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  #111  
Old 02-05-2010, 04:38 AM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by Derbylicious View Post
Just wanted to say that I'm in the age group in question and in no way feel maginalized.
-Derby

You're just not looking hard enough. [/s]
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  #112  
Old 02-05-2010, 06:53 AM
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Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
Raven - it's obvious to me that you consider those of us not part of the solution as being part of the problem. You have every right to think so, but not all of us can or want to be as "active" about this in the same area. I am dealing with the same sort of thing when it comes to working with feline rescue. That is the battle I have chosen. Some days it's all I can do to just keep them clean and fed. I hate it when I go somewhere to relax and end up having to expend energy to educate people. However, I am happy when I just hear that someone got their damn cat spayed or neutered and they're not following me with an icepick and hammer while I'm sticking my fingers in the dyke (and not in the fun way either). I do not feel compelled to recruit others into my "cause".

I'm not saying you're here to "recruit" people, but you really do need to acknowledge that other people's priorities in life might be different from fighting against ageism, racism, mono-poly-isms, whatever.
The first point was to address negative traits which were attached to young people in this thread, a trend in a couple forum threads which seemed less connected to whether marginalization of young polys existed in polyamorous communities (and methods of seeking to end it) and more to do with the idea that marginalization didn't exist and actually jumping on the marginalizing bandwagon.

Next were inquiries as to where some of the perceptions of young poly groups were coming from; whether they were based on fact in the slightest bit and
whether marginalization was something addressed by any of those groups. Had anyone interacted with young poly groups and formed opinions in reality (and not assumption) about these groups? The answer was silence or no.

In this forum I've stated that people can be of help to others in different ways because resources are not the same across the board for everyone.

However, I was not speaking about how active people are in addressing marginalization so much as trying to give people the benefit of the doubt that they were perpetuating marginalization within this forum. A simple discussion uncovered some of the unpleasantness behind marginalization.

Blind un-informed assumptions about others at the core of decisions and opinions espoused. Prejudice and ignorance as a foundation. Clique-ism which was highlighted in an experience quila shared and LR illustrated an aspect of it in practice in regards to rumors (if any truth can be attached to descriptions of numerous shadowy people). GS was quite bold in stating it was a normal reaction to assume exclusion and not to interact with groups that are not aimed at you, and that different groups splinter and segregate people. He responded with confusion at the concept that there were groups aimed at certain people that included people outside of a targeted demographic. Elsewhere, at the mention of privilege, derision.

In the context of this discussion, and only this discussion, I found it disturbing the lack of critical thinking that was present and the abundant amount of flippancy that was. Many had a lot of time to do anything but examine marginalization and offer methods of dealing with it. Being "active" can be as little as examining personal prejudices, or a smaller step acknowledging that you have any.

The rest is a bizarre spin away from the topic with the thread degenerating majorly in spaces where some create amazing conspiracy tales about a secret purpose behind the thread topic. Or with some attempting character assassination fueled by resentment and insecurity.

The points raised were not about prioritizing "action" against marginalization in everyone's lives (though action doesn't have to be grand to be effective) but about calling out the assumptions which were not founded in anything concrete. It was also about showing that certain interactions and ways of understanding each other were not impossible and that there are those here who have experienced such connections on small and large scales and continue to create and nurture those relationships.


~Raven~
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Last edited by Ravenesque; 02-05-2010 at 07:00 AM.
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  #113  
Old 02-05-2010, 07:40 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
There are 1,525, members on this forum and 322 active members. Would all those who feel marginalized as young polies please say something. Perhaps this is a valid topic, perhaps it is in the mind of a limited few, so I'm begging you....if you feel marginalized say something so the rest of us can at least feel there is actually a problem here. Pretty, pretty please
It's my understanding that the topic of this thread was about marginalization in poly communities in general, not specifically this forum. As I've said before, this forum is a very small and not terribly representative slice of the poly world.

Quote:
My frustration with this topic is that no one seems to be admitting that they feel marginalized because of their youth. And no one seems to be able to concisely explain what the fuck that means.
As I said earlier...if there are people who've felt marginalized (for whatever reason), they probably would have already left. And as for people who may not want to admit the issue (and let's face it, after the reception that Raven's received on this thread, I doubt many people would feel that encouraged to step up to raise their issue) I did address that in a previous reply:

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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
Plus, experience has taught me that just asking a marginalized group without doing the groundwork of self-examination often just results in marginalizing that group further. Basically, if a person generally feels uncomfortable or unwelcome in a group, they're not always going to be so forthcoming when just flat out asked what their problem is. (Just to be clear, I'm illustrating a dynamic, not a synopsis of how everyone may or may not react.)
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  #114  
Old 02-05-2010, 08:05 AM
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Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
There are 1,525, members on this forum and 322 active members. Would all those who feel marginalized as young polies please say something. Perhaps this is a valid topic, perhaps it is in the mind of a limited few, so I'm begging you....if you feel marginalized say something so the rest of us can at least feel there is actually a problem here. Pretty, pretty please

My frustration with this topic is that no one seems to be admitting that they feel marginalized because of their youth. And no one seems to be able to concisely explain what the fuck that means.

I'm editting to expand on my request - I am not that smart - I want an example...a real world, tangible, already occured, occuring event.
A few examples which might have been missed are the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by quila View Post
I used to be a very active member of my city's BDSM "community" and I found exactly the cliquism GS was talking about. They also had an online forum, and I always found that any new people who didn't meet their criteria was ostracised and made to feel like a freak. That's exactly what you don't need when you're coming out of the closet and you already feel like a weirdo.
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
Nope I'm not, but I have experienced marginalization in the past. But I'm pretty sensitive to issues that may marginalize people, so I tend to try to pay attention and continually ask questions and challenge assumptions that create such marginalization.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redsirenn View Post
Hello peeps,

I hear ya. All of these posts have very valid points in them.

In response to those that feel marginalized - yes, I feel like one of them. Not on here so much, I enjoy and get alot of great ideas/ thoughts via you all, regardless of age. But, when it comes down to MEETING people, it is a much different story. Sure - I can continue having the same conversations I have on here with any age group. But what about other things, other interests, what about the divide I DO FEEL that simply cannot be erased? This is a post from a favorite blog of mine that states the same thing really well: "Community"
Quote:
Originally Posted by redsirenn View Post
I just wanted to add something that I thought of while biking...

It really isn't that I feel "marginalized". More so, that I want something different in addition to...


RS
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenPorcupine View Post
I've felt marginalized by both the poly and "mainstream" communities because of my age. Many mono folk think I'm in "a phase" or "testing the waters". I've even had one person say that "You're not really poly, you're just... not sure what it is you want".

I've also felt marginalized by the older poly communities because my idea of healthy relationships don't include "families" and children, both things credited to me being "young and naive" apparently. Also, partly because my idea "structure" seems to be evolving. Specifically, I feel as if I'm moving away from the "primary/secondary" structure and some people seem to think this evolution is indicative of being... whatever it is they think it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
I have never felt marginalized because of my age when it comes to "alternative scenes", such as sex and music; I have only felt marginalized via ageism when it comes to MAINSTREAM "scenes", such as school and the workplace.

But, like someone said, most of the time I just prefer to fuck off.
These all were statements made expressing past and present experiences with marginalization with the poly community, in other alternative communities and outside of alternative communities in the mainstream.

Many thoughtful things were said and I think each is worth discussing and drawing insight from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
As I said earlier...if there are people who've felt marginalized (for whatever reason), they probably would have already left. And as for people who may not want to admit the issue (and let's face it, after the reception that Raven's received on this thread, I doubt many people would feel that encouraged to step up to raise their issue) I did address that in a previous reply:
Thank you for that Ceoli. I sat here and said little to nothing of my personal experiences with marginalization within the poly community partially for that reason. Those who had formed preconceived notions based on rumor alone soon created full posts held together by nothing but rumor, responding to nothing of substance within this thread itself. It was amazing yet unfortunate to watch.

But Mono offered a chance to re-engage with the topic and move past the spiral. I will take it and I hope others who felt deterred from posting their experiences due to negativity towards young polys and/or those who experienced marginalization within the poly community, will discuss those experiences, needs of support which you would like to see fulfilled in the poly community (local or broader) and perhaps perspectives on how to end marginalization and build and encourage a more inclusive poly community.

~Raven~
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~Open up your mind and let me step inside.
Rest your weary head and let your heart decide. It's so easy.
When you know the rules.
It's so easy. All you have to do is fall in love.
Play the game.
Everybody play the game of love. Yeah...~

Last edited by Ravenesque; 02-05-2010 at 08:10 AM.
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  #115  
Old 02-05-2010, 02:22 PM
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CielDuMatin CielDuMatin is offline
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I think that so far this has been a very interesting discussion, and I just wanted to make some comments based on what I see...

First, to GS's comment about agendas:
Agenda - "a list, plan, outline, or the like, of things to be done, matters to be acted or voted upon, etc."

While I don't have a written list or anything, I think that everyone has things they want to do and get done, so I think that everybody has an agenda in the true sense of the word.

So what was my specific agenda for starting this thread?
This post from Ceoli got me thinking:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
My understanding is that she is attempting to create a network for a population of people who are traditionally marginalized in other poly communities. [...]

Sometimes the practice of inclusivity involves creating spaces tailored to meet the needs of people who perhaps have not been able to find that kind of understanding in other communities.
I come with the genetics and familial background of some privilege (as do well over 50% of the population of earth). Because of the circumstances of my upbringing, I am not as familiar with some important societal issues - many of which I have not directly encountered. I acknowledge, however, that they exist. I do my best to seek that understanding when opportunities are given to me. My hope is that, by understanding how my, and others, actions affect the people around me, I can change behaviours which I exhibit that may cause people to feel marginalized for no good reason than their own lack of priviledge.

Since that other thread was, in title and subject, very specifically about an external forum, I thought that we might get a better dialogue on the subject by starting a new thread with a title that described the issue more precisely, in order to keep the discourse away from discussing specifics of a forum and focusing on the issue at hand. I figured that if there is a group that is traditionally marginalized, then increasing awareness of the issues might make people a little more sensitive to them. If I had wanted to make this about that forum I would have continued the discussion there, instead of starting a new thread.

I think that this thread has been a learning experience about both the dynamics and substance of the issue, and how people treat each other and each others opinions, and I thank those who have taken part so far (and encourage others to do the same, as they feel comfortable).

I have taken Ceoli's advice to heart, and not ignored it - I am sure that others have done the same - just because they are not posting the details of their own personal examinations doesn't mean that they are not doing it. Like Ceoli, I suggest that each of us do some self-examination and look at our own behaviour patterns. The process and the actions that come out of it are between the individual and their own conscience to work through - different people have different life commitments and priorities and they need to work out how important this issue is to them. I hope that by reading this thread, though, people have become knowledgeable enough to start this process, should they so choose. I know it has been (and continues to be) valuable information for me.

I also continue to recognise Ceoli's point about those who truly feel marginalized due to age having already left and will not partake, so that we may not get a complete picture. But any information that we can get is better than none, I would think. If we can't get the information first-hand, then if anybody has any second-hand information on the topic, I would hope they feel free to share it here. Some have kindly already done so, and I feel that this helps greatly.
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Last edited by CielDuMatin; 02-05-2010 at 02:28 PM.
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  #116  
Old 02-05-2010, 05:06 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Let's discuss this forum for a moment.

Would you folks consider it "marginalization of young polys" the fact that the site guidelines explicitly exclude those under the age of 18?
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  #117  
Old 02-05-2010, 05:13 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
Let's discuss this forum for a moment.

Would you folks consider it "marginalization of young polys" the fact that the site guidelines explicitly exclude those under the age of 18?
LOLOL

Good one YG
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  #118  
Old 02-05-2010, 05:50 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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LOLOL

Good one YG
Just answer the question pls.
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  #119  
Old 02-05-2010, 05:59 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
Just answer the question pls.
Ok - I will at least. Briefly even.
From a purely philosophical perspective you would have to say YES. Excluding them implies that they (or their thoughts & questions) have no value in discussions of love & sexuality. Which of course is absurd !
But then we have society and their dogmas and laws and .....etc etc.
So unless we want the forum shut down we have to ask them to at least lie about their age

GS
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  #120  
Old 02-05-2010, 06:16 PM
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Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
Let's discuss this forum for a moment.

Would you folks consider it "marginalization of young polys" the fact that the site guidelines explicitly exclude those under the age of 18?
I haven't looked closely at the Polyamory.com site guidelines. But it could be considered so. We have to acknowledge however that some forms of marginalization are more heavily implemented than others based on the power behind it. We're talking about the government at this point. I think there is a generally accepted marginalization of young adults and young people within the U.S. written into law. If we ignore the law, we are subject to fines, jail time, etc. Therefore people follow regulations with guidelines of 18+ if they know certain topics will be discussed that the government would object to under 18s being involved in.

It's a norm that's reinforced to the point that there are very visible negative repercussions for those who ignore the law. Allegations of endangering the wellbeing minors, etc etc exist.

It gets rather sticky trying to justify not allowing individuals aged.... hmm... say 11 - 18, the right to vote, the right to be sexual with who they choose, the right to drink. Any reasoning of why they shouldn't can be attached to individuals of any age and examples of individuals who have reached the age of majority fucking up big time is available. Therefore I think it is worthwhile to question marginalization in government and many people do which is a huge reason why change is brought about in law often enough in the past and present.

Due to a statistical study that shows young men have more car accidents than any other demographic, New York State and other states allow car rental agencies to charge over $100 more to car renters aged 21-24. This is marginalization as individual driving records are not being examined. Driving history would be a fair judge of risk as opposed to the idea that someone is a risk because someone else proved to be. A blanket is simply being tossed over an entire age group. But it is backed by law and the charges stand until the law is challenged for the age discrimination it is.

~Raven~
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Join us at The Network, a social and socially aware network which connects young polys and progressive polys of all ages.



~Open up your mind and let me step inside.
Rest your weary head and let your heart decide. It's so easy.
When you know the rules.
It's so easy. All you have to do is fall in love.
Play the game.
Everybody play the game of love. Yeah...~
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