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  #31  
Old 01-23-2010, 02:01 PM
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Quote:Originally Posted by midnightsun He's devastated and fears it means the end of our marriage. He recognizes now what he did, what it did to me, and what he/we have lost in our marriage because of it. The bond he & I had during sex was sacred to him... yet at the same time he didn't recognize that it was no longer there for me.
Time to stop being "devastated" and start working. Work is the ONLY way it's going to get fixed.
What I was trying to get to with this was whether the thing that seems obvious to us - that the primary relationship/marriage has essentially broken down, or whether he was blaming you and everyone else for things going wrong. I have experience of some of the more controlling types not taking any responsibility for their own actions, and instead blaming the world for them having a crappy life.

If he is devastated, then you are at a place where you can both look into putting the effort and work into trying to fix things between you - I would definitely recommend professional help with this, both individually and as a couple. This will help give you the tools you need to really start working on all of the issues that have been laid out here.
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  #32  
Old 01-23-2010, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
How do you define "comfortable"?
How does HE define "comfortable"?
Because if you both define it as (that list you made of 3 things) then I don't see where you would have a problem if you were told to take an opportunity to be with someone who met those 3 requirements...
LR,
This was an EXCELLENT post and detailed analysis ! Surprised it fit - learned something there.

But as part of this post you keyed on something that concerned me also that I didn't think there was room to get into and that might be premature & distracting. Maybe now - after a number of people have added so many important points it can come out a bit more.
Because I've seen this be a BIG source of confusion for couples trying to navigate poly, swinging, open relationships etc.

MS-
We all at some point in this lifestyle set up visions of what a 'perfect/ideal' or even 'acceptable' new partner would be like. At some point in time someone - or everyone - begins to realize that maybe this 'ideal' might be rare or unrealistic. This is REALLY common ! Almost standard.
MS - you and Stewy hit that point.
Now...........what to do ?????
When you hit that wall you are basically left with a few options....
1> Hold to the ideal and become increasingly frustrated & disharmonious - not a good thing
2> Throw in the towel and abandon the lifestyle entirely (some do)
3> Re-evaluate the expectations and what you REALLY are in the lifestyle for and possibly 'adjust' the criteria

It appears(?) you guys opted for choice #3

And as LR so aptly noted - this is where the discussions get deep & important. You absolutely must be on the same page and speaking the same language here.
Where I became concerned in your original post was when I saw where it appeared (?) you had worked on this and come to an agreement that "COMFORTABLE" was sufficient and that "IDEAL" might lead nowhere.
And as LR in her quote above also picked up on - what in fact IS 'comfortable' ??? It's clear that comfortable is NOT 'ideal' (i.e. your 3 ideal conditions). But what was/is it ?

If it's any help, this is an issue we've struggled with also. And I don't know of anyone involved in any of the alternative lifestyles that hasn't. But if you think about it - this is really no different than the struggle we go through trying to connect to a primary partner. So the process is worth analyzing & mastering.
And we've seen all of the mentioned options chosen !
We in fact have tried all 3 !!!
We finally settled on #3 but I can tell you that that's not easy either and is constantly evolving as we learn more about ourselves and other people. But we look on that as a positive rather than a negative. We talked quite a bit about this last night in fact. You sometimes end up in situations that don't work out 'ideally' but still - if your criteria are well selected - can bring you (and others) together at some level that would not have happened otherwise. And there's always knowledge gained.

Choices, choices, choices.........

But to finish, from your (MS) orig. post it's not really clear whether you guys REALLY processed this in this manner. Some posters read that you actually didn't and that you were basically coerced (and you hint at that on one hand?) into throwing out any or all of your 'standards'. Others seemed to read that you were part of the process and made your own 'choice' (you alluded to that too).
So I really didn't know how to address this until now and this post is really intended to bring this whole process to light for discussion as much as to address you in particular.
Because it's something we all seem to have to deal with unless we are just dumb lucky enough to stumble into option 1 right from the get-go. And that IS rare.
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  #33  
Old 01-23-2010, 03:56 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
If EITHER of you (or BOTH of you) are making demands that create an "impossiblity" for the other to "explore" sexually with others without "breaking your rules for them"-you are playing a very unhealthy game of manipulation.
(this is worthy of a WHOLE other thread so I'll drop it for now)
We DO have a whole other thread about this:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1735

And thank you LR for taking the time and effort to write that LONG 5-part answer. This is one of the reasons we like to refer new people to older threads - you wouldn't want to type that in again would you?

I'm going to link to this in "Golden Nuggets" so folks can find it easier in the future.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 01-23-2010 at 04:02 PM.
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  #34  
Old 01-23-2010, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
We DO have a whole other thread about this:

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1735

And thank you LR for taking the time and effort to write that LONG 5-part answer. This is one of the reasons we like to refer new people to older threads - you wouldn't want to type that in again would you?

I'm going to link to this in "Golden Nuggets" so folks can find it easier in the future.
Thanks Ygirl, I had no doubt that there was a thread on that. Just was way too deep in my writing to look for the link right then.
And HELL NO I don't want to rewrite that! I worked for like 3 hours on that. (maybe I ought go back to bed?)
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  #35  
Old 01-24-2010, 01:42 AM
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I just wanted to say MS that you have been given a great gift here. You have been given the gift of insight. Not all women in your position are given that gift. Use it now. Listen to your friend and seek some help. Both of you.

All is not lost and I wish for you strength and some peace when you finally realize you completed a long journey. There are some great gifts coming along the way and the biggest one will be finding yourself...

Go take the journey now and work hard. I'm rooting for you.
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  #36  
Old 01-24-2010, 05:02 AM
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Ygirl posted this on another thread, but it's very valid in probably 3/4's of the "problem" threads on here.
So I copied it here too.

Quote:
Write this 5000 times:

"Poly relationships are just like mono relationships except there are more people involved."
Being in a one-on-one dynamic does not mean it won't be abusive or unhealthy, just as being in a multi-dynamic does not mean everyone gets their "needs met".
Mono wrote this on another thread-it sums up the concept I was speaking about (and Lemondrop noted first) about people seeing you not take care of yourself.
He's not talking about THAT, but his point is identical.
IF you allow someone to take advantage of you (or anyone else) then you are condoning their behavior by your lack of action.
The "you're either with me or you're against me" concept,
if you do nothing-you are against me.

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I do not associate having affairs with polyamorous behaviour, nor do I associate them with monogamous behaviour...I associate them with destructive behaviour. This is my experience, my observation, my opinion. Would I be a child molester if my partner was? No. Am I directly hurting that child? No…but turning a blind eye to that would be hurting that child. Turning a blind eye to that would be perpetuating and enabling that behaviour. Nothing would be learned and lives would be damaged.
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Last edited by NeonKaos; 01-24-2010 at 03:09 PM. Reason: merge posts
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  #37  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:22 PM
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Default Clarification, introspection and revalations...

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
It sounds like you made it clear from the beginning that you have certain criteria for having sexual relationships with people.
Yes, and no. After much reflection and much discussion with him about how we started into the "poly" world, I had expressed that I didn't want casual, short term relationships. He agreed. We initially only considered taking relationships to a sexual level if I felt attracted to them and felt a "chemistry." The problem was in the 2nd experience we had... I did most of the discussion via email with the "Dom" of the couple, and connected to him INTELLECTUALLY. But when I met them (the first time on my own because Stewy was out of town) I only felt a sexual attraction and personal bond with the woman/sub. The first sexual interraction was only between me & her, with some limited kissing between me & him. I did NOT want to take it any further with him... but was fascinated by her and deeply desired to explore my bi-sexuality further. Stewy expressed how erotic he would find it if I slept with the Dom, however he AND the Dom both made it clear it was only if I wanted to.

*I* knew it would please them both and *I* pushed myself into it because I felt it was "package" deal and I wanted to primarily make my husband AND the woman/sub happy. To clarify, the "sub" is submissive to men, dominant with women. I didn't see her as a sub, I felt the immediate attraction of someone who was clearly dominant to me. And I was also instantly insecure that she was sexual with me because her Dom "told" her to, not because she WANTED to be. (*ding* *ding* *ding*)

Red flag there. Obviously I was seeking her approval.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
You should of done some research into D/s before hand. Anyone starting out should.
Yes. Hindsight being 20/20, I should've done that. The Dom mentioned above told my husband to spend time educating himself on BDSM. I mistakenly put that WHOLE responsibility on him and didn't fathom the responsibility I had to educate myself on being a sub.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
You were not being "picky" you were listening to your self at that point and that deserved some respect. He didn't respect that. He disrespected you. He didn't cherish your safety, he abused his authority over you.
This is where I think I portrayed things incorrectly in my original post. When things didn't work out with the couple I mentioned above, he started pushing to find another couple. I had a bad taste in my mouth from the experience we'd just had and knew I wanted to move slower this time, which would be an intensive process that would require a lot of effort etc. I told him I wasn't interested in starting anything new with anyone, but he was welcome to start a relationship on his own with a man/woman/couple in order to get his needs filled... whatever he'd like.

Issue #1 was that he made it clear what he WANTED was for me to be involved too. And issue #2 was that he didn't respect my requests to be left alone. He met a woman and then three more couples (over the course of two years) and naturally they wanted to make sure he was being honest about having my permission & blessing for him to be involved in a relationship without me. So, I found myself dragged into phone conversations I didn't have the time or patience for, emails, text messages, and IM conversations I didn't feel like having. And inevitably, the man or the woman or both would end up being intrigued and attracted to me and want my involvement which put me in the position of having to say, "No." and hurting or upsetting them.

I hate saying no to people, so I just don't start things or go looking for relationships until I've already MET someone and already sense a connection. Each and every time I said, "No," Stewy completely respected that and NEVER at any point coerced me into doing anything with any of those couples. But he complained about it, a lot! LOL! I still felt pressured and felt he wasn't respecting a boundary I had put in place. We didn't have a written set of boundaries, which made it harder for us I think because we weren't as aware of them as they changed (which some did.) For example, initially I wasn't ok with him having a relationship with a woman that didn't involve me. Later I was. I'm sure that was perplexing to him on more than one occassion.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
He should never of dictated that you should take any "opportunity" that comes along if you were telling him you weren't comfortable.
That happened very early on when he gave me permission to have sexual encounters with men I met if I felt "comfortable" with them. He let me define what comfortable meant to me, but still expressed that he found it to be a turn on. In re-evaluating what has been going on in our marriage, I see now that I pushed MYSELF into situations I normally would not have (if single) in order to gain his approval and please him.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Essentially he has prostituted you out.
Actually, it would be much more accurate to say I prosituted myself out.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
You weren't seeing yourself as a thing of beauty, that needed to be preserved for special moments of bonding and connection that make you feel cherished, adored, admired for who you are. You lost your integrity and sense of being a mystery to others that should be guarded and the secret given to those you respect and who respect you.
Completely true. And the more I look at it, I did it to myself. Yes... he acknolwedges the part he played in allowing it to happen, in encouraging it in some cases, and for taking advantage of what I was doing to myself on a few occassions, but the fault lays on both our shoulders. Probably most heavily on mine.
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Last edited by midnightsun; 01-28-2010 at 11:45 PM. Reason: Adding nametags.
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  #38  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Your specialness was taken away from you. Why would you feel special to your husband if he has treated you this way. To me it would be like being obliged to sleep with my abuser... because that is how I see him, as an abuser.
This is where there's an odd dynamic that requires a lot more explanation. I am extremely familiar with the cycle of abuse and have already recognized it somewhat in our marriage. But it is MUCH more subtle than one would expect. It is based more around him insisting that I put his needs above my own, not just sexual needs, but mainly his need for sex and connection with me. Even at times when it has been detrimental to me, when he knew I was sick, severely sleep-deprived, or physically/emotionally stressed out. THAT began before we opened our marriage, and LR knows a lot of that history which is why she keyed in on the fact that the problems began INSIDE our marriage and she's exactly right.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I think that this is the only way to regain what you have lost... that and some therapy with a therapist that is familiar to poly relationships.
Not many of those to choose from in Alaska, but since the primary issues of trust, respect, connection and loss reside INSIDE our marriage, I don't think I need a poly or BDSM friendly therapist for the majority of the issues.

I started seeing a therapist in October for what I *thought* was an un-related issue. Turns out there's no such thing... ALL of the issues in my life are connected and contributed to the disconnect between Stewy & I. I'll give more detail in another post.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I agree with Mono on this point. I think your husband should stop his dominant role in your life entirely and you should start taking a hold of your own life in order to regain some feelings of autonomy from him.
We actually already had stopped before I even posted this. It was our 2nd attempt at him being Dominant over me & the lack of trust & connection between us doomed it from the start.

However, since one of his issues was in not prioritizing my needs at all for a long period in our marriage, I have suggested/encouraged that he continue to educate himself on the "caretaking" aspect of being a Dom. As my husband, he still needs to learn to consider and care for my needs (if he'd like to stay married to me) because I am still a sub at heart and because EVERY woman (or man) in a relationship deserves to be cherished, respected and have their needs met. There aren't nearly as many websites out there that teach men how to be good husbands as there are that teach them how to be loving, protective Dom's. Where else can he learn it BEST in the manner I need it most from him? He agrees.

We've also stopped having or considering any sexual relationships outside of our marriage indefinately.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
To be honest it sounds like you want another primary partner because you have completely lost your connection with your husband.
Thankyou for having the courage to say this to me. You're right. I have been searching for a connected relationship because on some level I knew I didn't have one. I was turning to the poly-lifestyle because I didn't want to leave my husband (I do love him VERY much) and still feel SOME connection to him (Grounded Spirit was right) but I wasn't getting my needs met and the connection was not to the level I needed it to be.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
yup, safe to say that I really think you have a lot of work to do.
That's an understatement! LOL! Thankfully I'm blessed to have LR as my best friend and she has been supporting BOTH Stewy and I through all of this. As well as another of our family members with some issues they are struggling with. I don't know how she does it, but thank GOD she does! We do recognize the extent of the work ahead of us, and we are both commited to doing whatever we need to get to a healthy point in our marriage.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I would not at all be surprised if this attitude has carried to your everyday life in some way.
I think it was the other way around, that his attitude in our every day life carried over to our sex life & then to our attempts at poly & BDSM.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I think your husband must completely have a warped sense of what women are about at this point.
That's not *completely* true. My husband has always loved, respected and cherished women. He was the guy in high school who was friends with mostly girls and who wasn't sexual with any of them. He was supportive, gave them a shoulder to cry on, and told them how they didn't deserve to be treated badly by guys. The quickest way to get a lecture from him for a woman to talk negatively about herself or her body. His *instant* response is that society doesn't get to dictate what is attractive and that "skinny" doesn't mean beautiful, then to point out her strengths and attractive qualities in a loving, sincere way.

That said, his first marriage was WARPED in and of itself. ESPECIALLY in the area of sex. His first was was abusive to HIM... physically, emotionally, mentally and in my opinion sexually. She used sex as a commodity to get what she wanted out of him. She withheld it in order to get what she wanted, and when she finally gave in after MONTHS, she accused him of being a perverted sex addict for thinking about it & wanting it. She had been abused herself and perpetuated the cycle. I should have seen it coming. That the cycle would inevitably creep into our marriage in some form. I was naive.

As disconnected as she was from him during sex, he was equally DEEPLY CONNECTED to me during sex. To the extent that it's the primary way he feels connected to me. In itself it's not a healthy dynamic, and it's what has caused him to put pressure on me to fulfil his needs when I didn't feel up to it. He *is* responsible for that pressure. And *I* am responsible for giving in.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
That has got to of fucked with his brain at this point.
Understatement. LOL!

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
And you dear lady, in my opinion have to think about getting a back bone. Get a hold of your life for your self and show your kids that you deserve respect, just as you would expect they would also deserve
Amen. This marriage has become an unhealthy environment for all of us. We are taking drastic and immediate steps to correct that thanks to the insight and advice from this board and from friends & family.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I have not become disconnected thankfully, to me that would mean I have experienced a psychotic break and that I may be suffering from post traumatic stress disorder (something to think about and ask a trained therapist of psychiatrist about).
After *much* reflection on the words you wrote above RP, you are right. I did suffer a psychotic break and I didn't catch it. It happened last summer, and I attributed the resulting issues I'm having with my daily functioning to my AD/HD. I am also suffering from PTSD, but not for the reason you think I am. I'll explain that in that other post I keep alluding to.

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Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
Hi Midnight,

Wow girl - you got a LOT going on here {{{hugs}}}

I think it's really important to state first that this is a prime example of why it's soooooo important to grasp the distinction between love/connection and sex. As I've no doubt said before - as have others - the two CAN go together and it's a beautiful thing when they do ! But neither is a 'requirement' of the other.
GS, you don't know the half of it... yet. LOL! Thank you SO much for the hugs and the insight!! I needed them both, equally!

I agree that sex and connection do not HAVE to co-exist and that the lack of a connection is not always an indication of an issue. However, the two ARE inextricable for ME. Sex, to me, has always been the *ultimate* expression of a bond between two people. I do not need sex with another person to get sexual gratification. If I want an orgasm, that's why man invented vibrators (or more likely woman did! ) and God gave me 10 fingers. What I NEED another person for is the emotional connection. It must exist on SOME level for me. Non-existant is NOT acceptable to ME. It can be just fine for others, and I don't presume to judge their needs.

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Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
I bet if you were able somehow to rewind all of your sexual experiences with Stewy back to day one, you'd discover that not ALL of them were of the deep, bonding experiences. Some were just fun & pleasurable. Some probably weren't even that

Does this help clarify anything?
Actually, I did see the conflict in my statements when RP reacted the way she did and I realized I hadn't really ACTUALLY been pushed into having sex with ANYONE that I wasn't connected to outside of my marriage. The person I had been pushed into having sex with when I felt no connection WAS the person I am married to. You're right... that bond doesn't always need to be there, but at this point, it is almost never there DURING sex.
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Last edited by midnightsun; 01-28-2010 at 11:47 PM. Reason: Adding nametags to make LR jealous! ;) I figured it oooooouuuut!
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  #39  
Old 01-28-2010, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
I seriously hope that you don't feel that the 'bond' that existed between you two has broken ! If the only 'bond' that existed was sexually based you have a whole bigger issue to deal with ! But I feel pretty comfortable saying I doubt that's the case
Very perceptive! You are correct, there is still a bond between us and love between us. It has not lessened or been threatened on HIS side of the relationship at all. On my side, it has sustained a lot of damage, but we have stopped that damage and are working to repair it. Repairing the connection without a sexual element is necessary as a first step. Then we'll work towards reconnecting our sex life.

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So as traumatic as this all seems now, I do believe there's a big potential for something wonderful to come out of it. But THAT is primarily a 'choice'.
I agree, and to our credit (and sometimes our detriment) we are both emphatically stubborn, bull-headed people that refuse to give up when things get hard. Unfortunately, we BOTH also tend to refuse to give up when things get unhealthy. That's where he WAS when I met him... in an unhealthy, unhappy marriage that he was staying in out of sheer stubborn loyalty, duty and devotion to his then 8-year-old son.

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Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
Hope this helps some..........
Probably more than I'll ever be able to express! Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
BTW, I **highly** recommend finding your own poly-friendly therapist. You would not believe what a relief it is to be able to discuss some of these things openly, and my therapist has made some incredible insights and wonderful suggestions for my relationships."
I will eventually do this before we consider getting back into a poly or BDSM relationship(s). For now, I have deeper issues to contend with that only apply to me as an individual, as does he. So, my primary focus is getting help NOW for the major issues since I anticipate it will take time to find a poly/BDSM friendly counselor.

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Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
Schedule time for intimacy--not sex, but talking just to each other, cuddling, paying attention to each other with no distractions. It doesn't seem romantic to schedule it, but it helps build the habit and frankly, scheduling it is better than not having it. Also, scheduling it helps prevent blame--if it's on the schedule, then no one can say, "you're always on the computer" or "you're never home in time" or even "I just couldn't fit it in". My marriage was in serious trouble last summer, and we (with the help of our fabulous girlfriend) said 11 o'clock was cuddle time, no excuses, TV off, no computer. Drop everything and just do it. It sounded stupid, but it worked.
That sounds supisciously like at least one person in your marriage has AD/HD. LOL! And yes, scheduling it is a perfect way of solving that issue. We've rollercoastered through that one... sometimes there's not enough cuddle/talk time because of my AD/HD & tendancy to overcommit or become distracted. Other times he's too needy and I have to pull back.

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Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
Try reading The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman.
We actually both already have. I read the book almost 15 years ago when I was college age. I found it to be so helpful that I've given it & recommended it to many others. After 8 years of nagging, Stewy finally caved and read it last summer. It did help a lot!!

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Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
You are their model for a mom. If they see you always giving up what you need for the needs of others, then they will see that moms are not as valuable as anyone else. If you have a daughter, that's a terrible legacy to leave her. If you have a son, do you want him to treat his female partners that way? You are doing your children a favor if you learn to weigh your needs more heavily. It's hard, but oh so worth it, and you'll eventually see that you can do it without taking anything valuable from them.
I have a daughter AND a son, and the example they deserve to have in BOTH parents is someone who can fulfil their own needs without trampling on the needs of those around them. Balance. I must find balance...

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Originally Posted by CielDuMatin View Post
Knowing this, has it changed the way you feel about what happened and, if so, how?
What has changed was my perception of his side of the "connection." When his reaction was one of devastation because HE hasn't lost that connection with me, I realized that I had assumed he had. I assumed he didn't love me as much as he claimed to, otherwise I'd be able to "feel" it eminating from him.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I beg to differ. I think you are a very sensitive person, however you aren't REALLY an emotionally intuitive person, which would mean that you seem to KNOW a persons true feelings without being told; you tend to be too much of an optimist to TRULY intuit a persons emotions/intentions/thoughts. You often miss the clues that go "against the grain" of your natural optimistic outlook.

This has a HORRIBLE tendency to bite you in the ass on many occassions. Too many that I've personally witnesssed, and plenty that were in fact with me.
There are two halves to this. You're right... and you're wrong. I *AM* really an emotionally intuitive person. However, you have only known me since I lost my connection to this part of myself. And, I only just realized that I lost it BECAUSE of the post quoted above. So, first and foremost, thank you for your honesty.

Second, I *AM* a naturally optimistic person, so that probably does cause me to misinterpret situations and bite me in the ass, as you've observed. But I think it goes much, MUCH deeper than that... my gravitation towards optimism and the personal trauma I've lived through may have caused me to shut out negative emotions. I'm actually leaning towards the theory that it led me to shut out nearly ALL emotions, both positive and negative, including my OWN.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
What does "sexual interaction" mean to you?
My ACTUAL definition starts at touching & kissing. Sexual interaction can actually occur without even that. My RECENT mutation of my definition of sexual interaction was most likely a result of the "disconnect" I made.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
What does "deep attraction" and "chemistry" mean to you?
Deep attraction/chemistry = a longing for someone, a facination with someone, a sometimes undefinable, reciprocated feeling that you are drawn to one another. Not necessarily in a sexual context.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
What does "preliminary bond" mean to you?
That "click" where you just seem to instantly "get" each other even though you've just met... when you first realize the potential for the deep attraction/chemistry I defined above. Kind of like our trip to Fairbanks... only by then I think we were past preliminary in our friendship. LOL!

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I ask, because it's become evident to me recently-that whatever your understanding of these words is, it's not the same as mine, so I can't speak to this paragraph without asking for clarification.
In some ways your understanding differs from mine. In other ways, I've been ignoring what my own definitions are.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
THIS strikes me as a HUGE question mark. I can't define exactly why-but it does. I wonder what it is you mean by "developed OR foresee developing" because that seems like it would be a confusing thing for your husband (or any potential partners) to keep straight and understand.
I guess what I was trying to get at was the differentiation I make between feeling that initial "click" and then recognizing the POTENTIAL for a deep attraction/chemistry that will develop into a bonded relationship vs. already HAVING the deep attraction & chemistry that MUST be there in order to develop a bonded relationship.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
That said-it should be noted that many a person has talked on this board about significant others who SAY they are ok with poly and yet insist on setting requirements so impossible for their spouse to ACTUALLY be polyamorous.
That wasn't the case from my standpoint. It may very well have been the case from his. He may honestly have been subconsiously pushing me towards relationships where I DIDN'T feel a bond because on some level he knew he'd feel threatened if I found someone I felt I COULD have that bond with. And when he pushed me towards getting a BF, that is *exactly* what ended up happening. It triggered his insecurities and a full blown panic attack.
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Last edited by midnightsun; 01-28-2010 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 01-28-2010, 11:44 PM
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midnightsun midnightsun is offline
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Location: In the deep wilderness next to the man I love, raising a few wild animals some might call children.
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
HE had a responsibility to understand (whether by research or whatever other method) that when he takes the role of a "Dom" he takes on the same level of responsibility for his actions in regards to you as a scoutmaster to a scout or a priest to his parishioner. He has a RESPONSIBILITY to understand that as a "Dom" he CAN NOT tell you to do something without THINKING ABOUT ALL OF THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES FIRST.
Also-he has a responsibility to understand, that by breaching your boundaries he automatically negates his authority.
He didn't fully understand his responisibilities the first time that he took advantage of my willingness to violate my own boundaries. He had a better understanding the second time. But BOTH times, he lacked the ability and experience to accurately weigh the consequences.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
One must FIRST respect THEMSELF before they can give over their trust to ANYONE else to protect them (and their own self respect).
Agreed. I can expect him to protect me from a lot of things, but not from myself. Not without my OWN participation in the process.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
This is a clear-cut sign that you REALLY need to see a therapist AND so does he, separately. As noted by Mono. To allow yourself to REPEATEDLY disrespect yourself in such a HUGE manner shows a HUGE issue with your own ability to properly prioritize yourself in respect to ANYONE else in life. This NEEDS to be addressed before you can have a functional, healthy relationship WITH ANYONE in ANY form (lover, husband, Dom, friend, child, parent etc)
Very true. Every word of it.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I think that you ought be more devastated over the reality that you allowed yourself to be raped repeatedly for the same basic, non-essential and basically unimportant reason (he saying to).

IF one believes that their "deeper soul" self, most commonly found through emotions and artistic outlets is more important than their bodies (as you often say you do...) THEN rape of their deeper soul is more a RAPE then if it were their physical body and therefore MUCH MORE DAMAGING.And a Dom telling a sub to break a boundary-is FIRST a rape of their soul, in the case of sex-it's then ALSO a rape of the body.
Profound... frightening... and very on-point for me. Although he never ASKED me to break a boundary for him... he allowed me to break my own boundary and abuse myself for him. He didn't force me to drink, but he led me to the fountain knowing that I would.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Actually I dare say it was the other way around. Your disconnect started with him. Then it carried over into the sexual and emotional relationships you had outside of your marriage as well (including with me).
(You didn't simply disconnect emotions from sex. You disconnected emotionally. I think if you REALLY look into what I'm saying-and keep reading the personal messages I've been working to send you to explain where I am and why I am having issues in relationship to OUR relationship-you'll see what I mean.)
I see that know. And that has been the most devistating loss of all. Sisterinlove said it quite well to me privately... "You didn't just lose your connection to sex or your husband, you lost your connection to YOURSELF." In doing so, I lost my ABILITY to connect with others. A very lonely and dangerous place to be.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
No person (or couple) should EVER try to start a relationship with another person until they themselves are on solid footing. It's not loving to reach out to another when you yourself are flailing. It would be like if you were drowning AND calling your child to come in the water to you. Totally ridiculous image yes? Exactly the same image I have of two people who are flailing in themselves reaching out to have others join them....
That's exactly what I've been doing.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Resistance.. OMG resistance LR.
WTF are YOU doing with a BF at all if you have no deep bond!!!!!!! PLEASE re-read all of this and answer it for yourself. The question is rhetorical as far as I'm concerned, I don't need the answer, I already KNOW it.
Now I know it too.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
So help me out is *some* good enough FOR YOU???
Because you SAY it's not.
IF it's really not-WTF are you doing?
No, it's not. It never has been. It never WILL be enough for me. I NEED deep, connected, bonded relationships in my life in order to FUNCTION.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
NOT where it started.
You instinctively want to go where you know you are safe. Purely animalistic, self-defense mechanism, no different from Maca wanting to go to his dad when he's having issue.
You don't feel safe inside of the marriage.
You haven't BEEN safe inside of the marriage.
If it's fixable-it's only fixable inside of the marriage.
THE DISCONNECT can be fixed outside of the marriage, but the marriage can only be fixed from within and the disconnect is only a SYMPTOM of the issues within the marriage.
SO-if you JUST want the connection back-get a divorce.
IF you want the marriage AND the connection back-you have to fix it INSIDE of the marriage and it will likely take a few years of CONSCIOUS, CONCERTED, DAILY effort.
Very good point. But, I've since learned that the disconnect isn't a symptom of JUST the marriage. It's ALSO symptom of other issues I haven't dealt with, but the marriage issues made them worse and increased the impact those issues had.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
Rushing always fucks things up-I agree with Maca on this detail.
Yes. And I see how my impulsivity (and Stewy's) led to a lot of fuck-ups along the way in our marriage. Some of it can be attributed to the undiagnosed (at the time) AD/HD in both of us. Still no excuse.

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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
You both need to REALLY figure out what the heck you TRULY believe-then LIVE IT. Instead of talking about "theory" of living it.
Amen to that.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I just wanted to say MS that you have been given a great gift here. You have been given the gift of insight. Not all women in your position are given that gift. Use it now. Listen to your friend and seek some help. Both of you.
Understatement of the year!! "Gift" doesn't even come close to describing it.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
All is not lost and I wish for you strength and some peace when you finally realize you completed a long journey. There are some great gifts coming along the way and the biggest one will be finding yourself...

Go take the journey now and work hard. I'm rooting for you.
Thank you! Thank you ALL for the time and thought you put into your responses, and to those of you who took the time to respond in other ways. I'll finish clarifying in another post shortly. And I'll keep you all posted as we progress in our journey.

We've been given a VERY precious thing... another CHANCE to make things right and heal the wounds of the past.
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Last edited by midnightsun; 01-28-2010 at 11:50 PM.
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