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  #101  
Old 02-05-2010, 12:32 AM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Again, I really can't help you or others with misinterpretations or the preoccupation with tacking imaginings onto other people. You either have the ability to discuss the reality or you sink into fantasy here. I'm not interested in the made up here. I also respond on this forum to others proportionate to the manner they address me and my views.
I was sincere, expressed confusion and asked you for help in understanding where you were coming from, you responded with sarcasm. How is that "proporitionate to the manner" I addressed you or your views?
And where is it that I "sink into fantasy"?


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Can I even hope you cared enough to look up marginalization?
Yes which is why I bring up that you talking down to me fits. Talking down to someone, being sarcastic in a way that paints them negatively in other people's eyes can cause
"To relegate or confine to a lower or outer limit or edge, as of social standing."
within the social environment you share with that person.

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Members seem to also find like-minded folks. I have and you have as you've shown boasting proudly about that and your PMs. It's not a big deal truly, I get PMs too. Many people here get them. It's nice that they make you feel special though.
I don't understand why you think that getting pm's makes me feel special. I was pointing out that due to several pm's expressing their confusion about what you MEAN and unwillingness to ask because of the long (more complicated) texts that follow I chose to ask you. But you didn't give a simple concise answer even when asked a simple, respectful question that also acknowledged confusion on the part of the questioner (me). You instead talked down to me and answered with yet more complicated jargon.

If I ask a doctor for him to speak "basic English" in explaining my health issues because I was confused about what he meant, I would expect that he would take a moment to figure out a simpler way to state his point, not a more or equally complicated one.

Quote:
First thank you for responding in the discussion at hand. It's a rare thing I'm finding.
I'm sorry if you find it rare, that's not a problem I've had. When I have time to be on the board-I respond to the topic at hand regularly with only a few off topic comments and those only when pertinent to the OP.
I have found in r/l that if a person insists on giving long-winded thoughts to a complicated topic when talking to people who lack comprehension-they tend to get the "i'm lost in lala land" stare and no return conversation.
With ALL due respect, I know that personally reading the font you use gives me a headache-so i try to limit myself to doing so only if you are talking specifically to me.
Additionally it seems that you tend to tear apart every sentence of every post that is directed at you, instead of just answering the basic premise and accepting examples as just examples that don't need to be addressed specifically since they aren't specific to the topic. I think this may be one reason a number of people feel that you are "interrogating" them.
There seems to be no room in conversing with you for them to speak without you analyzing each word, it's.... like being under the gun really. You may not "mean it that way" but if that's how it comes across to more than one person-it seems reasonable to assume that it's a common understanding of what those actions mean.

For example, I am "honest to a fault". I have had to learn that often times people take that honesty to mean I don't like them. So I've learned to pre-curse it with "You know I love you-but..." that way I am actively addressing their insecurities (or the potential in activities where I am in control-of them feeling marginalized) before I go on to make my point.


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What you've described, I've also seen in older poly people in their approach and behavior towards younger polys. The parallels are amazing. The superficiality regarding perceived beauty can probably be replaced with talk of inexperience and lack of worth because of that with no further examination of the younger poly as a human being.
I think this happens in the world a lot-not just to polys-but all over. It's a disgrace. It's something I personally fight against a lot in r/l in regards to age/looks. I was in management by 19 years old. I gained the respect of my employees (all much older than I) in the first week by simply letting them know that while I was an expert at the work we were doing (I had been at that company longer than all of them) they were more experienced with being in charge of thing in life and in order to succeed I would need them to help me improve at being in charge and in turn I would help them improve at the specific job we were doing.
At 30 (in management) I fought with the owner to allow 14 year olds to work for us. The argument was that they were "irresponsible". Yet the owners hadn't actually WORKED with any 14 year olds-it was just an assumption. So we compromised to allow 14 year olds to volunteer for 3 months and if they learned well and seemed responsible I could hire them on a temporary basis.
It worked well and those owners as well as MANY customers and others community members now see that in fact their age didn't guarantee that they were "bad employees" in fact they were BETTER employees then many of the older people, due to the older people having become "jaded" in life and wanting more pay/benefits etc.

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It doesn't seem that it was marginalization as there was no group to be pushed to the edges of.
A group need not be defined in order to exist.

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What sort of outreach can be done to address these biases that some poly people seem to place based in age?
As i said before-in order to really know how to reach out to address it-I need to have specifics and as I don't experience it or know anyone who does-I don't know.
BUT I'd love ideas and am willing to work on trying to implement them.
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  #102  
Old 02-05-2010, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
That's because you're 20, not because you're "poly". The younger you are, the more people you will meet that are OLDER than you. As you get older, more and more people you meet are YOUNGER than you. Yep. It's true - for everyone. Not just "poly" people.

"Welcome: to the REAL world." - Laurence Fishburne (The Matrix)
Dammit ygirl! I knew there must be a reason why I keep meeting younger people more and more! Well SHIT.

Glow-this is true. At 20 I felt SURROUNDED by older people, now at ONLY 34 (ok I added the only for my own self-esteem) I seem to spend a LOT of time around people younger than me!

I hope it's not horrible for them though-as I really really enjoy hearing their stories and talking with them!
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  #103  
Old 02-05-2010, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
Knowing that you're not specifically referring to me, I did speak pretty plainly in this thread more than once and in other threads about how to address the issue of marginalization.

One doesn't have to feel marginalized to be in the dynamic of marginalization. As I said earlier, most people don't even KNOW when they may be marginalizing others. The only way to break that dynamic is by hard and brutally honest self-examination.

I went into some very specific ways to start that process and it was ignored in this thread by everyone but Raven.

Also, I find it frustrating that people assume we think these issues important because we feel marginalized. I happen to think these issues important because I believe the mechanism of how people marginalize others is a harmful thing to society and to people, so I choose work against it. The hardest work I do is from my place of white privilege, not from feeling marginalized in some poly group for being single. But the dynamic is the same.
Well actually-I have seen you bring it up in a number of places. But I think maybe the way you put it is.........not specific enough for the "uneducated" or less educated (no offense to anyone intended).
One thing I run across A LOT in dealing with teaching people is the need to really personalize it for them, or they just don't "get" it.
When someone is asking about marginalization it helps to take a specific example (marginalization of young polys in the general poly community as an example) and identify HOW the marginalization shows up in THAT instance, how things could be changed to stop or minimize that marginalization and then step to how each individual can work on this within themself.

I think (THINK not sure) that is where the whole point is getting lost.
Some of this is "old hat" for you-as you have studied it and worked on it. But for most people (as you know) it's a "foreign concept". So the things that seem obvious-have to be stated specifically.

In this thread topic specifically-I don't see it happening, and since the thread started, I have been talking to other "young'uns" about it-from 16-38. But none of them feel that way or are aware of it either.
Ok... obviously SOMEONE SOMEWHERE is-but how do I help if I don't know them.

I know how to work on reducing marginalization GENERALLY within my community, using first self-introspection for my own prejudices and preconcieved ideas, educating others around me about the topic, talking with others and helping them see/find their internal prejudices and preconcieved ideas.
In fact I've been doing this SPECIFICALLY in helping 4 people on a daily basis-roughly 10-14 hours of my day every day, for the last three weeks in addition the hours I spend generally teaching the kids in my care-and the topic of how we treat others while OBVIOUSLY not including a word like "marginalization" does certainly IMPACT marginalization for future generations.
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  #104  
Old 02-05-2010, 01:07 AM
glowinthedarkstars glowinthedarkstars is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Dammit ygirl! I knew there must be a reason why I keep meeting younger people more and more! Well SHIT.

Glow-this is true. At 20 I felt SURROUNDED by older people, now at ONLY 34 (ok I added the only for my own self-esteem) I seem to spend a LOT of time around people younger than me!

I hope it's not horrible for them though-as I really really enjoy hearing their stories and talking with them!
after reading ygirls post i realized how dumb my post must have sounded. im not stupid okay. i know its cos im 20.

LovingRadiance, I have always had older people in my life, Ive always connected with them better in some ways.
Im sure it isnt horrible for your friends =) youre great!
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  #105  
Old 02-05-2010, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by glowinthedarkstars View Post
after reading ygirls post i realized how dumb my post must have sounded. im not stupid okay. i know its cos im 20.

LovingRadiance, I have always had older people in my life, Ive always connected with them better in some ways.
Im sure it isnt horrible for your friends =) youre great!
Glow-
you didn't sound stupid.
It was a relieving lightness of spirit.
Good for the soul!!
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  #106  
Old 02-05-2010, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
But when you (general you) say "people feel marginalized, it's a big problem and you need to do somethign about it...."

Well that's not something I can work with.
It's a matter of awareness of how human beings are connected. People are marginalized so that others may have dominance. People are oppressed so that others may have privilege. Some people lash out violently when their place in these dynamics are spoken about. Those who state "these dynamics do not exist in my world or in my area," or as you LR state that there is a problem with stating that there is a responsibility of every human being to be aware and address the roles they play in marginalizing others, well this only serves to perpetuate the problem.

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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
One doesn't have to feel marginalized to be in the dynamic of marginalization. As I said earlier, most people don't even KNOW when they may be marginalizing others. The only way to break that dynamic is by hard and brutally honest self-examination.

I went into some very specific ways to start that process and it was ignored in this thread by everyone but Raven.

Also, I find it frustrating that people assume we think these issues important because we feel marginalized. I happen to think these issues important because I believe the mechanism of how people marginalize others is a harmful thing to society and to people, so I choose work against it. The hardest work I do is from my place of white privilege, not from feeling marginalized in some poly group for being single. But the dynamic is the same.
I agree and I spoke to this point illustrating several examples where people form alliances and join groups even though the group's goal is to address the needs and experiences of people other than themselves.

There are those who genuinely care about people other than themselves and seek to stop social structures that disadvantage others while recognizing where these structures benefit them. They actively work together and work against accepting oppression as the norm they were trained to think it was. This includes stopping the replication of these structures in communities we create for ourselves such as the polyamorous community.

It is disheartening that such derision has been directed at Ceoli here because she is vocal about issues of privilege. Contrary to implications otherwise, she is entitled to voice these views and serves as a welcome ally in creating change.

It is a surprise for me to see within this forum the rejection of people joining each other across difference in this way. Even so much that it is stated that it is quite normal to be repelled by difference. It lends an undertone of dis-ingeniousness to the forum where love and acceptance is so often spoken of.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
As i said before-in order to really know how to reach out to address it-I need to have specifics and as I don't experience it or know anyone who does-I don't know.
BUT I'd love ideas and am willing to work on trying to implement them.
All right. Does this justify belittling others' choose to address the issue?

~Raven~
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  #107  
Old 02-05-2010, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I was sincere, expressed confusion and asked you for help in understanding where you were coming from, you responded with sarcasm. How is that "proporitionate to the manner" I addressed you or your views?
And where is it that I "sink into fantasy"?

Yes which is why I bring up that you talking down to me fits. Talking down to someone, being sarcastic in a way that paints them negatively in other people's eyes can cause
"To relegate or confine to a lower or outer limit or edge, as of social standing."
within the social environment you share with that person.
My response is your own post:
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
LMAO. Seriously LMAO Mono!
I think you hit the nail on the head with the masking of a different issue.
It's too clear that the "youngun's here are repeating that they don't feel marginalized, so evidently it's not an age issue HERE. It COULD BE somewhere else-but not here and now where you are and not where I am either.

On the other hand it seems obvious that there is a lot of contention also being masked as "well no... you just don't understand..." As I said to GG today amidst tears and strife-if you aren't REAL with someone, upfront and honest about your TRUEST needs/intentions/emotions, then you can't possibly expecte them to understand. So all of this clear contention that isn't identified openly and honestly is pretty........boring to me.
Yes I said boring.
I'm all for fixing issues-but at this point it would seem that the "issue" brought up by this thread, either doesn't exist in this environment (per the responses from the "youngun's who aren't experiencing it) or they are full of crap (no offense intended) and saying that they "feel fine" when they don't.
As there is no way for us to FOR SURE know one way or the other, maybe it's time to move on to topics that DO pertain.... Because as you pointed out-all of this theoretic blah blah is just making the "poly community" look ridiculous on a large scale.
I know I was medicated and under duress-but it seems to me that all of this started with an argument over wether or nor poly included swinging and/or fuck buddies. That argument proved futile as the general concensus was that no one could come to an agreement and so we've moved on to age...
WHO CARES?????
We're freaking PEOPLE as River said, WE'RE ALL JUST F'ING PEOPLE ON PLANET EARTH so lets just agree that there ARE different types of people doing different types of things, with different types of goals, intentions, desires, fears, loves, hurts etc and THAT is ok.

And while we're on the topic-if we're going to keep throwing around the word Marginalization-can someone just start a thread on what the hell marginalization IS so we can come to some sort of understanding on THAT?
Because so far I've read REPEATED posts on "I don't feel or see marginalization of this that or the other kind" in my community and a handful of posts saying it's a huge problem.
LR, you expressed your total lack of respect for those in this thread who were trying to address the issue of marginalization. You stated some other issue was being masked by the topic of marginalization, dismissing the views raised as "real" as opposed to whatever you're imagining lies beneath. That is fantasy and utterly ignoring actual questions and topics raised. You could also state that everyone here are actually octopi masquerading as human beings. It would be no less disconnected or based in fantasy.

You stated that the perceived appearance of the poly community as "ridiculous" should somehow influence whether these issues are addressed. That's superficial.

Somehow you managed to ignore those who did say they have felt marginalized based on age. There are those who stated they did not feel marginalized but were concerned about others who did. There were some who refrained from stating whether they felt marginalized at all. For you to then tell others maybe it's time to move on to topics that "DO pertain" as though marginalization does not, because to you it does not seem to be an issue within this forum (where of course it is) is condescending and dismissive.

Yeah, it is easy to blithely and glibly say, we're all people and we should agree that their are different types of people. However many have to struggle every day simply for being different. They are marginalized. They don't usually gain the rights to a full life unless others understand their struggle, the part we all play in that struggle, and seek to stop the prejudices that reinforce marginalization alongside them. Small scale or large.

Is it really then a surprise to be treated in the dismissive haughty way you've treated others because the topic doesn't matter to you? Why should you not be treated in the manner you've addressed this thread and those who participate in it?

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I don't understand why you think that getting pm's makes me feel special. I was pointing out that due to several pm's expressing their confusion about what you MEAN and unwillingness to ask because of the long (more complicated) texts that follow I chose to ask you. But you didn't give a simple concise answer even when asked a simple, respectful question that also acknowledged confusion on the part of the questioner (me). You instead talked down to me and answered with yet more complicated jargon.
It was reminiscent of poisonous tactics some indulge in. He said, she said. And you showed the need to repeat it more than once as though it was important. I simply stated it wasn't really as we all get PMs. Surely you do not think you and I alone share the views we've expressed here. It does not surprise me that others agree with me or disagree with me. But it seems to be of high value for you.

Perhaps you feel your views are strengthened somehow by whispers outside the open forum. PMs have no relevance to the topic being discussed and you've yet to show a reason why they should have significance. I don't address shadowy figures (or introduce them lol) anymore than I address fantastical motives that have been brought into this discussion from who knows where. I respond to what is actually said not rumored. For someone who speaks about the "real" you've brought a lot of shallowness to the foreground.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
If I ask a doctor for him to speak "basic English" in explaining my health issues because I was confused about what he meant, I would expect that he would take a moment to figure out a simpler way to state his point, not a more or equally complicated one.

I'm sorry if you find it rare, that's not a problem I've had. When I have time to be on the board-I respond to the topic at hand regularly with only a few off topic comments and those only when pertinent to the OP.
I have found in r/l that if a person insists on giving long-winded thoughts to a complicated topic when talking to people who lack comprehension-they tend to get the "i'm lost in lala land" stare and no return conversation.
With ALL due respect, I know that personally reading the font you use gives me a headache-so i try to limit myself to doing so only if you are talking specifically to me.
Additionally it seems that you tend to tear apart every sentence of every post that is directed at you, instead of just answering the basic premise and accepting examples as just examples that don't need to be addressed specifically since they aren't specific to the topic. I think this may be one reason a number of people feel that you are "interrogating" them.
There seems to be no room in conversing with you for them to speak without you analyzing each word, it's.... like being under the gun really. You may not "mean it that way" but if that's how it comes across to more than one person-it seems reasonable to assume that it's a common understanding of what those actions mean.

For example, I am "honest to a fault". I have had to learn that often times people take that honesty to mean I don't like them. So I've learned to pre-curse it with "You know I love you-but..." that way I am actively addressing their insecurities (or the potential in activities where I am in control-of them feeling marginalized) before I go on to make my point.
Perhaps it's my turn to get bored. I don't deal with others in a shallow manner. I suppose it then follows that I don't deal well with shallow and/or self unaware people. I do not feel a need to sugar coat my views. I believe people have personal responsibility to deal with their faults and shortcomings and not constantly have others deal for them. I know I do not understand everything therefore I make an effort to know. I do not blame others when I do not. This includes knowing other people and understanding their views as well as being aware of the world. I don't get general or "basic" when it comes to something serious like that. I don't lie or pretend. We are all different here. Obviously what we feel is needed in this discussion (which isn't about cake if you haven't noticed) and in life varies. Therefore I'm going to reject your characterization and you are free to reject mine. I wish you joy in the unexamined life, ignorance is bliss, skimming the surface approach.

*laughs* Whoo. "A number of people." "More than one person." Funny enough to be sad with the he said she said.

I also don't feel the need to justify or validate myself through other people.

This is where I get off on the degenerating spiral into nowhere and return to the topic of marginalization with those who wish to talk about it and methods of addressing it.

~Raven~
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Last edited by Ravenesque; 02-05-2010 at 02:59 AM.
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  #108  
Old 02-05-2010, 03:07 AM
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MonoVCPHG MonoVCPHG is offline
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There are 1,525, members on this forum and 322 active members. Would all those who feel marginalized as young polies please say something. Perhaps this is a valid topic, perhaps it is in the mind of a limited few, so I'm begging you....if you feel marginalized say something so the rest of us can at least feel there is actually a problem here. Pretty, pretty please

My frustration with this topic is that no one seems to be admitting that they feel marginalized because of their youth. And no one seems to be able to concisely explain what the fuck that means.

I'm editting to expand on my request - I am not that smart - I want an example...a real world, tangible, already occured, occuring event.
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  #109  
Old 02-05-2010, 04:15 AM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Glow-
you didn't sound stupid.
It was a relieving lightness of spirit.
Good for the soul!!
Glow - your post didn't sound stupid and my response was not intended to "make you feel" stupid. I apologize if it came across that way.

At the risk of sounding even MORE condescending (which is also not the intent), I felt the same way when I was your age (that everyone around me was older).



Quote:
Quoth the Raven:

There are those who genuinely care about people other than themselves and seek to stop social structures that disadvantage others while recognizing where these structures benefit them. They actively work together and work against accepting oppression as the norm they were trained to think it was. This includes stopping the replication of these structures in communities we create for ourselves such as the polyamorous community.
Raven - it's obvious to me that you consider those of us not part of the solution as being part of the problem. You have every right to think so, but not all of us can or want to be as "active" about this in the same area. I am dealing with the same sort of thing when it comes to working with feline rescue. That is the battle I have chosen. Some days it's all I can do to just keep them clean and fed. I hate it when I go somewhere to relax and end up having to expend energy to educate people. However, I am happy when I just hear that someone got their damn cat spayed or neutered and they're not following me with an icepick and hammer while I'm sticking my fingers in the dyke (and not in the fun way either). I do not feel compelled to recruit others into my "cause".

I'm not saying you're here to "recruit" people, but you really do need to acknowledge that other people's priorities in life might be different from fighting against ageism, racism, mono-poly-isms, whatever.

And you MIGHT want to consider using a different font and/or color because the ones you use also give me a headache (and no, I haven't been PM'ing with LR about you) the same way it does when someone writes in all caps. But far be it from me to cramp your style.

That is all. Carry on.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 02-05-2010 at 04:33 AM.
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  #110  
Old 02-05-2010, 04:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
There are 1,525, members on this forum and 322 active members. Would all those who feel marginalized as young polies please say something. Perhaps this is a valid topic, perhaps it is in the mind of a limited few, so I'm begging you....if you feel marginalized say something so the rest of us can at least feel there is actually a problem here. Pretty, pretty please

My frustration with this topic is that no one seems to be admitting that they feel marginalized because of their youth. And no one seems to be able to concisely explain what the fuck that means.

I'm editting to expand on my request - I am not that smart - I want an example...a real world, tangible, already occured, occuring event.
Just wanted to say that I'm in the age group in question and in no way feel maginalized. The poly community in my city has been one of the most welcoming places I have ever been

-Derby
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