Different Ways of Defining Sex: Advice?

[dingedheart]

caichan,

How old or young is the boy? What are your ages? When you say his head kind of exploded at the sight of condoms you mean he freaked out in a negative way?

[BrigidsDaughter]

A hard cap is an absolute. Say we get done with game at 9, we don't mind if people want to stick around until 11-11:30, but our hard carp - the absolute latest we want company sticking around to is midnight. Because our gaming friends don't (and can't) know about our relationship beyond cuddle buddies, it was important to establish a hard cap of you guys absolutely HAVE to go home by midnight so we can get Wendigo home (we pick him up and take him home most of the time) and we can get to bed at a decent time. Basically, we have a hard cap of time our friends can stay so that we can fool around or have sex after everyone leaves and still get Wendigo home by 3:30 am.

[nycindie]

Never heard the term "hard cap" but it sounds the same as "hard stop," a term I use.

[redpepper]

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showt...t=masturbation

The thread mentioned above

[SourGirl]

I didn`t know what 'hard capping' was either.

Learn something new everyday !

I think most people`s definitions are based on experiences, rather then what they`ve been taught. Even if you are taught one thing, but experience told you another, then you have both your definition and your working theory.
So each experience a person has, when the body/brain sends that 'omg' signal that a change is occuring,and they realize it`s becoming actual sex..... that tends to implant in the brain, and become the standard people measure by.

When we connect with someone physically, there are all kinds of things that people naturally have to compromise on. I think sex can be a very good measurement on how much people willingly compromise, adjust, exhibit patience, and learn each other. What happens there, will bleed over elsewhere. Both good and bad.

[AutumnalTone]

Honestly, "fooling around" isn't sex to me either. Touching, kissing, hand jobs, and dry humping are just not sex in my head or my heart. ... But don't feel that you need to educate your boy out of his beliefs. They aren't necessarily wrong. You just need to be considerate of his definitions as well as your own.

This. If I were in his place and that's all that had happened, I'd say we hadn't had sex. If that were to continue for any length of time, I'd also conclude that there wasn't any real interest and walk on.

So I think his definitions are just fine for him and he doesn't need to be "educated" to change them.

[opalescent]

Originally Posted by rory

Even though I'm all for everybody defining sex for themselves, this is sort of an emotional topic for me. I guess I'm fine with any definition as long as it comes from questioning your internalised beliefs and seeing how you really feel about it. What I'm not fine with is that often anything besides man-woman intercourse is labeled non-sex and less than.

This also drives me crazy. Man-woman intercourse is not the only sex even though many people have that in their heads as the 'default'. Everyone should question, think about and be able to talk about their definitions.

Originally Posted by caichan

So, when we added The Boy, it occurred to me that he probably didn't have the same definitions of sex floating around in his head. This is not surprising. He was joining a long-established F-F couple who had previously had a fully open BDSM quad with a het couple; he was raised fundamentalist Christian. We planned ahead for this. We talked about how each of us define sex. We've been moving at a glacial pace, letting him take as much time as he needs to absorb each step (and, as is expected, the emotional steps have previously been much more complicated than the sexual ones). Mostly, we make out and (as much as I hate the term) dry hump.

Then, he got brave and mischevious enough to explore the lovely and I's toy box, and discovered that I'd bought condoms as a "just in case," and his head kind of exploded.

Apparently, to him this is all fooling around. To me, since we are in an incredibly intimate position, frequently wearing nothing more than underthings, and I'm having orgasms, that counts as sex. We'd actually discussed that. Using those exact words. But he didn't think of it as sex until he realized that I was serious enough to buy condoms.

I guess I'm just wondering if anyone else has had the experience of re-educating a partner who has a culturally ingrained view of sex that you left behind so long ago that you've mostly forgotten it. Also, I probably just need some hugs, because I love the boy like crazy, but he's driving me crazier than I already am at this speed.

I don't know if you need to 'educate' him. But I would be concerned about how his ideas of sex impact his perceptions of you, the F-F couple. Does he see your F-F relationship as just 'fooling around'? Because by his definition, two women literally cannot have sex. Sex requires a actual live penis attached to a actual live man. It seems that he may - perhaps unconsciously - not give full weight or respect to a F-F relationship. I would be concerned about this possibility if I were in your shoes. Note, I am not saying this is true of everyone who holds this concept of what is sex. People hold contradictory ideas in their heads all the time. However, it is the logical outcome of that definition. And it makes gay sex (TWO penises attached to TWO live actual men) even more disturbing.

Originally Posted by AutumnalTone

If I were in his place and that's all that had happened, I'd say we hadn't had sex. If that were to continue for any length of time, I'd also conclude that there wasn't any real interest and walk on.

So I think his definitions are just fine for him and he doesn't need to be "educated" to change them.

I agree with AT that educating him is not necessary. Just be yourselves and talk to him, if he wants, about what you think sex is. Basically continue doing what you were doing - just more of it. Hopefully that will be enough to make him evaluate his own ideas. Or not. But that is not under your control. He's the one who has to do the thinking - and he may not, or decide his definitions are just fine. You're going to have be patient, and ultimately you will have to decide if you want to put up with his process (or lack thereof from your point of view).

But I have to circle back to sex=PIV intercourse issue. If it leads (or might lead) to orgasm - either for me or for my partner or both, then it is sex. So touching, kissing, hand jobs, blow jobs, masturbation (mutual or solo), PIV intercourse, bondage, dirty talk, spanking, hair pulling, stroking, sucking, finger fucking - all and more = sex.

I do realize that not all sex results in orgasm. (Although, honestly, I really don't get non-orgasm focused sex but that's just me. I tend to be goal-oriented.) But if that was the goal - to bring pleasure - then it's still sex and something just went a bit awry.

[AnnabelMore]

Originally Posted by opalescent

And it makes gay sex (TWO penises attached to TWO live actual men) even more disturbing.

*gasp* You're right! It's... it's... double-sex!!! How unseemly.

Thinking about my personal, internal definition of sex... when I think of sex, I think of sensual, nude exploration of one another's bodies. If undergarments were still on, as the OP describes, I imagine I too might not be sure if I thought of it as "sex" or "fooling around".

[SchrodingersCat]

Something about the notion of "re-educating a partner" sits wrong with me.

Perhaps it's because I grew up in a very open family, where I never felt like my opinions were bad, and I was allowed to come up with my own views of the world... but if someone were to try and "re-educate" me on sex, I would feel offended. Somehow, that makes it sound like my views are "wrong."

What does and does not constitute sex is as much a personal issue as cultural. Something that feels very intimate and sexual to one person may be completely boring and pointless to another. Does that mean one of those people is wrong? How can you be wrong about what your body says feels good?

It depends on how you feel when you do those acts. Do they feel like "just having fun" or do they feel like "being intimate?" Do you have the same reaction when you do those things with anyone or just certain people?

When I say the word "sex" I'm usually using shorthand for coitus. That's not to devalue the ways that other people get intimate, and that's probably because I don't put "sex" up on a pedestal. So what if two lesbians can't have coitus? Many times that I've had it, I've been unimpressed. They really aren't missing much.

Everything else, I put specific qualifiers: anal sex, oral sex (cunnilingus and fellatio), fisting, fingering, humping, spanking.... These things can all be "sexual" if they turn you on. They're just not what I refer to when I use the short form "sex."

I'm not into humping or making out. I get bored. So to me, those are not sex, because sex is not boring! This is not because I was culturally stunted. On the contrary, I was raised by a couple of hippies, free from influence of the Christian church, with my own copy of "Our Bodies, Our Selves" from the time I was 8.

And as much as I enjoy the feeling of an appropriate penis in my vagina, I equally enjoy many other activities such as cuddling up and falling asleep spooning and cunnilingus and manual g-spot stimulation and.....

Edit: I can see the possibility of confusion, though, so I'm thinking I will quit using the word "sex" altogether, except when talking about whether a baby chicken is a boy chick or a girl chick. Coitus, here I come!

[Magdlyn]

Originally Posted by SchrodingersCat

Something about the notion of "re-educating a partner" sits wrong with me.

Perhaps it's because I grew up in a very open family, where I never felt like my opinions were bad, and I was allowed to come up with my own views of the world...

That's really cool, Cat. You're a lucky gril!

but if someone were to try and "re-educate" me on sex, I would feel offended. Somehow, that makes it sound like my views are "wrong."

Dunno what happened to the OP, but maybe she didnt really mean "re-educate," but just share views and get more on the same page.

When I say the word "sex" I'm usually using shorthand for coitus. That's not to devalue the ways that other people get intimate, and that's probably because I don't put "sex" up on a pedestal. So what if two lesbians can't have coitus?

Well, they can! That's what strapons are for!

Many times that I've had it, I've been unimpressed. They really aren't missing much.

God, I love a penis or toy in my vagina. Fingers are great, muff diving is lovely, but good slamming jamming fucking really gets me off. I miss it a lot when I don't get some for a while...

Everything else, I put specific qualifiers: anal sex, oral sex (cunnilingus and fellatio), fisting, fingering, humping, spanking.... These things can all be "sexual" if they turn you on. They're just not what I refer to when I use the short form "sex."

I totally respect that view, but to me, any kind of genital arousal and orgasm producing activity is sex, or at least "sexy time."

I'm not into humping or making out. I get bored.

Ahhh, I love a good makeout session. I think sometimes couples that are used to just fucking don't make out enough. It's romantic.

Edit: I can see the possibility of confusion, though, so I'm thinking I will quit using the word "sex" altogether, except when talking about whether a baby chicken is a boy chick or a girl chick.

But what if one of those chicks was transgender?