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  #61  
Old 01-23-2010, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I don't consider all judgments harmful either. But I do consider inaccurate and misinformed assumptions to be harmful and that's more what this is about for me. For me, disassociating from the umbrella term because of the assumptions attached to it means I'm tacitly saying that there is truth to the assumptions made about it when that's not the case. For me, there's more integrity in sticking to the truth of the term rather than yield to the assumptions attached to the term.

I was following, but now I think you lost me. I guess I have to make it personal for me to understand.

I am polyamorous in that I romantically love three people. However, I feel very strongly that I would not enjoy casual sex, and in the past have failed in attempts to have and enjoy casual sex. While I believe that people should be allowed to enjoy sex the way they want to provided it harms none, I do not believe in casual sex with no emotional involvement for myself and do not want that label attached to me. If the word polyamory becomes attached to casual sex with no emotional involvement, then using the word polyamory for myself not only feels erroneous, but also as a betrayal of who I feel myself to be. In addition, adding things like poly-sex parties to the definition of polyamory feels like it actually takes away from the ideal of "many loves", which I interpret as emotional involvement. Is there a happy medium?
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  #62  
Old 01-23-2010, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I don't consider all judgments harmful either. But I do consider inaccurate and misinformed assumptions to be harmful and that's more what this is about for me. For me, disassociating from the umbrella term because of the assumptions attached to it means I'm tacitly saying that there is truth to the assumptions made about it when that's not the case. For me, there's more integrity in sticking to the truth of the term rather than yield to the assumptions attached to the term.
I think that the kind of inaccurate and misinformed assumptions come out as judgments sometimes. Those are the judgments that I don't like. Judging quietly on your own is one thing, talking about it in the spirit of hurting others and not looking at it with empathy is another. I think engaging others with the spirit of friendship, kindness, empathy, respect in order to learn and understand on another level is a far better approach in forming healthy understandings of one another and forming healthy definitions that I can feel good about.

I think that disassociating from something is sometimes useful in order to move back into it again with a different understanding. I have found that in my process to understand the term "Polyamorous" I have been completely happy with the definition until I realized part of it didn't fit for me and eventually rejected it for a time. In rejecting it I was able to stand outside of it uncomfortably and nameless but in the spirit of trying to understand and accept. I was frustrated and disappointed in the term and those that choice to use it and began really talking about it and pondering it for myself. Now, I understand all the subtleties of the term and can place myself in it and swim around quite comfortably. I get it for the first time this week.

I think I will explain to others that I am able to have more than one loving relationship. Back to the original umbrella definition but it is so filled with meaning now and encompasses everyone in my mind rather than my personal definition. I will then be able to say what my poly is and do it with the confidence of knowing that I accept others within the umbrella term.
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  #63  
Old 01-23-2010, 05:25 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
I was following, but now I think you lost me. I guess I have to make it personal for me to understand.

I am polyamorous in that I romantically love three people. However, I feel very strongly that I would not enjoy casual sex, and in the past have failed in attempts to have and enjoy casual sex. While I believe that people should be allowed to enjoy sex the way they want to provided it harms none, I do not believe in casual sex with no emotional involvement for myself and do not want that label attached to me. If the word polyamory becomes attached to casual sex with no emotional involvement, then using the word polyamory for myself not only feels erroneous, but also as a betrayal of who I feel myself to be. In addition, adding things like poly-sex parties to the definition of polyamory feels like it actually takes away from the ideal of "many loves", which I interpret as emotional involvement. Is there a happy medium?

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I have found that in my process to understand the term "Polyamorous" I have been completely happy with the definition until I realized part of it didn't fit for me and eventually rejected it for a time. In rejecting it I was able to stand outside of it uncomfortably and nameless but in the spirit of trying to understand and accept. I was frustrated and disappointed in the term and those that choice to use it and began really talking about it and pondering it for myself. Now, I understand all the subtleties of the term and can place myself in it and swim around quite comfortably. I get it for the first time this week.

I would like to offer an analogy yet again:

Consider "Polyamory" as one pizza. Cheese and tomato sauce are on the entire pizza... half has only veggies...the other half has pepperoni one quarter also has sausage... and they want an anchovy on ONE slice of the veggie-only half (I occasionally ask for this because I like the flavor of the anchovy but one is much-enough). Mushrooms aren't TECHNICALLY veggies, they're FUNGUS... but they're not meat either... should we put them on the whole thing, or on one side but not the other? I for one cannot IMAGINE a pizza without mushrooms, but look, River can't STAND the IDEA of EATING FUNGUS (I don't know that for a fact i'm just trying to illustrate my point). And what about "extra cheese"? does that count as a topping or not? It's already PART of the RECIPE...

Etc.

But are you going to say that you won't eat pizza because you don't want to "share a label" with people who like fungus (or anchovy, or meat) on THEIR pizza?

Because how DO you define what a PIZZA "is"?

Last edited by NeonKaos; 01-23-2010 at 05:28 PM.
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  #64  
Old 01-23-2010, 05:41 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemondrop View Post
If the word polyamory becomes attached to casual sex with no emotional involvement, then using the word polyamory for myself not only feels erroneous, but also as a betrayal of who I feel myself to be. In addition, adding things like poly-sex parties to the definition of polyamory feels like it actually takes away from the ideal of "many loves", which I interpret as emotional involvement. Is there a happy medium?
Ok, let me see if I can frame this a bit differently.

There are monogamous people who have casual sex. There are monogamous people who have loving committed sex. At what point does the term monogamy define one or the other? Generally people don't assume that monogamy means one or the other. I happen to think people shouldn't assume polyamory means one or the other either.


What I'm trying to say is that allowing people to attach the assumption that casual sex is what defines polyamory does nothing to clarify what polyamory is. Sure there are poly people who may have casual sex and sure there are poly people who may have closed multiple relationships. Simply because a group of poly people decided to get together to have a sex party doesn't mean that has to now be incorporated into the common definition of what polyamory is. Just like monogamous people who have casual sex don't define what monogamy is.

Once we start trying to cater our words to accommodate those assumptions, we then allow those assumptions to hold more power than they should. All of a sudden we begin defining ourselves around other people's assumptions rather than just calling out that assumption as incorrect as it's applied to the word.

The fact is that the word polyamory means multiple loving relationships in which all parties consent. It does not assume how people conduct themselves in those relationships. There are polyamorous people who have quiet domestic poly families. There are polyamorous people who have multiple loving relationships, some of which might be FWB or casual sex and they may even have sex parties. Polyamory only defines the one common element- that they are engaged in multiple loving relationships in which all parties consent. How people manifest that polyamory is wide and varied. Even if the general perception may be different, I would prefer to challenge that general perception as incorrect than let the descriptors of my identity be governed by other people's assumptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
But are you going to say that you won't eat pizza because you don't want to "share a label" with people who like fungus (or anchovy, or meat) on THEIR pizza?

Because how DO you define what a PIZZA "is"?
That pizza analogy is the best analogy I've heard yet. I'm totally using that from now on.

Last edited by Ceoli; 01-23-2010 at 05:48 PM. Reason: add response to Ygirl's post.
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  #65  
Old 01-23-2010, 06:20 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by YGirl View Post
Consider "Polyamory" as one pizza. Cheese and tomato sauce are on the entire pizza... half has only veggies...the other half has pepperoni one quarter also has sausage... and they want an anchovy on ONE slice of the veggie-only half (I occasionally ask for this because I like the flavor of the anchovy but one is much-enough). Mushrooms aren't TECHNICALLY veggies, they're FUNGUS... but they're not meat either... should we put them on the whole thing, or on one side but not the other? I for one cannot IMAGINE a pizza without mushrooms, but look, River can't STAND the IDEA of EATING FUNGUS (I don't know that for a fact i'm just trying to illustrate my point). And what about "extra cheese"? does that count as a topping or not? It's already PART of the RECIPE...

Etc.

But are you going to say that you won't eat pizza because you don't want to "share a label" with people who like fungus (or anchovy, or meat) on THEIR pizza?

Because how DO you define what a PIZZA "is"?
And don't forget - you can have your Crazy Bread™ or CinnaStix™ and eat your pizza too.
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  #66  
Old 01-23-2010, 06:44 PM
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There is also the idea that some swingers only hang out with one group of swinging friends that they have sex with. To my understanding that isn't swinging but a poly sex party. To them it is quite different. It seems they think poly is kind of a mushy term that doesn't involve sex as much as they would like. At least this is what I'm told. This is where the line blurs and overlaps.

I like the pizza idea too ygirl. That is exactly how I feel about it now.
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Last edited by redpepper; 01-24-2010 at 01:44 AM.
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  #67  
Old 01-23-2010, 07:10 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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I'm having so much fun with this I hope you's will bear with me!


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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post

I like the pizza idea too ygirl. That is exactly how I feel about it now.

Well I hope none of you object to that one anchovy. I swear it will only POSSIBLY taint the two slices on either side of it, not the entire pizza.

If you order a separate pizza for that reason anyway, remember - it will still be a "pizza". Don't expect them to re-write the menu with a special name for everything that contains or does not contain "anchovies".

Of course, you could have everything on the menu be couched in terms of "anchovy" and "not-anchovy"... the possibilities are endless. But you're not fooling anyone except MAYBE yourself.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 01-23-2010 at 07:16 PM. Reason: anchovies
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  #68  
Old 01-23-2010, 07:41 PM
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LovingRadiance LovingRadiance is offline
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Maca loathes mushrooms ANYWHERE in his food, so you could use him instead Ygirl.

Great analogy-pretty funny visual too.
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  #69  
Old 01-23-2010, 07:47 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Maca loathes mushrooms ANYWHERE in his food, so you could use him instead Ygirl.

As long as we don't have to breathe the same air. People might get the wrong idea if we associate with one another. They might think I don't like mushrooms anymore and I just cannot have that you see.

And you never even said how Maca feels about teh anchovies. It's as though you're not even LISTENING to what I'm SAYING.

We need some non-culinary communication (NCC) around here...

Last edited by NeonKaos; 01-23-2010 at 07:51 PM. Reason: add anchovies
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  #70  
Old 01-24-2010, 01:49 AM
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So, to get back to this party unfolding... sorry ygirl,

Last night I was hanging with a poly friend that I thought for sure was invited to the party and it turns out he wasn't and I let the cat out of the bag... oops.

I hate this secrecy thing that is going on around it. It just isn't sitting right. Not to mention that there are people going that are not a part of our regular group and I was told that it was all people we knew so what was the big deal, we should be at the point where we are comfortable enough to be sexual with each other.

There has been some discussion about the possibility that we are not ready but could be pushed a bit to see if people are interested in sex as a group.

Tonight I am meeting a number of folks that are going and am going to try and keep my mouth shut as I don't know who was invited and who note.... soooo goes against my nature as I am very inclusive of everyone... sigh... I will try.

Just venting with this I think and trying to let it go...
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