Poly Standards, Theory, and Practice

[CielDuMatin]

Originally Posted by dakid

what i am hearing is that yes this is another forum where some will tell me that i am not in polyamorous relationship, where my identity and lifestyle may not be respected. perhaps i am misunderstanding? hope so.
x

Yes I think you are misunderstanding. I think we are as tolerant as most sites out there when it comes to definitions of poly.

[crisare]

Originally Posted by dakid

potentially to warn others similarly should i ever hear them talk of joining it...

So you would badmouth a site to others, having never visited it and knowing nothing of it other than one side of a disagreement that someone has dragged into an unrelated forum?

And yet you have said that you "pity" people on this forum who aren't as open minded as you think they should be or for making judgments that you think they shouldn't be making? Didn't you say just a few posts ago:

i am certainly forming lots of opinions and judgements about the small-mindedness of some folk on here, and feeling pity for them at the same time. makes me glad to be me, and to live here, instead of in their world.

Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy here?

[dakid]

thank you. i take all of your points on board.

when i mentioned warning others, i simply meant telling a friend something like "be careful because you may find others on that site who will tell you what you do is not poly" - nothing more and nothing less.

it can be painful to have one's reality denied. i and many of my friends grew up queer and are still healing from wounds inflicted on our sense of self. therefore i may well still raise this issue about a website if i hear from someone i trust that they have felt their reality denied on that website.

i don't think this makes me small-minded, and i do indeed intend to check it out for myself as soon as i get time to do so.

i would never make a claim i could not back up but i would tell a friend the facts i know - that one other person has shared a particular experience. i can now add that others have shared other experiences. i would of course always leave it to said friend to make up their own minds, and would at no point be "badmouthing" the site simply sharing what i have learnt about it recently.

x

[dakid]

with my queer background i am used to folk self-identifying and that being given utmost respect. so i guess i am struggling with this need to create distinctions between for example swinging and poly, instead of acceptance that if a person or persons identify their relationship as poly then it is poly. regardless of what their sexual and/or social activities are at the moment.

it seems i have made some mistakes here on this thread, in sticking my nose into something which i don't really understand - ie the history of the birdcage website. there seems to be pain here around this subject and i am sorry for any sad memories i may have triggered in my clumsiness.

x

[crisare]

Dakid ... I appreciate your willingness to step back and recognize things in yourself. I will say straight up that I'm not affiliated with the other site mentioned, I've never visited it, I don't know anything about the people involved in the struggle other than what has been posted here. But I have run message boards before and I know how things can get blown WAY out of proportion. Your use of the word "warn" in your initial comment was what triggered my response to you. It's one thing to say you've heard about the board and here's what you've heard vs. warning someone off of it. I appreciate you acknowledging the difference as well.

Originally Posted by dakid

i am struggling with this need to create distinctions between for example swinging and poly, instead of acceptance that if a person or persons identify their relationship as poly then it is poly. regardless of what their sexual and/or social activities are at the moment

I am speaking only for myself here, but this is my take on the difference:

First of all - if someone wants to self-identify as poly and continue to swing as well, I don't have any issue with that.

I am currently ... exploring, let's say ... a relationship with someone who swings. He and his wife have multiple sexual partners, some of whom are casual hookups and some of whom are closer friends. But they do not practice a lifestyle wherein they build close romantic relationships with their partners. To me that's the fundamental difference between poly and swinging and he and I have discussed this in depth and we both agree with this distinction.

He and I have become very close friends and recently realized that we both have stronger feelings for each other. We have talked about the fact that I am very close to considering him a partner for me; I love him and I desire him and he is a major part of my life.

His wife is not interested in pursuing a relationship of that kind - with me or with anyone. She will continue to swing with him with other couples. He and I will continue to have a relationship that is additional to that. I will be secondary to his primary relationship with his wife.

If his wife were to identify as poly simply because she swings and because her husband was involved in a poly relationship, I would have an issue with that - because she is not poly. She may be a metamour to her husband's poly relationship, but she herself has no desire to build a strong, lasting, romantic relationship with her partners. She's happy to enjoy the casual contact, perhaps be friends, and that's it. She doesn't want the connection to move past that.

I, on the other hand, have NO desire whatsoever to swing. None. I personally cannot appreciate or enjoy that kind of casual sexual contact, even if it were with friends. He and I have discussed this extensively - that I have no problem at all with someone else doing it - he and his wife or whoever - but I know my comfort and trust levels require more of a relationship before I can move to that level.

To me that is the fundamental difference between poly and swinging ... and when someone who swings says their lifestyle is poly, I believe it creates confusion among those who don't understand the difference.

I don't think that defining a term means you're being exclusionary, unless you choose to see it that way. And then I'd question why someone would feel the need to use that word and would feel excluded by not being included in the definition of that word. What is it about THAT word that you are upset that it doesn't describe you? And why is there not another word that describes you better?

But then again, I am fascinated by language and I believe in having precise language - how else are we to communicate? So I don't see definition as being exclusionary - I see it as an opportunity to be precise and clear and to understand and be understood.

[dakid]

what upsets me is the part where a relationship has to be "lasting" in order to be deemed poly. (lasting how long it seems nobody is willing to say).

i can love and be intimate with someone for just one night or for several years, and i would see that one-night of love as very different to swinging. i have in the past been more of a swinger and have no problem with being seen as one, it just isn't accurate to where i am at now in my interractions with others.

as it happens i do have two ongoing, lasting relationships which i think you would perceive as poly. i also had a five-year fcuk buddy relationship which some might not, but i do - because there was/is love there (just not the romantic kind). i may tomorrow choose to have loving intimate sex with somebody as a one-off, and i would identify that as poly. that's the thing...

x

[redpepper]

So, ummm, I don't really know what this is all about, but it seems to me that when someone says they have a problem with something a group has done, that most people will go and check it out for themselves. Especially on line when it's a click away.

Great advertizing for another forum really if you ask me.

nothing like drama to point people right to the very thing that caused the drama...

it's kind of like the thread I created about Ashley Madison. A dating site for cheaters. I abhor the whole idea of it and thought, before I wrote the thread that if I write it then someone will go and check it out and perhaps use it But I figure that most people are smart enough to form their own opinion on things and that I should treat everyone as if they have the smarts to make up their own mind. Several people checked it out and we discussed it at length.... the more the discussion the better because the more people will have a chance to decide for themselves.

[dakid]

asolutely redpepper. i will certainly be checking it out myself! however it will take me somewhat more than one click, i expect i will need to read quite a lot before i can get a sense of the site. so i'm not planning to do it tonight (i am already multi-tasking somewhat as i write this!) and would rather give it proper time and respect. wish i had not posted what i did before doing so, but its done now and i have apologised for any hurt i may have caused. i did mean that sincerely.
x

[redpepper]

Originally Posted by dakid

asolutely redpepper. i will certainly be checking it out myself! however it will take me somewhat more than one click, i expect i will need to read quite a lot before i can get a sense of the site. so i'm not planning to do it tonight (i am already multi-tasking somewhat as i write this!) and would rather give it proper time and respect. wish i had not posted what i did before doing so, but its done now and i have apologised for any hurt i may have caused. i did mean that sincerely.
x

yes I'm sure it will take more than one click. I am going to check it out later too. Back to multi-taking myself.... with a wicked hangover.... *ouch*

[crisare]

Ok, I am honestly trying to understand your point of view here.

what upsets me is the part where a relationship has to be "lasting" in order to be deemed poly. (lasting how long it seems nobody is willing to say).

Why does it upset you? Also, where in my post did I say "lasting". Let's make sure that we are discussing the same thing and that you're not misreading or misrepresenting what I've said. I specifically said that my love and I have discussed that poly involves: "build[ing] close romantic relationships with their partners" I never said "lasting" ... although I will agree that "building" does imply that there is time and effort involved that would indicate a relationship would last more than a short period of time.

i can love and be intimate with someone for just one night or for several years, and i would see that one-night of love as very different to swinging.

How is it different from swinging? I truly truly don't understand that. If you are not building a relationship that moves past one night of sexual contact then how is that not swinging? Or if you are basing that relationship on sex w/out the intention of building a romantic partnership, how is that different from swinging?

i may tomorrow choose to have loving intimate sex with somebody as a one-off, and i would identify that as poly. that's the thing...

But a one-off isn't a relationship. The sex can be loving and caring and considerate, but it's still one-off, one night stand sex, right? So in what way is that not swinging?

I guess what I'm seeing here is that you don't want to use the word "swinging" to describe your actions - for whatever reason. So it appears to me that you choose to use the word "poly" to describe all of your sexual contact, regardless of the type of relationship it is, with the specific intention of avoiding calling it swinging. You say that you have no problem with being seen as one ... but it doesn't describe how you interact now. So can you explain to me better how what you do is NOT swinging?

Edited to say .. I really don't want my post to come across as combative or hostile or anything. I'm just confused by your position and I'm really wanting to understand better what it is you're saying and how you are defining the relationships in your life.