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  #91  
Old 01-13-2010, 11:50 PM
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This quote suggests to me that River is saying that BDSM is not in an of itself a healthy thing. It didn't seem to me that this was something personal to him but a general statement that applies to anyone who participates in BDSM play, which is why I addressed it in my reply.
Fair enough, I can see how he could be judging in those statements. River? I don't know, having experimented with lots of dynamics I find that it all has a place in my over all experience of myself. I can see how River you would feel very passionate about your beliefs, especially considering how fucked up people can get within themselves when they don't have enough connection to themselves or respect for themselves when engaging in casual sex. It is a fine line I think. It was for me...
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  #92  
Old 01-13-2010, 11:51 PM
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There is something terribly, terribly blinding about conceiving of value, of good, as something that can only be a subjectively held view, a mere opinion.

Equally blinding is the premise that if value isn't subjective, it must be objective.

Intersubjectivity sounds like something with as much weight as "I and all of my friends agree that...".

I'm accutely aware that endless wars and ecocidal mania are possible because we are blinded to the raw simplicity of the presence of the sacred. To say that "that which is sacred is your own opinion," or to regard all consideration of sacredness as belonging to the millennia of religious mania and superstition ... is blind.

....

A kiss that is not a kiss is poison because it is a lie. It is a falsehood in the face of the sacred opportunity of a kiss.

This sounds like mere opinion only to one who has never been kissed and given a kiss at the very same moment.

The one who pretends to kiss engages in a kind of black magic, stealing the truth of the kiss from himself / herself, the other.

Who has not been temporarily broken in the heart to find that one has been fed many anti-kisses in the guise of kisses?!

I've had it done to me, and I know what I'm talking about. What happened was not just my opinion. I was robbed!

If a woman's purse is stolen, that's an objective fact, no? Not just her opinion?
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  #93  
Old 01-14-2010, 12:00 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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Is it really right to say that that which is sacred is merely a matter of personal choice or conviction, is merely "subjective"? Must, alternatively, any sacred thing be found by some ostensibly "objective" procedure to be such?
I'm making no claims to whether it's right or not. Just stating the fact that different people hold very different things a sacred. You may think it's obvious as to what should be held sacred, but there are other people who consider it just as obvious that their very different things are sacred.

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If anything is sacred, which is to say if anything is worthy of reverence, the value of a person, of a life form, of a biotic community, of the biosphere itself -- Earth and its many life forms must be held so. <--- Now can we read that without projecting authority into it? Can we see this as "a finger pointing at the moon"? Is it possible to read or hear these words and not hear a proclamation of moral obligation or duty?

If life itself is not sacred, can anything at all be sacred? And if nothing at all is worthy of universal reverence--beyond the claims of authority or the games of logicians and epistemologists--does anything have any value at all? And if nothing has any value at all, aside from personal preferences and "subjective" views, -- how completely insane is that? Isn't that madness?! Who could dare to utter: "Life is NOT sacred, is not worthy of reverence?" and not be thought mad by sane people?

If life itself is sacred, then it would follow that that which nourishes it into flourishing is good, and that which inhibits such flourishing is bad. Pretending that we don't know that leaving the heart (not the pump) out of sex has a (metaphorically) toxic effect on people is a strange kind of ignor- ance.
None of this really has to do with the topic we're discussing.



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Screw the madness of argument, here. Look deep. I'm not providing an argument because such philosphical arguments tend to traverse the periphery of the heart and never evoke any depth of insight. I wasted years discussing this with philosophers. Well, it was not a complete waste of my time. I learned the limits of the conceptual mind.
When people are saying things that spread ideals that can potentially hurt others (in this case the ideals that certain things are not good if they fall outside of your definition of "sacred" and "healthy") then I consider it core to my beliefs and values to discuss it.

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Originally Posted by River View Post
There is something terribly, terribly blinding about conceiving of value, of good, as something that can only be a subjectively held view, a mere opinion.

Equally blinding is the premise that if value isn't subjective, it must be objective.
I've never said that it must always be one or the other. However in the case of declaring practices to be unhealthy, that is certainly applying an objective value and therefore it's completely reasonable to put that up to debate.


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Intersubjectivity sounds like something with as much weight as "I and all of my friends agree that...".

I'm accutely aware that endless wars and ecocidal mania are possible because we are blinded to the raw simplicity of the presence of the sacred. To say that "that which is sacred is your own opinion," or to regard all consideration of sacredness as belonging to the millennia of religious mania and superstition ... is blind.
Oftentimes such conflicts spring from groups of people clinging to the idea that what they hold sacred must be true for everyone.

You seem to assume that I'm blind to what is sacred. Believe it or not, I'm very intentional about my spirituality and my views on sex positivity and even BDSM fall right in line with what I hold sacred.


Quote:
A kiss that is not a kiss is poison because it is a lie. It is a falsehood in the face of the sacred opportunity of a kiss.

This sounds like mere opinion only to one who has never been kissed and given a kiss at the very same moment.

The one who pretends to kiss engages in a kind of black magic, stealing the truth of the kiss from himself / herself, the other.

Who has not been temporarily broken in the heart to find that one has been fed many anti-kisses in the guise of kisses?!

I've had it done to me, and I know what I'm talking about. What happened was not just my opinion. I was robbed!

If a woman's purse is stolen, that's an objective fact, no? Not just her opinion?
Can you please explain how this analogy applies?

Last edited by NeonKaos; 01-14-2010 at 11:50 PM. Reason: merge posts
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  #94  
Old 01-14-2010, 12:16 AM
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When people are saying things that spread ideals that can potentially hurt others (in this case the ideals that certain things are not good if they fall outside of your definition of "sacred" and "healthy" then I consider it core to my beliefs and values to discuss it.
I respect that. Truly I do.

All I can say is that there are a lot of people doing great harm to one another, but they are ignorant of this harm. And there's no way, so far as I can see, to convey in words precisely what this harm is. It is'nt something that, so far as I can tell, can be explained. If arguments can be provided, they can be rendered null in counterarguments, along with the views put forth in those counter-arguments.

I could say that much recreational BDSM sex--or closed-hearted sex with strangers in one night stands--generally obscures the potential for loving sex which transcends power-play dynamics, and this obscuration is a kind of harm, rather than an enhancement of life.

Sombody could say, "Prove it".

A drawn out conversation swirls around it for months or years, but neither party proves anything. There is no body of statistical data, no science of love, of the heart. Biology isn't enough. Measurements cannot be taken.

So all I'm saying is, Beware! Be Aware! Pay attention. Look closely!

For the laboratory is in the center of your own chest, is in the core -- is the core -- of your own most sensitive awareness.

I never said we all have our lights on in that "laboratory". I never meant "laboratory" to be other than a metaphor.

Perhaps one day we will have a science of human love. In the meanwhile, we're going to be running around in these kinds of circles.
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  #95  
Old 01-14-2010, 12:22 AM
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Perhaps one day we will have a science of human love. .
Maybe they'll find a cure LOL!...a little bit of truth in that
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  #96  
Old 01-14-2010, 12:24 AM
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So all I'm saying is, Beware! Be Aware! Pay attention. Look closely!

For the laboratory is in the center of your own chest, is in the core -- is the core -- of your own most sensitive awareness.

I never said we all have our lights on in that "laboratory". I never meant "laboratory" to be other than a metaphor.

Perhaps one day we will have a science of human love. In the meanwhile, we're going to be running around in these kinds of circles.
This seems to assume that those who see things differently than you do just haven't been paying enough attention or are not in touch with their heart centers, etc.

I'm going to disagree on that.
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  #97  
Old 01-14-2010, 12:28 AM
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So you think I think I'm superior to all of you mere humans, huh?
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  #98  
Old 01-14-2010, 12:31 AM
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So you think I think I'm superior to all of you mere humans, huh?
Nope. I'm just going by what you're saying in your posts. When you tell others to "Be aware, pay attention, and look closely" it suggests that you think that perhaps their viewpoint is a product of not "being aware, paying attention or looking closely".

I would suggest that is not the case.
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  #99  
Old 01-14-2010, 12:34 AM
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So you think I think I'm superior to all of you mere humans, huh?
Well I for one do!
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  #100  
Old 01-14-2010, 09:04 PM
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Well, I don't subscribe to the theory or doctrine that all ways of relating are equally good, valid, healthy, etc.

And since apparently I'm now a bad guy because of it, with Mono apparently calling me arrogant because of it, I think I'll just take an extended break from this polyamory.com . It isn't feeling good for me just now.
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