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  #121  
Old 01-03-2010, 04:34 PM
dakid dakid is offline
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Originally Posted by quila View Post
I want to pick up on the fact that the root of this debate is "what is love?" And that's a question that philosophers have been struggling with since forever, and do we honestly think we're ever going to solve it in any forum?

Since polyamory literally means multiple loves, there's just no room to debate its meaning. Then it seems to come down to judgement over one person's preferred form of love to another's.

Teenagers feel one kind of love, then they grow up and feel a different, more mature kind... or else they don't, and they keep on having semi-meaningful but basically unhealthy relationships for the rest of their lives. Some people are emotionally damaged and believe that sex means love.

Most adults are relatively healthy and understand the shades of gray between true love and meaningless sex.

It seems you all agree that polyamory means multiple loves. Now me personally, I've never felt love-feelings for a fuck buddy. I used them for sex, they used me for sex, we both knew we were doing it, and we were both happy to do it.

Most of the thread was more confused on the definition of "fuck buddy" than it was on polyamory. Some people took for granted that we'd assume they love their fuck-buddy, so they were offended when others said that fuck buddies aren't part of the polyamorous relationship.

The vegetarian chicken eater analogy doesn't work because vegetarian defines what you DON'T do (eat meat), and polyamory defines what you DO do (love multiple people at the same time). The best analogy I can come up with is:
non-monogamy = people who eat something other than red meat
polyamory = people who like tofu (a sub-class of people who eat something other than red meat)
people with fuck-buddies = people who eat chicken (some of them like tofu and some of them don't, but all of them eat something other than red meat)
who are you to be labelling other people relationships as "semi-meaningful but basically unhealthy"? by what standards do you make such judgements? i wonder who you mean when you say this, and what gives you the power/knowledge to decide.

you could have chosen to say that some people's relationships appear unhealthy to you, or wouldn't work for you, but you didn't. instead you make sweeping and insulting statements without qualification. i suggest you think a little before doing that again as it is extremely offensive. so many out there do exactly that to anyone who lives outside the monogamous-for-life box, many of us here experience the damage that can create, time to learn not to do that to others surely?

who is it exactly that you are accusing of being "emotionally damaged" and believing that "sex equals love"? i do not understand how these statements are relevant to this thread since i cannot find any evidence of anyone here doing this. i certainly don't think that sex equals love, who here does?

you have had a fuck-buddy with whom you felt no love. that worked for you, fine. as i have stated i did and do feel love for the person that was until recently my fuck-buddy.

personally if i want to "use" something for sex i use my right-hand, and sometimes a dildo or vibrator. i achieve fabulous orgasms that way.

however if i want to regularly connect sexually with another human being, in a loving but not romantic way, i do so with a fellow human being. everybody and every relationship is unique and i am able to acknowledge that. from reading your post i get the feeling perhaps you can't, which is a shame.

i don't and haven't "taken for granted that [anybody would] assume i'd love my fuck-buddy" but i did and do love him. i said so, so that others would know that. if i thought you'd already assume that i wouldn't have bothered to say so because i'd think you already knew. i am well aware that not everybody loves their fuck-buddy but i do. i am able to accept and respect differences between people.

seems to me you are stuck on a very limited concept of love, similar to the disney happy-forever-after kind of romantic love, which i would say is just one sort. i acknowledge that sort exists and has a value for some, but i object to denial of the existence of other forms of love such as the love i feel for my friends and yes that includes my fuck-buddy.

if views like yours are really acceptable here then it seems i must accept that this is not the polyamory forum for me. no poly person i have ever met in the uk has spouted such tripe so maybe the answer for me is to stay within the uk poly community, which feels a shame but i am not going to expose myself any further to such disgusting attitudes when they are freely available in the mainstream hetero-monogamous world i live in.
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  #122  
Old 01-03-2010, 06:05 PM
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crisare crisare is offline
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i did and do feel love for the person that was until recently my fuck-buddy..
Ok, of that whole post, this just slapped me in the face.

Perhaps the issue is here, dakid, that I (and a few others) don't understand your frame of reference or your terminology (and I referenced this in the other thread as well).

To me a fuck buddy is someone who I don't love who I interact with purely for the purpose of getting my ashes hauled. Doesn't mean I might not like the or we might not be friendly, but not someone I love.

If there were someone I felt love for and who I had sex with, I would not call that person a "fuck buddy". If I feel love for someone who I am physically intimate with on a regular basis, that is a lover or a partner or a b/f or g/f. In fact, to me, calling someone I love my "fuck buddy" seems hateful and harmful - both to them, to me, and to our relationship.

So ... perhaps this is at the heart of this misunderstanding. You use the word fuckbuddy as many of us would use lover or companion or partner.
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  #123  
Old 01-03-2010, 06:07 PM
dakid dakid is offline
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no he was my fuck buddy. just like H is my tennis-buddy. both friends. i love my friends. its not complicated, really. i am not going to explain any further, look through my previous posts and you will see i have explained repeatedly and thoroughly. some people just don't want to understand it seems to me, i am not going to do your work for you. think, imagine, stretch your brains, if you want, and if you don't want to then nothing i say will ever get through. i'll save my energy for other things from now on.

Last edited by dakid; 01-03-2010 at 06:09 PM.
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  #124  
Old 01-03-2010, 06:16 PM
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crisare crisare is offline
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Originally Posted by dakid View Post
some people just don't want to understand it seems to me, i am not going to do your work for you. think, imagine, stretch your brains, if you want, and if you don't want to then nothing i say will ever get through.
And this is why, when you insist on defining things they way YOU want to define them, that communication becomes non-existent. You insist on using whatever meaning YOU want to for common phrases that mean something else and then get angry and defensive when other people don't understand what you mean.

This is exactly why defining words is so important. Not to be exclusionary, but to avoid exactly this kind of situation.
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  #125  
Old 01-03-2010, 06:28 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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Originally Posted by dakid View Post

if views like yours are really acceptable here then it seems i must accept that this is not the polyamory forum for me. no poly person i have ever met in the uk has spouted such tripe so maybe the answer for me is to stay within the uk poly community, which feels a shame but i am not going to expose myself any further to such disgusting attitudes when they are freely available in the mainstream hetero-monogamous world i live in.
Kinda just goes to show that there really is no difference between mono and poly relationships except for the number of people involved.

It is, however, refreshing to see that the entire poly community in the UK has overcome "such disgusting attitudes".

Personally, I'm offended by something almost every time I log on to the internet, and almost every time I leave my house, and it has very little to do with the "poly community" or the "hetero-monogamous world" per se.

I wish you good luck insulating yourself from other people's viewpoints that make you feel threatened. That is certainly one way to go about handling an exchange of ideas on a public forum.
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  #126  
Old 01-03-2010, 08:33 PM
HappiestManAlive HappiestManAlive is offline
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It all goes back to the fact that no two people view any two things exactly the same way. In my not so humble opinon, the whole concept of agreeing on a specific definition to "make comminucation easier" is counterproductive. The more you seek to define something, the more detailed the definition, the more room there is for confusion.

I see this all the time with rules and laws. The more specific you try to make them, the more loopholes you create. It's chaos theory and quantum mechanics as they apply to language and communication, lol. Literally.

From there, those that have been saying "define what it's NOT" are closer to the right track - but still trying to tack down a specific definition from the other side, and ultimately that will lead to the same result.

The simpler and wider the definition, the less open to interpretation it becomes. Backwards? Not really. There are very, very few terms in any language that aren't subject to this kind of "definition entropy". I would go so far as to say none, or very nearly so.

Ultimately, even those who agree on a given definition will find that as that definietion is further narrowed, they find things about which they disagree. This entire "defining poly" thing is an exerscise in futility.
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  #127  
Old 01-03-2010, 09:16 PM
quila quila is offline
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Originally Posted by dakid View Post
who are you to be labelling other people relationships as "semi-meaningful but basically unhealthy"? by what standards do you make such judgements? i wonder who you mean when you say this, and what gives you the power/knowledge to decide.

you could have chosen to say that some people's relationships appear unhealthy to you, or wouldn't work for you, but you didn't. instead you make sweeping and insulting statements without qualification. i suggest you think a little before doing that again as it is extremely offensive. so many out there do exactly that to anyone who lives outside the monogamous-for-life box, many of us here experience the damage that can create, time to learn not to do that to others surely?

who is it exactly that you are accusing of being "emotionally damaged" and believing that "sex equals love"? i do not understand how these statements are relevant to this thread since i cannot find any evidence of anyone here doing this. i certainly don't think that sex equals love, who here does?
I find it curious that you took my statements personally... I neither said nor implied that anyone on this forum's relationships are emotionally damaged, un-meaningful, or that they believe sex equals love.

If we can agree that polyamory means many loves, then that's good enough. Love is 100% subjective, so there's no value in including the definition of love within the definition of polyamory. And if it feels loving and it makes you happy, then it IS loving, whether it lasts 10 years or 20 minutes. We all have a personal interpretation of what love is TO US. Whether you're talking about loving many different people or just one, you still have to explain what you mean by love.

As it related to the thread, I think this was my train of thought: Polyamory means many loves. Some people don't perceive certain relationships as loving, such as one night stands, but others do. There is no single "right way to feel love" ... if it feels to you like love for the night, then who is anyone to tell you otherwise without crawling inside your brain? But there are clear examples of relationships which may show some common criteria for love but which are in fact unhealthy, such as many abusive relationships. At the extremes, there are examples where almost everyone can agree "this is love" and "this is not love" but most relationships fall somewhere in the middle, and will appear as love to some people but not to others. Tying that back to polyamory, it makes it impossible to include the definition of love within the definition of polyamory, because there IS NO hard & fast definition of love. But there is a hard & fast definition of polyamory, which is many loves. The problem seems to come in when some people look at certain relationship types (such as one night stands) as being incapable of being loving, because they're using their own personal interpretation of love.

Who am I to label some relationships as unhealthy? I'm the child of parents who verbally and emotionally abused each other. I witnessed the pain it caused them, and experienced the pain it caused me. That relationship was not healthy, and I'm not going to pansy around and say "it didn't appear healthy to me." They did feel love for one another, but were unable to communicate their problems in a responsible, loving manner. That made their relationship semi-meaningful but basically unhealthy.
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Last edited by quila; 01-03-2010 at 09:20 PM.
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  #128  
Old 01-03-2010, 09:27 PM
dakid dakid is offline
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thank you so much for clarifying that quila. i accept i may be getting somewhat defensive due to so many negative statements floating about these boards where the fact that i do feel love for people i am not partnered to gets negated and misunderstood. i thoroughly agree with the sentiments of your more recent post, and appreciate you taking the time to explain.
x
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  #129  
Old 01-03-2010, 09:33 PM
dakid dakid is offline
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Originally Posted by quila View Post
if it feels loving and it makes you happy, then it IS loving, whether it lasts 10 years or 20 minutes.
i particularly love this part of your post. i have been struggling to say exactly this - and have wasted far too many words in my attempts - whereas you have summed it up beautifully and with brevity, an ability i very much admire

x
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  #130  
Old 01-03-2010, 09:36 PM
quila quila is offline
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Originally Posted by dakid View Post
its not complicated, really. i am not going to explain any further, look through my previous posts and you will see i have explained repeatedly and thoroughly. some people just don't want to understand it seems to me, i am not going to do your work for you. think, imagine, stretch your brains, if you want, and if you don't want to then nothing i say will ever get through. i'll save my energy for other things from now on.
If it's so uncomplicated, there shouldn't be a need to review your posts to find out how you personally define the term.

It seems that you're the one who doesn't want to understand the common usage of the term "fuck buddy" and instead expects the rest of us to research your own personal definition, just so that you don't have to bother learning the common terms for your relationship types.

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Originally Posted by crisare View Post
In fact, to me, calling someone I love my "fuck buddy" seems hateful and harmful - both to them, to me, and to our relationship.
Amen to that! The very usage of the word "fuck" makes it crass and emotionless. If I want to portray a romantic attraction, no matter how brief, I would call them a lover. If I only love them as a friend, I would call them a friend with benefits. I've had fuck buddies with whom I didn't even click as a casual friend, but the sex was amazing, and that's what made them a fuck buddy as opposed to a friend with benefits, which I've also had.
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