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  #61  
Old 12-03-2009, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DrunkenPorcupine View Post
Every person has a different set of values. I can understand why someone would value their children more than their other stuff, but I think it's sort of pompous arrogance to assume that children MUST be the center of someone's existence.
Well I have to agree that it would be particularly silly (in my mind) if someone who had no kids and wasn't really involved seriously in the lives of of children made the idea of kids the center of their existence.... well and a waste of time too.

For me-they are certainly the most important part of my life-until they are grown-as they had no choice in being in my life and I need to ensure that my decisions don't damage them if at all possible.

My sister has no children-but she's helped in the raising and day to day care of mine, so she would also say that they are the most important thing in her life for the same reason.

However-I have friends who come and go and don't have kids. They only make the kids a priority when the kids are around them, because again-they are innocent (the kids) and dependent. But when they are not around-they have other things that are their priority and being around FOR the kids isn't a priority either.

I get what you are saying. I look forward to the day all mine are grown and I can spend time with them on my schedule around my dreams and desires. But for now-it's all about them.
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  #62  
Old 12-03-2009, 10:05 PM
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The thing is, even if she's not saying it, and even if it's prefaced with "in my opinion", she is still implying it. Her website is giving a great example of saying something that marginalizes people intentionally or unintentionally. Sure she starts with the phrase "to me" , but later goes on to say that "poly partners want X" as if this is indeed the case for being a poly partner.

If she said "this is how I define the poly people in my life" and left it at that, then that would be fine. But she went on to say something to the effect of "Poly people want x, so I define my poly relationships as having x" It completely invalidates all the poly people who want a-w and y+z.

And sure, it's just her opinion, but that is an opinion I would challenge for those very reasons.

And it's also a great example of how she is entitled to have that opinion but is not entitled to have that opinion unchallenged.

Just maybe she's not educated to a point of comprehending that her words could be interpretted that way and it's not that she is trying to imply that at all-but that she doesn't know how to say what she means?

I think that is a common issue around here.

I think Ygirl actually commented on what the language is called that works better. But even though I am educated and have worked hard to learn how to properly communicate my thoughts, feelings, needs, desires, opinions in such a way as to ensure the other person knows I'm not presuming anything about anyone else-I had never heard of it before she mentioned it.

I am all for trying to help people understand a better way to communicate (thus why Maca and I are doing communication counseling together as he struggles with this) but assuming that they mean the worst possible thing when they speak isn't going to help clear up the confusion.

Assuming the worst of anyone's meaning only breaks down communication and relationships. If we really want to improve it we need to consider all the possible meanings and seek to find the true one based on the information we have and that we can gain.

I tend to think that it's better to presume someone INTENDS the better meaning and help them find a way to better express it
then to presume they intend the more negative meaning and tell them why they are full of shit.
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  #63  
Old 12-03-2009, 10:07 PM
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No, not really. I apolgize if it comes across that way. I tend to be fairly blunt and to the point in my writing ... it's not meant personally.

No offense, just a discussion.
No problem, just checking. So much negativity on the board right now. I don't wish to contribute to making anyone feel judged or unwelcomed.

I want to be sure that if I am misunderstood-I clarify myself asap.

Thanks for sharing in the discussion.
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  #64  
Old 12-03-2009, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SeventhCrow View Post
It was a response to DrunkenPorcupine's post. I keep forgetting that not everybody uses the hybrid or threaded display to see what post responds to what other post. If I don't quote the post I respond to, my posts can appear to be apropos of nothing. Sorry!
Giggle-I got told that my first day or two here and didn't know what they were talking about. I don't use the hybrid or threaded display, but I hadn't figured out how to quote either.
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  #65  
Old 12-03-2009, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
Although I have never engaged in swinging as a practice I have engaged in random play that certainly was without a desire for closer emotional connection.

"To me, the distinction between swinging and polyamory is a depth of emotional involvement in each other's lives. Swinging partners, to me, would seem to have a greater emotional distance from their partners, and prefer to keep it that way, while Poly partners want to grow closer in their relationships with others"

This part of her statement sums my own interpretation of swinging vs Poly pretty accurately.

Leaving it there would suffice for me and I might even be comfortable using it to explain the differences between poly and swinging to friends who are new to the concept of polyamory. If I were to use the word polyamory that is. I prefer to simply explaining the dynamic. That leaves little room for interpretation or Google confusion
Yeah-really I'm coming to think that I don't care to identify as poly anymore then anything else. So often if we identify as anything people use their interpretation of that thing to define us-and my experience is that it's rarely correct. I'd prefer to not identify and take the extra time to really share who and what I am with someone.....
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  #66  
Old 12-03-2009, 10:15 PM
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I think perhaps the example she uses is being taken too literally.

As Poly, and a Swinger, I am very aware of the difference between them. And her example truely sums it up for me. Not because my children are the center point of my poly life though. It's merely an example.

The way I interpreted her example, it could have been applied to anything. When I engage in a poly relationship, that partner has some interest, if only informational, in my life. From what I do for a living, where I work, what my hobbies are, what some of my favorite foods/drinks/colors/etc are.

When I engage in a swinging situation I don't feel the need to share any of the above information with the person I'm with. They don't need to know any of it. If employment, for example, comes up, it is kept to vague answers like "I'm in IT" which really could mean anything They don't even get to know my surname... and honestly, a week down the line I will most likely have forgotten their name.
Thanks for piping up. I saw your post on the other thread about doing poly and swinging and was very interested in hearing your thoughts here. I took her to be giving an example too.

I don't swing but as I said-have friends who do and like you said-their "swinger acquaintances" are simply not as involved or interested in any part of their lives as their FRIENDS or poly-relationships.
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  #67  
Old 12-03-2009, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I tend to think that it's better to presume someone INTENDS the better meaning and help them find a way to better express it
then to presume they intend the more negative meaning and tell them why they are full of shit.
I agree, however, it's been my experience when you try to make a person aware of the unintended consequences of saying such things, it is often interpreted as an attack. I think assuming good intent needs to happen on both sides.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I agree, however, it's been my experience when you try to make a person aware of the unintended consequences of saying such things, it is often interpreted as an attack. I think assuming good intent needs to happen on both sides.
I don't disagree-but I think that it's important for everyone to remember that anytime you are trying to teach someone something that they haven't been asked to be taught-you are already crossing a "boundary" into their personal space and their security-which puts the obligation on you to quiet their POTENTIAL fears and concerns first.

On the other hand if someone says "hey I want to understand this" and then you answer-then THEY need to realize that they have asked you to enter their personal space and impact their security by sharing information that is potentially contradictory to what they already believe.

Each person needs to be aware before they take the first step as to which position they are in, and if you are the one taking the first step and you haven't yet taken the other persons feelings into consideration and ensured that they know you want to invade their personal comfort zone-they haven't been given the chance to allow you in without being defensive and in fact haven't even been given the chance to prepare themselves to not be defensive...
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  #69  
Old 12-03-2009, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LovingRadiance View Post
I don't disagree-but I think that it's important for everyone to remember that anytime you are trying to teach someone something that they haven't been asked to be taught-you are already crossing a "boundary" into their personal space and their security-which puts the obligation on you to quiet their POTENTIAL fears and concerns first.

On the other hand if someone says "hey I want to understand this" and then you answer-then THEY need to realize that they have asked you to enter their personal space and impact their security by sharing information that is potentially contradictory to what they already believe.
I agree. On an online forum, people make statements and arguments that others haven't asked to hear all the time. When a person makes a statement, the very act of posting it subjects that statement to scrutiny, whether they've been asked to be taught about that scrutiny or not.

In person, the dynamic is entirely different.


Quote:
Each person needs to be aware before they take the first step as to which position they are in, and if you are the one taking the first step and you haven't yet taken the other persons feelings into consideration and ensured that they know you want to invade their personal comfort zone-they haven't been given the chance to allow you in[ without being defensive and in fact haven't even been given the chance to prepare themselves to not be defensive...
The trouble is, a personal comfort zone is an entirely subjective thing. In person, this is something that can be gauged with a certain amount of skill, and something I do often in my trainings.

However, I don't believe that applies online in an open public forum. If we were to take this forum and turn it into a "safe space", that would require quite a few things. It would require that every member agree to a much more detailed covenant about what this forum is for and why people are here. It would also require a set of guidelines built by and agreed to by the whole community. We don't have that on this forum. It is a public space for anyone to post. Now of course relationships form in their own ways on such forums, but since the main connection is what is typed onto a webpage, each person has to take responsibility for their own comfort zone.

That's not to say that people shouldn't take other people's feelings into consideration when posting, that doesn't change that people will still read things differently and take things on personally when it may not be necessary to do so. And the nature of the communication medium makes it difficult to differentiate such things when there is no personal frame of reference.

The best advice I ever got about posting on open online forums (that are not intentional communities or agreed safe spaces) is to not take anything personally rather than try to justify reasons for taking it personally. 98% of the time, it was never intended personally, and in those few cases where it might have been intended personally, does it really matter that much?

Last edited by Ceoli; 12-03-2009 at 11:33 PM.
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  #70  
Old 12-04-2009, 03:01 AM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I would just substitute the word "people" for "relationships" since people could partake of both practices should they want to.
That's a good distinction, I think. I often say I do poly. Even when I say I am poly, what I intend to communicate is that I do poly, in that I engage in multiple loving, romantic relationships.
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