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  #91  
Old 02-04-2010, 05:28 AM
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Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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I agree about the hate Mono. Don't agree about the exclusivity. It is usually linked to prejudice and hate. People have the right to do lots of things. Doesn't mean the negative motives behind those won't be discussed.

I have found that different poly TNG groups have a wealth of goals in addition to (that lovely phrase again) gathering people who hold similar perspectives and/or are within the same generation. Many have allies outside of the age group as well, which is perhaps part of why I do not understand the point laid down by GS that it is normal not to be involved or drawn to groups which are targeted towards people who aren't... you. I'm used to people linking up across difference and not being turned off and driven away by it. I'd hate to think it was a generational thing.


You lost me on the rest Mono. What does it have to do with me if you're saying it's not the case for me?

I do believe that having poly spaces where all experiences and views can be expressed and those who express them treated with integrity and dignity is important.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Unfortunately-even whilst complaining that I didn't answer your questions (wasn't aware you had asked me any-but I'll go back and reread after I hit post) you didn't answer mine.
Probably didn't answer while expressing my frustration at your own preceding lack of answer. Perhaps you now understand the feeling. It seems to be an epidemic here when others ask for discussion but don't actually want to discuss judging by the response/non-response.
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
He already did-I was asking you what your point was. I wasn't confused about his
Why do you seem confused that we are talking about marginalization within this thread then?
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
They carry the same attitude, same arguments, same theories, and intriquingly they both continue to have a feeling of "sides".
Did they? Conceivably there are intersections between the topics when it comes to issues of exclusivity and bias again. But I find it hard to believe the arguments were the same about two different topics.
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
If that's how you feel about it-why did you ask me specific questions? I don't understand.
It was my mistake LR believe me. I assumed incorrectly you posted to this thread because you wished to engage in the discussion before you exclaimed the who cares bit amongst other things. I think the best of others' intentions until they prove otherwise.
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I am still not sure why you feel like we are on opposing sides, or that others on this board on are opposing sides from you.
You're choice of words in your posts lead many to believe that you are somehow angry or caustic about the things we say-but I speak for a number of us when I say-we don't know why.

I'm not a caustic person and I think my history of posts shows that clearly enough. So I chose to take it upon myself to ask-thinking that might in turn bring about an answer to what it is we are doing that seems to lead to you lecturing us on our apparent inability and unwillingness to accept the mistreated, abused and different minorities in our societies...
because we don't see as how we are failling to accept or to support or to fight for those people.
You seem to be projecting feelings on to me. Another widespread problem here it seems. I've not stated that there were sides. These come across as assumptions. Not based in fact. And not seeming to address the topic at all. I've asked questions to ascertain others' view in regards to marginalization and young polys because I'd rather hear real opinions, standpoints and experience that brought those opinions into being. Based on this do I discuss with others as opposed to making up what I think others are thinking or feeling. If that is being characterized as caustic and lecturing, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not going to take responsibility for others' discomfort at having a serious discussion that encourages self-reflection and actually knowing other people rather than going on what you heard about them.

Stating that others speak to you in PM and agree with your view does not lend any more weight to your words and I still do not understand the significance. PMs are not in open forum and as I don't place mine out into the open forum, I really don't care what is said in others PMs. Have fun.

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Originally Posted by lovefromgirl View Post
In order of... mmm, personal effect?
Ah. So not based in the actual discussion.
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Originally Posted by lovefromgirl View Post
So just as I wouldn't call myself sexist if I chose to write about men, I don't think of myself or anyone else here as ageist for choosing to belong to an all-ages group -- or not choosing to belong to an all-ages group.
No one stated people are ageist for being in an "all-ages" group. Where are you getting that from?
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Originally Posted by lovefromgirl View Post
Regarding the possibility of brainwashing: Certain parties have expressed that I might not be entirely my own woman in discussions like this one -- specifically, that I'm CielDuMatin's personal yes-girl. Those parties are wrong. Just clarifying that in case those parties feel the need to dismiss me as some crazed crusader for my beloved.
That's truly unfortunate for you lovefromgirl. And that you feel the need to prove that point to others in order to be taken seriously is sad. I didn't see that accusation lobbed within this thread so I don't see the relevance. But good luck with that.
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Regarding the poly world not hating us: I see you behaving rather like it hates you because of your age. From what I see on this forum, nope, it really doesn't. Maybe I'm misinterpreting words on a screen yet again. It's so easy to do.

Make any sense now?
Nope. I see another projection not rooted in anything I've said. Perhaps you are misinterpreting words. I can't help you with your misconceptions only with the fact of what was actually said. Concrete over ephemeral when it comes to discussion. I don't make up things. I ask others questions to get the fact, not the imagined.

~Raven~
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  #92  
Old 02-04-2010, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
What are you talking about redpepper?



There is hoping for change and there is taking action and creating change.

No answers have been offered. No examination of how to work towards inclusiveness and address marginalization within the poly community has been done. No effort at finding out the purpose behind the creation of young poly groups has been shown.

What has been done a million times is dismissal that a problem might exist and negativity has been attached to young polyamorists. Assumptions were made. Lack of information was shown.

Were you going to offer any insight about young poly groups? Based on your interactions with them, what have you discovered about the purpose and missions of these groups? Have you found that marginalization is an issue addressed by them? What methods would you suggest in creating a more inclusive and welcoming poly community?

~Raven~
After I have written this I intend to go elsewhere as this is going no where and I have wasted a lot of my precious time trying to understand and reach out to you Raven. I see others doing that and there has been no result... it's time to move on for me and actually go where I make a difference.

In answer to you first question...? What I am talking about is in terms of your discontent that seems to come from the fact that you disagreed with some group you attended for whatever reason and now seem to, thread after thread, be on some kind of personal crusade to discredit anyone associated with it. I have no idea what happened for you and I can respect that you are hurting, but to come on here and purposely destroy the flavour of love, support, serenity, mutual respect, and openness of this forum by threatening to discredit anyone that is not some superstar at terms such as "marginalization," "privilege" and a variety of words that come from a privileged education and intelligence is not okay with me.

I personally don't answer because I don't want to be faced with a sarcastic, defiant, and smug response. For me I have no need to answer because I am pretty sure I know why you feel marginalized and not included... why you felt you should make your own young poly group and that is because your attitude sucks as far as I'm concerned and I suspect that no one wants to tell you that because you manipulate what they say and throw it back in their face. You are a smart woman Raven, I admire you for that, but I have no intention of talking to you if your replies come with the smart ass attitude you have portrayed towards me. The negativity you feel has been your own creation. It has NOT come from me, and I will NOT take it on. Yes I assume this and yes I may be ill informed, but if I am not going to hear the honest and open truth about why we are talking about this then fuck it....I'm done.

I am not going to be welcoming to you anymore Raven. I have been. I am not going to offer you insight to my opinion on young poly groups because I have already. You haven't seemed to notice and I wonder if it's because you are not willing to listen to anything that doesn't conform to your agenda.

I would suggest that in order to be inclusive and welcoming to people in the poly community that one be a gracious host to those that are new... that doesn't mean skirting issues or not being honest about my opinion, but to give my hard earned wisdom and knowledge in as much an empathetic way as I know how....

If anyone object to that then I suggest that you don't engage me in a conversation unless it comes from a place of accepting my differences, sharing yours and respecting a process of getting to know each other from a place of mutual respect.
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  #93  
Old 02-04-2010, 06:04 AM
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Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Raven-I found your questions-fyi-your sarcasm about me not being able to answer-is one way to treat a person like they are less than you are. It's another way of marginalizing them. Had you NOT been assuming I was a bitch or a moron (one way or the other) you could have treated me with the presumption that I MUST have missed something. Instead you chose to talk down to me, leading the idea that you think I'm less than you are.
Is this not marginalization on a small scale-and are you (and Ceoli) not trying to fight against?
Again, I really can't help you or others with misinterpretations or the preoccupation with tacking imaginings onto other people. You either have the ability to discuss the reality or you sink into fantasy here. I'm not interested in the made up here. I also respond on this forum to others proportionate to the manner they address me and my views.

Can I even hope you cared enough to look up marginalization? As far as I can see, this forum has been amazingly open for the most part and no one has been pushed to the edges for their views but have been able to express them fully. Members seem to also find like-minded folks. I have and you have as you've shown boasting proudly about that and your PMs. It's not a big deal truly, I get PMs too. Many people here get them. It's nice that they make you feel special though.
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
The behave as though the people who are older can't understand what they are talking about, talk about how stupid they are, talk about how they don't practice poly relationships "right" (whatever that is), that they are unattractive and therefore aren't REALLY worthy of being part of the poly-community as it only "detracts" from the "quality" of options.
First thank you for responding in the discussion at hand. It's a rare thing I'm finding.

What you've described, I've also seen in older poly people in their approach and behavior towards younger polys. The parallels are amazing. The superficiality regarding perceived beauty can probably be replaced with talk of inexperience and lack of worth because of that with no further examination of the younger poly as a human being.
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I don't think I would consider "not interacting" necessarily marginalization. I don't always interact with every person I see in a social group (for example on here, I don't have time to personally address every person, every time I log in). However-they were clear that due to being older they were unattractive and due to being unattractive they were a detriment to the community.


Nope-there hasn't been a DEFINED "poly group" in our state until it was started by LuvnWonder a couple weeks ago-and that is (as I said already) all "older people" except for myself, my boyfriend and my sister.
It doesn't seem that it was marginalization as there was no group to be pushed to the edges of. But many of these behaviors and attitudes are those that exist behind those who do run groups. It is a prejudice that is not beneficial within any community. It seems most here agree about that. What sort of outreach can be done to address these biases that some poly people seem to place based in age?

~Raven~
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  #94  
Old 02-04-2010, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
After I have written this I intend to go elsewhere as this is going no where and I have wasted a lot of my precious time trying to understand and reach out to you Raven. I see others doing that and there has been no result... it's time to move on for me and actually go where I make a difference.

In answer to you first question...? What I am talking about is in terms of your discontent that seems to come from the fact that you disagreed with some group you attended for whatever reason and now seem to, thread after thread, be on some kind of personal crusade to discredit anyone associated with it. I have no idea what happened for you and I can respect that you are hurting, but to come on here and purposely destroy the flavour of love, support, serenity, mutual respect, and openness of this forum by threatening to discredit anyone that is not some superstar at terms such as "marginalization," "privilege" and a variety of words that come from a privileged education and intelligence is not okay with me.

I personally don't answer because I don't want to be faced with a sarcastic, defiant, and smug response. For me I have no need to answer because I am pretty sure I know why you feel marginalized and not included... why you felt you should make your own young poly group and that is because your attitude sucks as far as I'm concerned and I suspect that no one wants to tell you that because you manipulate what they say and throw it back in their face. You are a smart woman Raven, I admire you for that, but I have no intention of talking to you if your replies come with the smart ass attitude you have portrayed towards me. The negativity you feel has been your own creation. It has NOT come from me, and I will NOT take it on. Yes I assume this and yes I may be ill informed, but if I am not going to hear the honest and open truth about why we are talking about this then fuck it....I'm done.

I am not going to be welcoming to you anymore Raven. I have been. I am not going to offer you insight to my opinion on young poly groups because I have already. You haven't seemed to notice and I wonder if it's because you are not willing to listen to anything that doesn't conform to your agenda.

I would suggest that in order to be inclusive and welcoming to people in the poly community that one be a gracious host to those that are new... that doesn't mean skirting issues or not being honest about my opinion, but to give my hard earned wisdom and knowledge in as much an empathetic way as I know how....

If anyone object to that then I suggest that you don't engage me in a conversation unless it comes from a place of accepting my differences, sharing yours and respecting a process of getting to know each other from a place of mutual respect.
Don't be such a hypocrite redpepper. When it suits you, you are as sarcastic and condescending, and snide as you wish as are others. You conveniently play victim to place others in the role of 'attacker' when their views and expression differ from yours. Or the ease and alacrity with which they express themselves is what you resentfully feel is better than your own. Now you create motives to devalue others' opinions? That's a nasty attitude to have and I've stayed above sinking so low when you have no trouble doing so. If that is your welcoming, I don't think I will miss it or weep for the loss of your insight. It was a wonder you removed your own post which was filled with patronizing towards younger polys in regards to their sexuality at the start of this thread.

If you feel this thread is purposefully discrediting people or a particular group, I suggest you take it up with the moderators. I've not seen any groups highlighted here except CPN TNG. The "term" of marginalization was brought up by CdM. It's part of the topic. Differing views were expressed about the topic raised. Beyond that I'm not sure what fever dream you're speaking about and why you are so fixated on this fantasy but I'm done responding to what you feel like making up. I won't take on your (or others') delusional crap because my expression doesn't fit what you think expression should be.

I am entitled to voice my views just as others here are entitled to the same. I'll utilize that right and support others' doing the same. If that bothers you, tough.

~Raven~
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~Open up your mind and let me step inside.
Rest your weary head and let your heart decide. It's so easy.
When you know the rules.
It's so easy. All you have to do is fall in love.
Play the game.
Everybody play the game of love. Yeah...~

Last edited by Ravenesque; 02-04-2010 at 07:06 AM.
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  #95  
Old 02-04-2010, 06:01 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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Yaa - I think I'm going to give up on this too.
From the beginning I've sensed there was some agenda being pursued here but didn't want to 'call' it and start trouble in the event there was something legitimate that might surface. I can't document this but it seems it may have started in NY somewhere ? And someone chose to bring it here - for what reason I'm not sure. But there are people who just seem to feed on fighting & discontent. Causing trouble for trouble's sake. Who knows.....

But it seems nothing has surfaced about any true marginalization in the poly (overall) community based on age.
And it does seem likely that some people have some legitimate desire to 'group' together based on common desire for developing a better dating/sex pool - common social activities etc. But that has little to do with the larger aspects of poly living or the overall poly community. It's just one aspect of it. And that's fine. I just like to revisit what several others have echoed about hoping for an "AND" vs an "OR.

We've all been 'marginalized' at some point in our lives or careers - sometimes justifiably - sometimes not. But it's always beneficial when we feel that, to do a little honest digging and adjust accordingly. But that whole discussion is sort of beyond the scope of a targeted forum like this unless we can discover where it particularly applies. And it seems we've not done that here.

Oh well........

GS
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  #96  
Old 02-04-2010, 06:19 PM
glowinthedarkstars glowinthedarkstars is offline
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I just turned 20 and I am in the poly community (i guess), Its a little strange only because most everyone I meet is older than me.
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Old 02-04-2010, 06:25 PM
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I just turned 20 and I am in the poly community (i guess), Its a little strange only because most everyone I meet is older than me.
That's because you're 20, not because you're "poly". The younger you are, the more people you will meet that are OLDER than you. As you get older, more and more people you meet are YOUNGER than you. Yep. It's true - for everyone. Not just "poly" people.

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  #98  
Old 02-04-2010, 11:45 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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I'm curious about all the PMing that seems to be going on about Raven outside of the thread.

And I also think her frustration is legitimate. She was clearly not listened to in this thread. I'm wondering if people decided to paint everything she says through a lens of the conflict she may have had in NY.

And I have to admit, it never seemed people in this thread were terribly interested in really getting into addressing the idea of marginalization...probably because they don't believe it exists. At least that's the impression I got.

This is sadly too familiar a dynamic I've seen on this board.
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  #99  
Old 02-04-2010, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I'm curious about all the PMing that seems to be going on about Raven outside of the thread.

And I also think her frustration is legitimate. She was clearly not listened to in this thread. I'm wondering if people decided to paint everything she says through a lens of the conflict she may have had in NY.

And I have to admit, it never seemed people in this thread were terribly interested in really getting into addressing the idea of marginalization...probably because they don't believe it exists. At least that's the impression I got.

This is sadly too familiar a dynamic I've seen on this board.
Never knew where Raven was from or that there was a conflict relating to it. NY is a far cry from Alaska. I think there is a lot less conflict overall here then other places.

In fact I was at a funeral yesterday and the man was speaking about how his parents moved here SPECIFICALLY because there just aren't issues of racism, sexism etc up here like there are in the states. Having lived here my whole life-that limits some of what I can OFFER in a conversation like this-but it DOES NOT limit the amount of interest or care I have.

One of the issues I have with Raven is that every time I express that I don't understand something or that I don't experience something she reacts to me as though I am full of shit. This is one reason I stopped engaging in conversation with her-until several people expressed concern and confusion and I thought-well it can't hurt to ASK-so I did here.

Maybe the big issue is that just because we don't EXPERIENCE marginalization doesn't mean we don't want to help-but since we DON'T we need those who do (like you Ceoli, or Raven or others) to expand on what is going on because without that we can't identify what we can functionally do in our lives to help.

Even with donations to Haiti-someone says "this has occurred and this is what we need to help these people."
AH-ok I can do some of those things.
But when you (general you) say "people feel marginalized, it's a big problem and you need to do somethign about it...."

Well that's not something I can work with.
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  #100  
Old 02-05-2010, 12:02 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
But when you (general you) say "people feel marginalized, it's a big problem and you need to do somethign about it...."

Well that's not something I can work with.
Knowing that you're not specifically referring to me, I did speak pretty plainly in this thread more than once and in other threads about how to address the issue of marginalization.

One doesn't have to feel marginalized to be in the dynamic of marginalization. As I said earlier, most people don't even KNOW when they may be marginalizing others. The only way to break that dynamic is by hard and brutally honest self-examination.

I went into some very specific ways to start that process and it was ignored in this thread by everyone but Raven.

Also, I find it frustrating that people assume we think these issues important because we feel marginalized. I happen to think these issues important because I believe the mechanism of how people marginalize others is a harmful thing to society and to people, so I choose work against it. The hardest work I do is from my place of white privilege, not from feeling marginalized in some poly group for being single. But the dynamic is the same.
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