Sex positive/sex negative

[Ceoli]

Originally Posted by crisare

Isn't this interesting. Because when I used almost that EXACT terminology with dakid over the definition of a lover vs. a fuckbuddy, you jumped all over me for expecting people to adhere to my definitions.

Nope, I didn't "jump all over you". I asked you why you felt the need to have her definition fit yours. It seemed you did because you consistently brought that up.

I specifically said to her "I would call what you described a lover. How do you define a lover then?" and I got raked over the coals for making someone define things on my terms.

So .. I see a huge level of hypocrisy in what you say in threads like this Ceoli.

Again, no. I asked you why you felt the need to do that.

You've clearly illustrated with this example how things can be viewed through a confrontational lens. And it's getting very tiresome at this point.

You say I should block you because I am conditioned to disagree with you. Honestly many times I agree with your concepts, but I find that you use your psychological training and ability with words to back people into corners as well as saying you are the victim of tactics you yourself use on others.

I don't necessarily disagree with many of your points. I find your attitude on the board to be boarderline bullying of those who disagree with you, however.

Look. This is an online forum where people exchange ideas. If you think I'm bullying, I suggest that you take it up with the moderators and have them discuss it with me. I only say what I feel is right to say in the given circumstances. I do not choose my words for the purpose of backing people into corners and I certainly don't take my "psychological knowledge" to use for some diabolical purpose of putting other people down. . I choose them to say and stand for what I believe should be said.

I don't claim to be a victim of anything. I pointed out in my previous post that it's funny that my point seems to be missed in all this. I have no problem with it and I won't go starting a new thread about how nobody listens to me. I just continue to make my points. Feel free to respond to them or not. If you want me to do or be anything else, feel free to take it up with me on PM.

"I'm sorry that you feel ... " is a lame cop-out apology. It's a passive-aggressive way of denying responsibility for your own words. If you're sorry you offended me, then say so. If you're not sorry, then don't "apologize" to me for my own feelings. We are all entitled to our feelings and opinions and don't need someone else to apologize on our behalves.

Believe it or not, I am sorry you feel bullied. And you certainly are entitled to your feelings and I've never claimed otherwise. However, since we are all adults here, I will not take responsibility for your feelings as we all have our feelings and opinions. I'm just as entitled to my opinions as you are to yours. However, according to what you're saying here, it seems that sticking to my opinions means I'm borderline bullying on this forum. I don't accept that.

[Ravenesque]

Originally Posted by constlady

But after the specifics have been given, to be told their interpretation of the words is the problem is expecting them to adapt and that was the point that I was trying to make.

That's odd. I just managed to have a discussion with River on his interpretation of the word bi-amorous. I didn't feel expected to adapt in any horrible way. It doesn't fit with my perspective. It fits with his perspective and addresses his experience. The only adaptation I felt was in opening up my mind a bit and understanding his view as well accepting the existence of his view in addition to my own. I didn't feel the need to impress what I thought the word meant or how I would use the word.

Is adapting to accept the differences in the world really a "problem"? Is it that hurtful an experience for you?

Originally Posted by constlady

A more productive discussion might change the last response to something like, "Oh, I don't interpret Y in that way, I interpret it in this way. How do you interpret Y? OP, how did you intend to use Y?" which allows for everyone involved to feel heard and tends to encourage further discussion on the original topic, rather than discourage it.

And I personally find the prevalence of communication problems to occur less when hearing what I don't want to hear and more when I'm not feeling heard in return.

A more productive discussion involves not trying to impress your interpretation above another. Next is acceptance of the different interpretations. If a difference is discovered, you ask what the words mean to the other person if the interest truly is in understanding that person's perspective. Then if that person asks for your interpretation, you give it.

Again it is possible to discuss without pushing and pushing what your opinion is of how the words should be used. There is room enough in reality for words to have more than one meaning and to be used in more than one way.

That is being heard and that is listening. It is crucial to understand that you don't have to always do both.

I listened to River and then I moseyed right along. I didn't tell him what I thought biamorous meant or how I thought it should be used. I didn't tell him what word I would use in it's place. It didn't mean I didn't have an opinion on it either. But it wasn't important for him to "hear" me in that way.

Being heard is not the same as making everyone agree that your point of view is the right one.

Which takes me to the next bit:

Originally Posted by crisare

Isn't this interesting. Because when I used almost that EXACT terminology with dakid over the definition of a lover vs. a fuckbuddy, you jumped all over me for expecting people to adhere to my definitions.

I specifically said to her "I would call what you described a lover. How do you define a lover then?" and I got raked over the coals for making someone define things on my terms.

So .. I see a huge level of hypocrisy in what you say in threads like this Ceoli.

Crisare, you repeatedly stated what your definition of the words fuckbuddy and lover were. Dakid explained what they meant for her. She was very forthcoming. You couldn't accept that. You continued stating how you interpreted it and continued asking how she could possibly feel or interpret things the way that she did which was different from you.

It was important for you to impress from all angles what it meant for you and come back to ask why dakid didn't use the terms in the same way.

The key you were missing was accepting the difference. Dakid saw it differently from you based on her experience. She uses the words differently, end of story. You are different people.

Originally Posted by crisare

You say I should block you because I am going to get offended just because you disagree with me. I don't necessarily disagree with many of your points and I don't care that you disagree with me. If we all thought alike, the world would be boring. However, I find your attitude on the board to be boarderline bullying of those who disagree with you, which is what I find offensive. I find that you use your psychological training and ability with words to back people into corners, then you follow that up with saying you are a victim of tactics you yourself use on others.

Originally Posted by crisare

Finally: "I'm sorry that you feel ... " is a lame cop-out apology. It's a passive-aggressive way of denying responsibility for your own words. If you're sorry you offended me, then say so. If you're not sorry, then don't "apologize" to me for my own feelings. We are all entitled to our feelings and opinions and don't need someone else to apologize on our behalves.

Hmm. Do you feel envious of or threatened by Ceoli's ability to communicate, uncomfortable when you are unable to find a response when engaging in discussion with her and therefore feel the need to attack her and characterize her involvement on these boards as "bullying" and "backing people into a corner" due to the frustration and resentment you feel? This reaction rather than addressing the topic because you are unable to and your opinion has not been validated by others as right?

Because it certainly sounds like it. The speed with which you pulled out the "Difference between poly and slutdom" thread, whew, made my head spin.

I've seen this tactic used on other boards and in politics. An attempt to turn an otherwise positive skill of another into a negative in order to lift the lack of that skill as a virtue.

This seems to be the purpose of this entire thread.

I would definitely call that hypocrisy from those who speak of bullying or not conversing "productively." Advocating manners of discussion where your views are always right is not productive or accepting of reality.

Originally Posted by Ceoli

Look. This is an online forum where people exchange ideas. If you think I'm bullying, I suggest that you take it up with the moderators and have them discuss it with me. I only say what I feel is right to say in the given circumstances. I do not choose my words for the purpose of backing people into corners and I certainly don't take my "psychological knowledge" to use for some diabolical purpose of putting other people down. . I choose them to say and stand for what I believe should be said.

I don't claim to be a victim of anything. I pointed out in my previous post that it's funny that my point seems to be missed in all this. I have no problem with it and I won't go starting a new thread about how nobody listens to me. I just continue to make my points. Feel free to respond to them or not. If you want me to do or be anything else, feel free to take it up with me on PM.

Believe it or not, I am sorry you feel bullied. And you certainly are entitled to your feelings and I've never claimed otherwise. However, since we are all adults here, I will not take responsibility for your feelings as we all have our feelings and opinions. I'm just as entitled to my opinions as you are to yours. However, according to what you're saying here, it seems that sticking to my opinions means I'm borderline bullying on this forum. I don't accept that.

Yes. Yes. And yes. I could see that all strung into one paragraph:

"This is an online forum where people exchange ideas. I have no problem with it and I won't go starting a new thread about how nobody listens to me. You certainly are entitled to your feelings and I've never claimed otherwise. However, since we are all adults here, I will not take responsibility for your feelings as we all have our feelings and opinions. I'm just as entitled to my opinions as you are to yours."

Beautiful either way.

Your views and opinions are not bullying. And people should take responsibility for their own emotions. I do see a small crowd attacking you for having differing views and expressing them quite well rather than discussing the views themselves.

Bullying.... nah that couldn't be what is being done here now could it.

~Raven~

[crisare]

Do you feel envious of Ceoli's ability to communicate, uncomfortable when you are unable to find a response when engaging in discussion with her and therefore feel the need to attack her and characterize her involvement on these boards as "bullying" and "backing people into a corner" due to the frustration and resentment you feel?

No, but thanks for the psycho-babble pseudo analysis. I see this a lot from people on various boards who get annoyed when they can't bully people into seeing their point of view .. they go on the attack, but in a very faux-analytical way as an attempt to impugn the mental health/stability of the person they don't agree with, and thereby give themselves legitimacy.

The speed with which you pulled out the "Difference between poly and slutdom" thread, whew, made my head spin.

LOL. That's a good one. Yeah. Let's please get real here. In a 15 page thread, I posted on nearly every single page. I finally chose to step out when Ceoli would not let me continue what was turning into (I felt) a productive conversation with dakid without further jumping down my throat for asking questions.

So you know .. the psychobabble BS doesn't really cut it for me. If you want to justify my response to your writing with armchair amateur psychoanalysis, and implying that I have issues, you go right ahead. It's kind of funny actually.

I'm done with this conversation with you and Ceoli both. I'm sure you'll say that I'm pulling out of this one and making your head spin. Quite frankly, I find your posts as insulting, holier-than-thou, and rude as many of Ceoli's. I choose to move away from this and contribute productively to this board as I've discussed in PM with several people over the last few days.

I found this board and learned there are some wonderful, openminded people here who I really enjoy. I am not going to allow a few others to spoil it.

[rolypoly]

Woah, this thread really needs some NVC. LOL!

[redpepper]

what's NVC?
and when are we going to get back on topic, or should I start a new thread on this... cause this is a really interesting one for me and I was looking forward to talking about it... I hate to interrupt as I see there are several of you in a process, but I just thought I would ask if I should start again on sex positive/negative?

let me know and I would be glad to start it again

[MonoVCPHG]

Non Violent Communication I think.

[DrunkenPorcupine]

I've got to say that I think both Crisare and Ceoli/Davik are right here.

What I mean by that is that from my reading, none of the people here are trying to force their terms or definitions onto others, instead are trying to explain their viewpoints and opinions in the way they see best.

On one hand, I need to appreciate the maturity on both sides for continuing to explain, and on the other hand, I need to question why this seems to feel so confrontational.

I guess that makes me a moderate. Can I be a moderator now? :P

[MonoVCPHG]

I get it....that's all I'm saying

[redpepper]

Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG

Non Violent Communication I think.

Oh right, it is. I think I mentioned that once before but perhaps people don't know what that is or have any knowledge of it.... so I posted a link in the communication sticky... there is tons of things to read on line, courses and a great book called just that, "non-violent communication." All totally worth a read as it teaches the language used to show our compassion for others and still get our point/opinions across without others thinking we are trying to change their minds, bully them or manipulate the conversation.

I dunno, might be helpful?

[redpepper]

Originally Posted by Ceoli

Rolypoly posted another link about NVC earlier in that thread too.

I do think we run into a bit of a snag when we start trying to treat communication on an online forum as the same as communication in person and within the context of a relationship. There can be very different dynamics between the two.

Perhaps, I'm just saying it might be something to concider as its more of an empathetic way of talking to another or others rather than talking as if one is writing an article for a journal if that makes sense.