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  #61  
Old 01-04-2010, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dakid View Post
i just hope that attitude will ensure that you are never tempted to tell others that their practises are "not poly",
x
There are cases where I will say this. If some one wants to call affairs poly I will call it. If some one uses the term poly to coerce a partner into letting them fuck around I will call it. Poly has a basic standard of honesty and respect for all involved that I recognize. But for the most part I will keep quiet...I'll will really really try
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  #62  
Old 01-04-2010, 08:49 PM
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you mean secret affairs i presume? as in cheating? because over here we talk about (love) affairs without necessarily meaning that at all.

x
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  #63  
Old 01-04-2010, 09:21 PM
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But rejecting a word because of the connotations and prejudices attached to the word isn't sticking hard and fast to the definition of the word. It sounds like you're choosing to stick to the descriptions instead of the word in order not to be associated with the prejudices that others may attach to the word.

The only trouble is that by rejecting the word as such, it can appear to other poly people that you hold the same prejudices about people who are poly that that others may hold when they attach such prejudices to the word. This probably isn't the case, but it can come across that way.
I feel I am stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment with all this. Perhaps it is better if I don't talk about it on here. Maybe, but I am hoping that by doing so there will be some understanding between everyone, possibly at my expense. So be it I guess.

I'm sorry if I come across as attaching prejudice to the word polyamorous. That is not my attempt. I am simply stuck with the yucky task of trying to be more mainstream in terms of my extended family. I am finding that in order to protect my family I need to adopt some mainstream version for ourselves that is acceptable to my family in order to make sure they don't attempt to have my son removed. I don't like this at all. It makes me feel sick sometimes, but it is necessary in terms of making sure what we have is safe. I feel very threatened by some of my family members who think I am fucking people randomly in front of my son. They think I talk about sex all the time and that we are invovlved in some kind of cult I'm sure. One such as religious polygamists. They already object to the music my son listens to, his clothes, what he likes to do. What he says in terms of his beliefs that we have taught him. Beliefs he has chosen for himself I might add, not that we have made him have. They see all of it as a sign that we are fucking with his head. That our lifestyle is bad for him. That is very dangerous to me.

If anyone has read the thread Mono started during our coming out time this past August you would know further why I feel threatened. It is a real threat. Not something I made up. I am sometimes shocked and horrified at how real it is. My instinct as a mother says, fuck all of you, my bond with my son is threatened. I can tell you now, no mother will now to anyone when their childs safety is threatened. It may seem that way, but, just between you and me, I am pretending and playing mainstream in order to protect my son. I would do ANYTHING including destroying a term I believe in to do that. The term/word/definition of poly means nothing to me where he is concerned. If I can use it and make it so others coming up behind me can use it as a respectable word in the eyes of society , I will do so.

Its not the same when a child is involved in polyamorous relationships . If I didn't have one I would gladly add sexual expression definitions to the definition of poly. I do feel here and in my community that they are worthy of including but I was hoping to rely on a non-sexual definition of poly in terms of presentation in my world and larger community. There is no other definition that takes sex out of its definition that I know of, other than multi-partners I guess or non-monogamy. The word monogamy doesn't have the same sex presence as poly does it seems. At least using a term that has that in it makes it somehow more acceptable to use with relatives. We all know, I think, that when we talk about monogamy, we are talking about relationship and sex. I struggle to see any definition out there that is floating around in mainstream culture that sees poly the same way and I think because it "is" an umbrella term rather than falling under the umbrella of non-monogamy. Correct me if I am wrong and please please let me know if there is anything that will "make" poly look more like a connection based relationship style rather than "this person is fucking that person and that person at the same time."

I'm not a reader unfortunately, this forum is sometimes more than my dyslexic brain can handle, so I'm not up on all the books people talk about on here personally. I rely on other people who's opinion I respect to tell me when there are good ones to read and pass on to my parents. I have given them info from on-line sources and gave them "love without limits," it has done nothing and I think may of added fuel to their fire. I thought I might try "pagan poly" or "poly pagan" or something, I will have to ask my friend again for the name, to see if that will help them understand. My mum is up on her pagan stuff although she is a christain.

If anyone reads back to before we came out you will see that I used to include other sexual expressions in my definition of poly. Its only because of this recent situation that I feel forced to find a different definition.

I don't know... It is all very desperate for me. This week is a big week in poly history in terms of the interveners coming together to incorporate (? I think that is what I understood they were doing, becoming a orginization of some kind so as to act as a body that is recognizable in court). A/The definition of poly will be made out of this and I am anxious to see what that will be. I don't know what will happen after, but it will bring interesting times for anyone that identifies as poly. For me it will mean the difference between getting invovled or not in terms of joining the cause to change the polygamy laws in Canada (or is it just in BC?). It may make a difference to any of us who have kids that need protecting.
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  #64  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:06 PM
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If he doesn't acknowledge it, does it make their poly any LESS poly than his poly?

It seems as though if you know yourself, you don't need to have others acknowledge that sort of thing. If I needed someone else to validate a label I gave myself, then I'd ask myself if that thing is really part of me or am I just trying to impress or shock people?
This is true but the one thing I do recognize is that those who hold the mindset that the shape and form my relationships take is somehow wrong, could take that to the governmental level and use government to hurt me with laws that put me and my loved at a disadvantage or subject to scrutiny in order to my life miserable no matter what life choice I decide to make. Adding to what the mainstream does already.

The concept of losing children because one's family is not seen as the norm is nothing new. The majority of the children within the foster care system are children of color. Ridiculously disproportionate in states like Arizona where the majority is overwhelmingly white. This has not stopped families of color from keeping their own traditions of what a family should be and how they should function.

redpepper, I understand. I understand the terror you are feeling and I feel... well I can't quite express what I feel at the raw-ness of what you just expressed to us here.

But don't you think we, we who see polyamory in the different ways that we do, that even so, do you not think that we'd want to help you? That we'd go to bat for you. Seek to protect you. That we'd support you. Don't you think it hurts us to see someone who loves similarly to how we love persecuted in this manner? It is like reaching out in love, yes in love and being told "no we don't want to be associated with you because it would taint us in the eyes of those who don't remotely believe what we're doing is right, in the eyes of those who would hurt us." Separating yourself from others within the poly community hurts more on this basis and then how are we able to help each other then. Divided and weakened. No help to each other and easily dismissed by mainstream.

~Raven~
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Last edited by Ravenesque; 01-04-2010 at 10:08 PM.
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  #65  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:16 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
This is true but the one thing I do recognize is that those who hold the mindset that the shape and form my relationships take is somehow wrong, could take that to the governmental level and use government to hurt me with laws that put me and my loved at a disadvantage or subject to scrutiny in order to my life miserable no matter what life choice I decide to make. Adding to what the mainstream does already.

They shouldn't discriminate against swingers or people with fuck-buddies either.

Perhaps they should discriminate against people with fuck-buddies ONLY if you don't "love" your fuck-buddy.
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  #66  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:36 PM
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Redpepper, I do get where you're coming from and appreciate that you need to make decisions to protect your family just as all of us have to do the same.

All I was saying is that the sex part is just an assumed part of the definition, that's all. It's a prejudicial view that polyamory is all about the sex. The thing is, regardless of the definition of the word, people are going to make those judgements. Rejecting the word doesn't prevent the judgements. That's why communication and explanation hold a lot more weight than which label is chosen. And you've been very clear and great about doing that. But rejecting labels can sometimes have the opposite of the intended effect in that it legitimizes the prejudice rather than addresses it. That's all I was getting at.
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  #67  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
This is true but the one thing I do recognize is that those who hold the mindset that the shape and form my relationships take is somehow wrong, could take that to the governmental level and use government to hurt me with laws that put me and my loved at a disadvantage or subject to scrutiny in order to my life miserable no matter what life choice I decide to make. Adding to what the mainstream does already.

The concept of losing children because one's family is not seen as the norm is nothing new. The majority of the children within the foster care system are children of color. Ridiculously disproportionate in states like Arizona where the majority is overwhelmingly white. This has not stopped families of color from keeping their own traditions of what a family should be and how they should function.

redpepper, I understand. I understand the terror you are feeling and I feel... well I can't quite express what I feel at the raw-ness of what you just expressed to us here.

But don't you think we, we who see polyamory in the different ways that we do, that even so, do you not think that we'd want to help you? That we'd go to bat for you. Seek to protect you. That we'd support you. Don't you think it hurts us to see someone who loves similarly to how we love persecuted in this manner? It is like reaching out in love, yes in love and being told "no we don't want to be associated with you because it would taint us in the eyes of those who don't remotely believe what we're doing is right, in the eyes of those who would hurt us." Separating yourself from others within the poly community hurts more on this basis and then how are we able to help each other then. Divided and weakened. No help to each other and easily dismissed by mainstream.

~Raven~
I agree raven which is why I wanted to be invovled monthes ago in interveneing. I just didn't have time. There are some really amazing poly people invovled that are fully aware of the definition debate, I am sure they will do their best to represent everyone. I have to trust that right now.

Please be patient. I am finding my feet within all this along with realizing that my own BLOOD is a threat. I have never experienced this before and we are definitely working towards establishing ourselves so that we can fight back if need be. I can PM you with those details as I don't feel comfortable posting them, but until that happens I am unable to accept and trust others to the extent that I would want them to help. Its a pride thing and a time for me to pull my family together. Just incase.
I can tell you this my friend, when we get organized and we find out about what will happen in court I will be fighting tooth and nail if it means our protection and others including those who live poly differently. I would welcome any help then. Until then, please let me quietly prepare. I will use the term for poly that will protect us until I feel safe.
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  #68  
Old 01-04-2010, 10:51 PM
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you mean secret affairs i presume? as in cheating? because over here we talk about (love) affairs without necessarily meaning that at all.

x
Secret affairs..yes. The kind I was involved in that hurt and humiliate the unknown partners.
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  #69  
Old 01-04-2010, 11:12 PM
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Redpepper, I do get where you're coming from and appreciate that you need to make decisions to protect your family just as all of us have to do the same.

All I was saying is that the sex part is just an assumed part of the definition, that's all. It's a prejudicial view that polyamory is all about the sex. The thing is, regardless of the definition of the word, people are going to make those judgements. Rejecting the word doesn't prevent the judgements. That's why communication and explanation hold a lot more weight than which label is chosen. And you've been very clear and great about doing that. But rejecting labels can sometimes have the opposite of the intended effect in that it legitimizes the prejudice rather than addresses it. That's all I was getting at.
Yes I see what you mean and agree. Thanks for pointing that out. I totally get where you are coming from.
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  #70  
Old 01-05-2010, 12:22 AM
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They shouldn't discriminate against swingers or people with fuck-buddies either.

Perhaps they should discriminate against people with fuck-buddies ONLY if you don't "love" your fuck-buddy.

Don't think that I don't know where you're going with that. I don't know if you're playing devil's advocate or being serious but I do agree with the point. Trust me.

And I've made it several times. I was involved in a discussion where the most disdainful, conservative and sex-negative arguments were being made as to why swingers should be excluded and why swingers would not find resources among polyamorists. Again it is a matter of moralizing polyamory above other forms of non-monogamy. *makes grabby hands* "Oooh, swingers are the big bad. They're gonna come and try to fuck you when you don't want them to. While you're sleeping dear god *wails* while... you're... sleeping... Protect your children. Protect your ass. It will be Armageddon! Ahhh!!"

I find nothing wrong with someone fucking someone else for whatever reason, whether it is one fuck or several fuckings over time. Recreational fucking or fucking only within one set of guidelines. If they assert no emotional attachment *shrugs* I'd advocate sexual safety. I'd also advocate that they have the same rights as others. And I do think it could be a legitimate part of someone's polyamorous style. As it could be a part of someone's swinger style. It could be a part of someone's style in BDSM. Whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
Redpepper, I do get where you're coming from and appreciate that you need to make decisions to protect your family just as all of us have to do the same.

All I was saying is that the sex part is just an assumed part of the definition, that's all. It's a prejudicial view that polyamory is all about the sex. The thing is, regardless of the definition of the word, people are going to make those judgements. Rejecting the word doesn't prevent the judgements. That's why communication and explanation hold a lot more weight than which label is chosen. And you've been very clear and great about doing that. But rejecting labels can sometimes have the opposite of the intended effect in that it legitimizes the prejudice rather than addresses it. That's all I was getting at.
A prejudicial view of polyamory which houses a prejudiced view of sex. Sex = negative unless it be purified by the cleansing waters of love. Because love (what is love again? Someone bring me a definition ) is the reason having sex would not be some dirty rank thing. Sex-negative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I agree raven which is why I wanted to be invovled monthes ago in interveneing. I just didn't have time. There are some really amazing poly people invovled that are fully aware of the definition debate, I am sure they will do their best to represent everyone. I have to trust that right now.

Please be patient. I am finding my feet within all this along with realizing that my own BLOOD is a threat. I have never experienced this before and we are definitely working towards establishing ourselves so that we can fight back if need be. I can PM you with those details as I don't feel comfortable posting them, but until that happens I am unable to accept and trust others to the extent that I would want them to help. Its a pride thing and a time for me to pull my family together. Just incase.
I can tell you this my friend, when we get organized and we find out about what will happen in court I will be fighting tooth and nail if it means our protection and others including those who live poly differently. I would welcome any help then. Until then, please let me quietly prepare. I will use the term for poly that will protect us until I feel safe.

I would not tell you what you choose to do to protect your family is right or wrong. It is down to what feels right for you.

I just do not connect with an "every human for themselves" point of view and I don't ever suppose I will. I see myself as apart of the world. Interconnected. My actions affect others and their actions affect me. I got teary reading your post and I feel sad that that is the path you feel forced to take.

It seems to come down to a decision of whether it's worth it to protect some people at the expense of others.

~Raven~
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Rest your weary head and let your heart decide. It's so easy.
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Last edited by Ravenesque; 01-05-2010 at 12:25 AM.
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