, I would suggest going outside of this forum and reading and researching around marginalization and concentration of power. There are many subtleties to the dynamic you were attempting to understand and this thread has barely scratched the surface since many people have been just seeing what they want to see rather than really engage.
This is what I've been having trouble with within this thread. The request being made is "talk to me about your marginalization so I can learn" and then on the other hand it is being stated that "I don't have to discuss my views or my endeavors to understand marginalization outside of this forum, here where I am asking information of you." It is not encouraging a two way conversation. An 'I'll take but not give' approach perhaps.

There hasn't been any outreach or engagement with those who spoke of their experiences with marginalization. This then gives me the impression that "confirmation bias" is what is being sought and not alleviation of marginalization.


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Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
Many of the doors to me for forums that cater to such age-groups are closed to me, and I recognize that I am an "outsider" (and I can respect that) so that has somewhat limited me - but I have been doing some other reading - enough for me to gain some better understanding of the issue than I had before (I don't know that I will ever be able to see the whole of the issue). This has certainly given me some great information to help me set my priorities.
This is interesting and possibly connected to marginalization. Have you been told you're an outsider or have you been shut out from polyamory groups aimed at 18-35 year olds based on your age?

~Raven~
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Last edited by Ravenesque; 02-08-2010 at 06:40 PM.
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  #144  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:00 PM
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This is interesting and possibly connected to marginalization. Have you been told you're an outsider or have you been shut out from polyamory groups aimed at 18-35 year olds based on your age?
Nope, I haven't been told anything - no feedback was given (which is typical for most online communities of whatever type, so I am not surprised)- my membership applications just weren't accepted. I do not fall into the target age range so that MAY (note I said "MAY") have been a reason why I was not accepted, but I can't tell for sure.

It's ok - I'm not about to start beating down any doors and demanding entrance, nor do I want to try to be somewhere I am not wanted.
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Last edited by CielDuMatin; 02-08-2010 at 07:05 PM.
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  #145  
Old 02-08-2010, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
Nope, I haven't been told anything - no feedback was given (which is typical for most online communities of whatever type, so I am not surprised)- my membership applications just weren't accepted. I do not fall into the target age range so that MAY (note I said "MAY") have been a reason why I was not accepted, but I can't tell for sure.

It's ok - I'm not about to start beating down any doors and demanding entrance, nor do I want to try to be somewhere I am not wanted.
As you do say "may" and that no response is not something unexpected from online communities I am curious where this impression comes from:
Quote:
Many of the doors to me for forums that cater to such age-groups are closed to me, and I recognize that I am an "outsider" (and I can respect that)

Where does the outsider bit come from if you were not told such and nothing occurred that was different from any other online community in your experience?

~Raven~

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Rest your weary head and let your heart decide. It's so easy.
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Last edited by Ravenesque; 02-08-2010 at 08:44 PM.
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  #146  
Old 02-08-2010, 09:16 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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Where does the outsider bit come from if you were not told such and nothing occurred that was different from any other online community in your experience?
Answered in my previous post.
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  #147  
Old 02-08-2010, 11:16 PM
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I see. For a moment I was concerned that you were illustrating an instance of marginalization based on age. But now it seems you are stating otherwise. It's interesting that you chose to highlight that particular possibility of not being accepted by these groups for being seen as an "outsider" only to state that you were given no indication of this being the case in the slightest.

~Raven~
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Rest your weary head and let your heart decide. It's so easy.
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  #148  
Old 02-08-2010, 11:50 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Originally Posted by xmakina View Post
This is coming from a UK perspective, and is as implicit of the bisexual scene as it is the poly-one (but over here there seems to be a huge amount of crossover).

I'm 22. My fiancÚ is 19. We're not your typical "let's go out and get ****-faced" 19 and 22 year-old's, admittedly, but we've never felt more accepted than when we're around our poly friends.

The poly community is definitely older than us (the median age I think is about 34) but they're incredibly accepting and it's a very understandable thing. One thing we have noticed is that, for the most part, the people our own age a very positive when we mention polyamory (reactions include "That makes so much sense" and "I like what you do") and it's simply the lack of information that's holding them back from finding the community and exploring poly.

So, in short, no. As a younger poly neither myself nor my partner feel at all marginalised.
Glad to hear that and glad to have your input ! Bring your friends

GS
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  #149  
Old 05-15-2010, 03:51 AM
jkelly jkelly is offline
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Unhappy Response to criticism of freaksexual essay

As I am sure will be obvious from the following, I have a lot of sympathy for the position that younger poly-folk are marginalised.

I doubt that I will have any more success communicating why I've come to this belief than Raven or Ceoli did, but since this post specifically addressed a blog post on the subject that I think is spot-on, I'm going to speak to that.

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Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
Ok..........

I just finished reading a long essay from one of the links Raven posted - a Freaksexual site.

http://freaksexual.wordpress.com/200...ry-organizing/
...

Quote:
Overall however it was full of numerous contradictions and some questionable assumptions. The overall tone comes across to me as aggressive and confrontational.
Are you aware that this is a very cliched response to the objections of a marginalised group? http://www.theunapologeticmexican.or...o.html#maestro addresses this in the context of racism, but it happens in the context of feminists being described as 'shrill', and so on. Do you think it is reasonable for the priveleged to determine what is the appropriate tone, or level of expressed frustration or anger, for those that feel marginalised? Why would that be?

Quote:
But the riff seems very tied to the current cultural norm of "I want it NOW, I want it MY way, and YOU are in my way !"
Do you understand that adopting the position as being able to describe something as "the current cultural norm" might itself be an ageist statement? If you see this is an objective assessment of the way that things are, do you understand that those people who don't have the same privelege as you do might see things differently? Is there any room in this understanding of "the cultural norm" for people who are actually marginalised, and are frustrated or angry or aggressive about it? Do you think that there could ever be a situation in which you were "in the way", or are you the only reasonable judge of who is in the way or not?

Quote:
It's mostly about talking and not so much about listening.
Do you think it is reasonable to tell someone who says that their voice is not being heard that they should do more listening? Do you think that the person who has more authority and privilege should be the arbiter of who should talk and who should listen?

Quote:
Now, this may itself sound 'age-ist',
Why are you using quotes there? Do you disbelieve that ageism exists? Do you think you could defend the position that people don't judge other people based on prejudices about their age? If not, do you think that you get to be the person who decides what is appropriate judging and what isn't?

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I'm one O dem damn hippies ! So my perspective and experiences kind of go back to a lot of the beginnings of these social awarness causes. But things WERE different then. We didn't have books and professors then to just lay it all out in nice, neat little packages (designed and edited by who knows who). We had to build it, figure it out as we went.
Does this sound at all self-congratulatory to you? Being neither old enough nor American, I am not very familiar with hippy culture. I'd be very surprised, however, to learn that "social awareness" began in the United States within a specific recent generation. Do you think you can explain why your generation was so exceptional, if you do believe that? Would that explanation be able to be non-ageist?

Quote:
But one thing that was different is that we didn't think we had all the answers.
Who are you responding to here? I'm pretty sure that Pepper doesn't think that he has "all the answers". There's probably someone of my and Pepper's generation that does think so, but it would be really weird to hold that person up as our representative. Is there any chance you're creating some straw man to attack instead of dealing with the actual conversation underway?

Quote:
So bottom line - I don't see this being anything at all about 'marginalization'. If it is, it's obviously self designed & perpetuating.
Do you think it is reasonable for the person with the authority and privilege to be the one who decides who is marginalised and who is not? I suspect that if you think that through, you'll realise that might be a bad rule.

It is really encouraging that many young people have expressed how welcome they feel on this thread. Yay! But, I'd like to close by mentioning that *even more* might do so if it wasn't up to them to write a post like this (or like Raven's many posts). A great way to be an ally is to take on the job of calling out other people on their marginalising behaviour, instead of leaving it up to that marginalised group to do so.
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  #150  
Old 05-15-2010, 04:31 AM
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redpepper redpepper is offline
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Originally Posted by jkelly View Post
Being neither old enough nor American, I am not very familiar with hippy culture. I'd be very surprised, however, to learn that "social awareness" began in the United States within a specific recent generation. Do you think you can explain why your generation was so exceptional, if you do believe that? Would that explanation be able to be non-ageist?

A great way to be an ally is to take on the job of calling out other people on their marginalising behaviour, instead of leaving it up to that marginalised group to do so.
Welcome to the forum jkelly, I think it's great that you have made some valid points in your post but would wonder if perhaps these above statements would not be seen as agiest them self and also marginalizing.

Just a thought.

I am wondering what your intent is in regard to your questions? It's hard to answer them without feeling defensive and that there isn't a finger being pointed by you.

I forget what went on in this thread as it was a while ago now, but seem to remember there was a lot of finger pointing going on in it already... could you suggest some ideas on how to address the issues here without pointing a finger back and forth? Perhaps in such a way as to create communication out of interest and intent to understand one another? In the spirit of coming together as a larger poly community?

After all, we all merge together in commonality and hopefully community on here. Rather than with intent to divide.

Thanks for your consideration...
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