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  #31  
Old 04-08-2014, 02:52 PM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by vanquish View Post
You assumed a whole bunch of stuff about the guys motivations and ended up being wrong. You were rude and instead of apologizing you're doubling down.
I still don't agree that I was wrong. This all started because he said he's forming a poly group. He has a checklist of identities he wants in that group. He wants to check off the "trans woman" from his list. He even called them "unicorns" because he's having trouble checking off the box.

I asked for a reason why he wanted to date trans women as something other than tokenism. "I've dated Trans Women in the past and had positive experiences with them, thus my desire to look for a Trans Woman" is supposed to be the answer. But it doesn't make sense. That's just a good reason not to rule them out. It's not a reason to narrow down the search. He's married to a cis woman, so obviously he's had positive experiences with cis women as well. It's also wishy-washy. You chose to be charitable and interpret that as "propensity for life experiences and personality qualities that you relate to and are attracted to." I chose to be critical and interpret it as "well, there's no reason not to."

Example of non-tokenism: "I'm a heterosexual trans man, and I've found that all the cis women I've dated just do not understand me and my struggles, so I've given up. Now I seek trans women because they understand what it's like to be born in the wrong body."

Example of tokenism: "I'm forming a group poly arrangement, and I'd like to add a trans woman to that group. Yeah yeah, she has to be kind and considerate and all that, but above all, she has to be trans. I already have a cis wife, so that box is checked. I'm also seeking to check off the cis male box. When all those boxes are checked off, my poly group will be complete."
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  #32  
Old 04-08-2014, 09:05 PM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
Example of tokenism: "I'm forming a group poly arrangement, and I'd like to add a trans woman to that group. Yeah yeah, she has to be kind and considerate and all that, but above all, she has to be trans. I already have a cis wife, so that box is checked. I'm also seeking to check off the cis male box. When all those boxes are checked off, my poly group will be complete."
Looks like you didn't notice my post earlier. He's not looking for cis males. The word was "mates". As in, partners. As in "I'm looking for trans women, but also for cis women. I just didn't specify it because it wasn't relevant" which puts a damper on your theory that it's about checking boxes, since either trans or cis would both be fine with him.

He's saying that the trans people he finds, specifically, are only interested in casual sex. He doesn't seem to have that problem with the cis people he finds. He's asking how to help with that.
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  #33  
Old 04-08-2014, 10:18 PM
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Vixtoria Vixtoria is offline
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OKay well while everyone argues what someone meant and what they think they meant and what it sounded like they meant TO THEM, I'm going to go back to the OP

Greetings! Welcome to the site! I see you have a few posts so it might have been pointed out already, but we prefer one account per person. For example, hubby has his account, I have mine. Instead of one that sort of shoves us together and shoves our names together. Especially in poly, it's easier to think of people as individuals that way.



Now as far as your question, I think you are overthinking it! Dating poly isn't a whole hell of a lot different than dating mono when you get into it. Sure, when you get to the comfortable stage of disclosure, you just have one more thing to disclose! I know it's a good idea to stick your toe in, so to speak, and see how accepting a group is. I do the same with new towns, schools, all of that.

So I'll just say that FOR THE MOST PART, poly people are as accepting as the queer community at large. Some are all whatever and accepting and some are all "You aren't really one of us!" Same as for us pansexuals, for bisexuals, well anyone that doesn't QUITE fit into an easily labeled box.
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  #34  
Old 04-09-2014, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by juliaandpatti View Post
Just like in other segments of society, transsexual people represent the fringe of the population, the same within the poly world as well?
Obviously it depends on the community(s) you have access to you wherever you are. I am athiest and independent polyamorist... living in the fucking bible belt. So to me, I am WAY out on the fringe, in that my dating pool is slim pickings. If I had another trait contrary to what is commonly accepted here my dating pool would adjust accordingly (pick a trait, they're all frowned on down here).

There is no universal poly community as far as I can tell, any more than there is a universal atheist community. Sure there are groups and get togethers but they are only going to be as populated as the local society will likely produce. So asking the world wide web what is fringe is illogical. The people you should be asking live in zip codes very close to you.

As far as 'unicorn', I'm not sure why you asked but, to me, the definition of is a bit too strict. While I understand the most common mythical creature sought after is the hot-bi-babe to suckle a couple, it would also be correct to call the search for any specific and unlikely combination of traits to be unicorn hunting. Granted, that is going against conventional use of the term but I think the conventional use is dumb... so yah.

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Originally Posted by rdpeete View Post
Definitely feel like finding a trans woman is a unicorn. My wife and I have been looking and haven't had much success... and by much success, I mean none at all. Most of the time we've found nothing but women who are purely interested in sex. We're hoping to have a group and I'd love to have a trans woman in it, but that seems highly unlikely at this point.
Without attacking you, I am also curious to know why a trans woman is something you find appealing in particular. I know you mentioned that you find women to be too interested in a sex only arrangement, but what is it about trans women that makes them the ideal? Are trans women more relationship oriented than women?

In my experience, pretty much everyone is relationship oriented and the people interested in casual or sex only relationships are few and far between. I have not known any trans women that I'm aware of so I'm wondering what leads you to the conclusion that they are more relationship oriented than women.
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  #35  
Old 04-09-2014, 02:35 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
Looks like you didn't notice my post earlier. He's not looking for cis males. The word was "mates". As in, partners. As in "I'm looking for trans women, but also for cis women. I just didn't specify it because it wasn't relevant" which puts a damper on your theory that it's about checking boxes, since either trans or cis would both be fine with him.
*fp*

I admit, I managed to mis-read it both times. Well, this is embarrassing.

Having read it as "cis males" each time, it appeared as multiple checkboxes... however, I do concede that "seeking women (be they cis or trans)" is not tokenistic.

But in that case, I really don't understand the unicorn reference. "Poly women" are not unicorns. "Trans women" are only unicorns if they're something you're seeking specifically but are unable to find.

If it seems like "all the trans women just want sex" then it's probably more accurate to say "all the trans women who respond to ads posted by people seeking trans women just want sex." Because all the trans women I know are just like all the cis women I know. Some of them want to date, some of them want to get married and have kids, and some of them just want sex.
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  #36  
Old 04-09-2014, 03:47 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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We'll have to ask the OP directly, but it's possible that by "unicorn" he only meant "I've had no luck with them".

I agree that it first read as tokenism. I'm still not 100% sure I understand why it's wrong, as people have fetishes, and I don't think having them is wrong in itself, and I don't think if you have them, you should go out of your way to find someone who doesn't match them, rather than look within the people who do...

But as someone who hasn't been fetishized that I know of, it's probably difficult for me to understand the feeling. I certainly understand what is wrong with people who give others no respect, but even people who are only looking for sexual gratification of a fetish, I don't see as more wrong than anyone else who seeks casual sex. The same rules apply: respect the person or people in front of you, be considerate, don't use them unless they want to be used, be safe.

A fetish, after all, is a strong attraction to something that isn't commonly considered attractive. Either that it's often considered unattractive (some body types, people over a certain age, in some cases people with some handicaps) or that it's not usually considered sexual in any way (feet, specific outfits, certain skin colours, some random stuff like statues or tupperwares or whatever).
If you're part of a group that is traditionally not considered attractive, that definitely sucks, and I understand resenting the hurt and lack of respect you usually get. But if you reject the people who are actually attracted to you, it just doesn't seem to leave you with much. And they didn't chose their kink anymore than you chose the thing you are that they happen to be attracted to.

It reminds me of the woman who was receiving daily foot massages until she realised that her boyfriend was a foot fetishist and from then on she refused them. She wrote to Dan Savage and his response boiled down to "So as soon as you realise that he also enjoyed the foot massages, you stopped enjoying them?" What did she want? Him to hate giving her a foot massage but do it anyways? Why is that a problem that they were both enjoying it?

So I still can't wrap my mind around it. I don't have to, since to my knowledge I'm not part of any such group, nor do I have any such fetish, but I would like to understand as it's obviously very important to the people involved (or people involved with them with some second hand experience of it, it seems).
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  #37  
Old 04-09-2014, 05:02 AM
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SchrodingersCat SchrodingersCat is offline
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Originally Posted by Tonberry View Post
But as someone who hasn't been fetishized that I know of, it's probably difficult for me to understand the feeling.
Yup, me too. All I can do is take the word of people who have been objectified by such fetishes that it hurts, and that's enough for me. I don't have to understand it, I can just accept it.

People with disabilities, trans people, obese people... by and large, people who fall outside of "typical" just want to be treated as "normal." Different, but normal. Not weird, not freakish, not fetishized. Just like you and me. They want to stand out for their accomplishments, for their talents, for their awesome hair. Not for their wheel chair or their gender identity.

I say "by and large" because just like there are people with a trans fetish, there are trans people who get off on being sought for being trans. "Chicks with Dicks" porn wouldn't exist if there weren't a few trans women willing to sell their dignity. But they're by far in the minority and it's inconsiderate to the trans community on the whole to believe all trans people should enjoy being fetishized.

Quote:
But if you reject the people who are actually attracted to you, it just doesn't seem to leave you with much.
To someone who's been dealing with closed-minded arrogant pricks all their lives, your statement could be perceived as "they're not good enough for the rest of us, so they should be happy with whatever they can get." I know that's not what you meant. But when you meet enough people who actually think that way, you start to see everything through filtered glasses.

Yes, they want people to be attracted to them, but for the same reasons as we all have: because we're smart, because we're funny, because we work out and eat well and have a smokin' hot bod.
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Last edited by SchrodingersCat; 04-09-2014 at 05:10 AM.
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  #38  
Old 04-09-2014, 06:35 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat View Post
Yes, they want people to be attracted to them, but for the same reasons as we all have: because we're smart, because we're funny, because we work out and eat well and have a smokin' hot bod.
... and that body is transgender. Also, I don't see why, people someone finds the fact that you're trans attractive, it would prevent them for loving you specifically, out of all the trans people, because you're smart, funny, your personalities match, etc. It's not like they necessarily settle for you because you're the first trans person they meet or something. You might just be the perfect mate for them.

I just don't know what I would be expected to do if I was attracted to trans people. Not say hi to them in a bar because they would feel objectified? Only hit on people I'm not attracted to?
I'm not the fetishist have it as bad as the people they're attracted to, mind you. What all these groups have in common is that they're treated pretty terribly by the general population, and that in itself must be pretty atrocious. But it seems to me you're saying that if you're with a trans person, it should be not because they're trans, but in spite of it. Or do you think having absolutely no preference towards your partner's genitals, the thing you're having the actual sex with, is a common thing?

I guess I'll never understand it, and it's not fair to expect you to keep explaining it when I'm just not getting it. It just seems that you have these two groups who are so perfect for each other, a group with a characteristic that's mostly considered unattracted or otherwise "bad" or whatever, and a group who, unlike the rest of the population, doesn't find that characteristic unattractive, and even finds it attractive. It seems like a match made in heaven. And at no point have I ever talked about dating someone just because of that thing (for instance, just because they're trans), but I don't see what's wrong with it being a requirement. We all have requirement in our partners, mine need to be human, male, over a certain age, nerdy, and a bunch more characteristics. I won't consider someone who doesn't first fit all these. I don't see how that's objectifying anyone, and I don't see why a sexual fetish, which is something you're attracted to, but never got to choose, is so different from an orientation.
I mean in a way, for a male, being interested in males is a fetish, since fetish just means "sexual interest out of the norm", and being interested in males is out of the norm for males. So why is it that different?

Anyway. It doesn't seem like we're able to understand each other. I'll try to ask my trans friends directly what their opinion on the matter is.

I would just like to add, I felt you were not very respectful when you said that trans women who act in porn are "selling their dignity". I don't think that porn is necessarily undignified, and there are a lot of powerful women involved in it, so I don't see it as something submissive either (not that it would be a bad thing either, actually). Once again, not something I would be interested in, but I don't think there is any shame in it, and it felt like you had strong feelings against them, like they were making other trans people you know "look bad" or something. I think it's find for them to be comfortable with their sexuality, and being an exhibitionist is fine when you do it legally.
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  #39  
Old 04-09-2014, 07:26 AM
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I understand that there is a balance; Vanquish said it best with the whole "quality" thing in an earlier post. I think the key thing is when I get the feeling that we wouldn't be together, or he wouldn't be interested, if I was Caucasian. Yes, my positive attributes are a bonus, but if it wasn't for my skin colour, we wouldn't be a couple.

I also acknowledge that not everyone minds being objectified in this way.

And you know, anyone, even a middle-classed Caucasian can be fetishized in this fashion. A black guy might fetishize white women. Your body type. Your hair colour.
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  #40  
Old 04-09-2014, 07:38 AM
Tonberry Tonberry is offline
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I did once meet a guy who only dated women with long hair. It would never have worked though: I had long hair at the time but I like switching haircuts too much, and I wouldn't have liked feeling forced to keep it long for someone else. It does seem weird to me to have such a strong preference for something that can be changed so easily that you don't date anyone who doesn't meet it. Maybe they would have in a few months.
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