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  #31  
Old 10-24-2011, 02:38 PM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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That's great that he finally told her. And OF COURSE it was the lie that was the worst part. Finding out someone you love and trusted has been abusing that trust is devastating, and makes you see them in a different light forever, even if you go through the healing and mending.

Having someone tell you something that they are afraid of (i.e. being poly), and being vulnerable knowing you may not accept them, but being honest anyway-- that is an awesome feeling, builds trust and makes relationships stronger-- EVEN if the information is not something you would want to hear.

I'm glad he's learned this lesson.

I'm curious though-- you say she's told all of her friends... are you sure she's done that, or maybe she's gone to a friend or two for support, seeing as she just found out that her BF was lying to her and having another relationship (and another CHILD with that relationship) without telling her? She may just need somebody to vent to and get support from.

And in the end the people who think he's wierd for being poly, or treat him differently, aren't people he wants to be friends with anyway. Maybe this will weed out the real friends from the acquaintances, which in the end is usually a very very good thing.
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  #32  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:07 PM
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I wrote a post and I see it hasn't gone through, so I am writing it again.
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This man is not poly if you ask me, and nor are you if you willingly entered into this situation with him. Maybe in orientation, but not in lifestyle. This is cheating, hands down. Its very black and white to me; non-monogamy without consent, knowledge, honest and open communication in a relationship is cheating... Non-monogamy that is responsible and considerate with ethics such as empathy, integrity etc. is poly.
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Originally Posted by Moonmama View Post
So instead of being JUDGEMENTAL AND OVERBEARING I created a safe place for him to move from his previously held belief about himself, which is that when he falls in love with a woman he always hurts her in the end because he loves many women, and they usually overlap. In his previous relationships he was denying his true feelings, what he has been told by society was wrong and bad (and apparently by you as well since instead of supporting a young person moving through this unfolding process, you condemn them and basically say they aren't welcome because their journey didnt start the same way that yours did!!!) Had I not had a relationship with him, he probably would have continued on the way he was going, which I also think is fine if thats what he chooses. Its not the path I would choose for myself, but my soul lessons are different than his.
I did not in any way judge this man or say that he is not poly because he started out in a different place from where I did. How do you know where I started out? Actually, I started out in a similar place. I owned everything I said as my opinion. This is a public forum. It is a space to express one's opinion. If you don't want to hear it, then don't write here about stuff you don't want people to see.

As far as I can see you could of achieved the same goals of helping him to see that it is okay to love many without cheating (physically and emotionally) and damaging the relationship he had. I believe he would of ended up in a similar place and there would not of been any damage done. I don't think you did create a safe place for him. It might of felt like that at the time.... "poor baby who is so misunderstood," but all I hear in your story is that you did nothing to promote his integrity and strength of character in facing her and his belief that he HAS TO be mono. To me, this was cheating, and to me, cheating is not poly in terms of a identity... one can be poly in theory and not in practice I think.

From what I have read, and in my opinion, you and he both created a whole lot of negativity in the form of guilt, shame, distrust, anger, resentment, disrespect, lying, taking away someone's feelings of belonging, security, being loved, cared about and of their feelings and journey being respected as their own. No amount of saying "its her problem" is going to make me think otherwise at this point in time. What is her problem now is to gain back that fragile trust that we all have at birth that is destroyed when people behave as you and he have. As far as I am concerned, you took that from her and it seems you have no remorse for that. Instead all I have heard is that she was wrong and you are right. So therefore she should pay?

Where is your empathy here? I thought you said you are empathetic? I see none for this woman. You said that things take time to unfold.... where was her time? Where was the respect for her process and journey?

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I am not attached to this or any relationship. I welcome the companionship of others on my journey, but I am very clear on where I am going. The ego that I am referring to in this way would be from a Buddhist or ascension context. I do not believe that I am the "story of me" that exists in third density. Therefor I have no need to attach "myself" to any particular outcome because there is no one to be attached. This is why I am not afraid of being hurt in this relationship, only helping create the transformation into truth and higher truths. Anyone can walk away from a cheater. That is obviously what you would do. OR you might point the finger and tell them not to do that again. However, if the pain of the hurt he felt and that he had caused others during past occurences didnt heal him of that, nor the judgement of others, perhaps the way to heal that is through love and the safe space to create a non judgemntal relationship and support to help him see what his higher truth was.
This is all very nice for you, but did you check in to see what she believes? If you are not interested in attachments based on your religion then that is great for you. But she is NOT YOU. Therefore I don't think it is fair to assume that she has the same goals and feels the same way. Nor is it okay to expect that she should.

Creating a safe space in my belief is not about fucking someone and telling them its okay because guess what, "you are poly." Loving cheaters occurs when I stand my ground that I am willing to talk about how I do things differently so as to not hurt others. That is not walking away and there is no judgment there. If you believe that to be true then I am sorry for that, but that is YOUR assumption of me based on nothing to do with me... again, I am stating my opinion, on a public forum.
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  #33  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:07 PM
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[COLOR="Blue"] She completely has a right to feel whatever comes up for her. However, she knew he wanted to date lots of other women and "fixed him up" enough to make him monogomous, pushing him into a box that made her feel like she could love him under those conditions. Here we have CONDITIONAL LOVE: I only love you if________ and _______. This is also accompanied by feelings of "There is only so much love to go around.......It is not the easiest thing to tell your mate that this is what you have discovered. Are they going to be mad? Probably! should you not have allowed yourself that relationship, even though the sudden realization made your soul excited about this new phase of your journey? Does that mean you no longer love your mate? Should you break up with them right away? Tell them first?
I don't think, from what you have said, that this woman was given the time to work through her belief around everyone should be and is monogamous. Instead she was pushed aside with an eye roll it seems. That feels really crappy when people do that. Its really hurtful. She seems to of been punished for her belief and what she wanted by his breaking trust and you helping him with that quite willingly.

Yes, I agree, she believed in conditional love. She only knew or only thought that love is scarce (as in the scarcity vs. abundance theory). Got it... but instead of all working together to educate her on different ways to have relationships, so that she could make an educated choice whether or not to be with this man, everyone went behind her back and she was left feeling like she was on the right path for her and that he was right along with her holding her hand in a monogamous relationship. It was all bullshit. Poor woman. That must of been a shock. One that would bring dismay and incredible pain. So decietful. (And that is also my opinion)

Its really too bad that he didn't rise above his fear with your help and reach out to her with compassion. She might of been willing to reach out also. I hope there is still a chance for that.

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Originally Posted by Moonmama View Post
this is an unfolding process, and I am not going to be the one to rip open the rosebud. These things take time. This has been a long time coming for him, this lesson on honesty in relationships.
This is where I read the time bit. You and he had time for his rosebud to open but not her? I don't see where he learned how to be honest in relationships with your help. It seems he is learning it now by trying radical honesty with her. From what I have learned, learning radical honesty from the place of having cheated is very difficult. Learning it from a place of having realized that the option is cheating is far easier. I would think that you added to his struggle here more than helped.

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Originally Posted by Moonmama View Post
Obviously we are coming from different places. The Ego is not something that I find healthy in MOST people, including yours, as you are so quick to label and judge people in comparison to the "story of you," your ego that you believe you are. I also strongly disagree with your ideas that things are static as nothing in life is unchanging except for the fact that it is always changing. I find it a turn off that you are so quick to judge and label and I am sorry that people are doing the same to you in your life. Your words are a mirror of your internal condition. That would only bother you if you were saying words that you wish were not reflective of yourself.
Geez, for someone who is so concerned about my judgment, you sure dish out gobs of your own judgment!

What I said was not static, if you would like to read it again.

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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Once a cheater gets away with lying and flaking out of communication they always do until they get caught. I dunno, maybe that's okay with you. I certainly would turn me off.
This is what I have noticed anyway (I should of mentioned that, my apologies for that one).

No one is doing anything to me in my life in terms of judging and labeling as far as I know (its not my business if they are really. At least I try and remember that). My internal condition is just fine thank you. I am not sure where you would assume that. I would wonder how your internal condition is and wonder about who is judging and labeling you? Or are you just assuming that also. Man! Its so hard to have a conversations with all the assuming and judging going on.... instead of assuming that, perhaps you should read what I say and consider the difference in relation to your own thinking. This to me is how I learn and grow anyway... I might not like what I hear, but it always adds a new perspective and makes me think differently in order to become a better me some how in the end. I reckon its their opinion... I can chose if it is mine.

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Have you had a child before? They teach you something about ego and how important it is to have one. Ego is natural and healthy I think, the quest is for me to balance my ego with empathy. Something this man is clueless of by the sound of it.
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Originally Posted by Moonmama View Post
I also trust my children's judgement on what is right for them. We have a parenting style that permits each soul to be honored in the choices that they make. To many that would seem incredibly permissive, but I see my role as a parent to be that of a loving guide,and also as a student, as my children have already taught me more about patience than I have learned anywhere else In my view, children come in as awakened souls in new physical bodies.
I think we are talking about the same thing here. Ego=soul. Maybe not the same words, but the ideas are the same it seems.

It seems you do have empathy. I gather that from what you say above. You have empathy that your children having their own path.... where was it with this woman? Where were your thoughts just before engaging in a relationship with him that would break the trust she had? To me that trust is the same as a child trusting its parent. I like to think of people that anyway, and treat them with this line of thought... Why? because I want to be treated that way.

Personally I think along these lines of self talk...(as a result of being a parent and working with people with cognitive and developmental disabilities... need a lot of patience in my job I tell ya!) "I like to see my place in the world around me as that of a loving guide on how I need to be treated. I will listen and learn from others on how they need to be treated also. I am a student of others. I have learned so much about patience from my children that I intend to practice it with everyone I meet because I believe that we are all awakened spirits in a new physical body... we each have our own path."
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Last edited by ImaginaryIllusion; 10-26-2011 at 11:47 PM.
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  #34  
Old 10-26-2011, 08:08 PM
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I find many of the ways people treat children to be demeaning, inlcuding the routine use of diapers without offering the child opportunities to use the potty right from birth. Again, a different view than many others, but it doesnt make it right or wrong, just different.
demeaning? Ya, I can see that kinda. If I think of it in terms of adult fetishes... sorry, that is totally taking it in another direction

Unfortunately not all of us are in a position to have alternatives. I have a friend that lives on a beach on one of the islands on the West coast of Canada. She told me that her kids never had a need for diapers and that she potty trained them from birth. It turned out that she really hadn't taught them to sit on a toilet to poo, but just wiped it off of their legs when they were done. Meh... each to their own. I live in a city and decided that the best course of action was to make my own diapers and hang them on our line to dry. The only line in the neighborhood it turned out. I eventually perfected the design and sold them at local stores. Now there are lots of places on line to get hand made diapers. Then there were none. I was quite proud of those things. I should of kept one to remind myself of those days.
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Last edited by redpepper; 10-26-2011 at 08:13 PM.
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  #35  
Old 10-26-2011, 09:33 PM
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Have you ever been cheated on in the way he is? Have you deeply loved and cared for someone and had them destroy your trust of anyone because you learned that everything you knew was a lie? I suggest you take a look at some of the threads found under the tag "cheating" in the search engine too. It might help to find some empathy for this woman. No one deserves to be treated with so much disrespect. I don't care what she has done or who she is. Everyone deserves honesty and consideration. Without those basic things there is no love in the world and no hope of anyone ever healing from the damage we cause each other. I suggest that making that your spiritual goal is more healthy rather than the "rising above your ego" goal.
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I have indeed been cheated on and that was part of the journey to discover the "who" the felt hurt, and what it was that hurt me. I discovered through buddhist meditation practices and specifically tonglen, the practice of connecting to the suffering of the collective consciousness, and breathing it in, transforming it to love and exhaling it. There is nothing that having trust can make secure for you, not even in marriage. You can trust someone but I would rather love someone without condition than have to "trust" them. Trust is a promise. Promises only work until the day that the souls who made the promise undergoes change, which is ALWAYS going to happen. Nothing is changeless, and I am happy to release my "need" for trust. When you release needs you have a feeling of freefalling, there is no secure ground, but THAT IS THE TRUE REALITY <3 ITs not a bad thing, its beautiful. From this void we can create fresh in every moment.
This is not what I know of Tonglen. It's not about ADDING suffering, but taking it in and breathing out love. What you are saying here is totally confusing to me What does trust have to do with it at all?

"Trust is a promise" you say. hmmmm. Its only a promise if someone promises to do something. From my experience people trust what people say when there is not reason not to. Simple as that. By this man not communicating and leading her to believe that she is in a monogamous relationship with her and that you are just a friend, he made himself out to be trustworthy. At least that is what she thought. Now he is saying he and you lied and that he is not trustworthy and broke a promise? He didn't promise anything. She was acting out of her human nature to trust those she loves, because we were all like that from the moment we were born.

No, there is no security in trust. But the world is a very lonely place without it. Its a huge risk sometimes. Its also a huge complement and act of faith when someone trusts us. What a huge gift from others. Why not allow them to give us the gift of trust by being trustworthy.

Trust is what we are born with... as I have said before. Would you say that it is our job to remove that from our children because they should never trust anyone's promise to love them and care for them when they need that? At some point we all have to trust because we need each other... at least most of us do I think. Its a basic need.... this being from a scientific sense, not from a spiritual sense.
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  #36  
Old 10-26-2011, 09:33 PM
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Again, I am not saying in any way that I was desiring to create the experience of lying to her, I was opposed to that but ultimately it was his relationship. I am not here to make decisions for him.
No, you aren't, but you chose to be involved.

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I do wonder if you truly believe that this pattern of his would have healed by giving him the ultimatum as was suggested
Where was there an ultimatum? What was it? What was suggested I believe was that you decided for yourself to involve yourself with him on the level that you did. There was no ultimatum as far as I can see... just decision making. To do or not to do. You all made a decision. I don't remember you saying that there was any talk of "dump the girlfriend or you aren't going to get in my pants because I don't date cheaters" Or did I miss something?

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(which would not work on my end as I do not care to put those types of limitations on relationships! So therefor I would have had to act in untruth. Also, for both him and I and my husband, to not explore our relationship would have been lying to ourselves.
As far as I can see you acted in "untruth" anyway... you lied to her. I don't think you weren't lying to yourself, you knew how you felt about him. You both did. That isn't lying as far as I can tell. From what I have read about your story, you chose this path for your "self" only.

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Betrayal of the self is the highest betrayal of all. We are all human and everyone makes mistakes and that is how we learn.
How do these go together? You seem to be saying that you were justified because you would be betraying yourself, and then you are saying that you are human and make mistakes and that is how you learn. Which is it that you believe? That you were justified or that you made a mistake?

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I still do not see the situation as having healed the dishonesty pattern had it not unfolded the way it has. I am assuming you must be coming from a place of having healed all your human attributes as well, such as name calling and judging and condemming others for not doing things as you would have done them. Without these basic considerations there is no hope of healing the damage we have done to eachother
why the wink? What basic considerations went without and lead to damage and lack of healing for all? Are you talking about yourself here? don't get that bit.

Anyway... Ya, the situation is not healed from what I understand. To me it seems that the dishonesty pattern is not only continued, but is now brought to this woman's life also. She now also must wear that heavy veil of pain that comes from trusting and finding out that everything she knows is a lie and that people have been dishonest.

I have not healed all my human attributes yes, you have assumed that. Again, I see no name calling in what I have said, nor do I read any purposeful judgment, and I don't see any condemning either.... I am just a person who has lived 42 years and has experienced some shit. I have also been here for almost three years and have read a lot and responded to a lot of threads on cheating and poly.... I invited you to read other threads I believe, didn't I? I have an opinion grounded in much reading and experience and while it changes occasionally and is a work in process, I am not afraid to express it. How people take it is how they take it. I do my best to speak with as much empathy as I can because I know what it is like to be a cheater. Take it or leave it, but as you are on a public forum I have done what people do on public forums.... written what I believe (I made sure I said that lots in order to make sure you are aware of that about me).

I dunno, maybe I am too giving, but I tend to put people before myself if I think that the situation would be better off as a whole. In the end I find that it comes around that I am rewarded for that in terms of the pleasure and pride I have in doing something for someone else and from doing what I consider the right thing by others. I work and react to situations in terms of the greater good for all, how all of who I am involved with will learn and grow from the experience, including my self. Sure, its fucking hard to keep my hands off people I am attracted to, but looking at the situation holistically and thinking of what "could be" usually means I am able to direct that into something within myself that is more about everyone, rather than myself because I believe that if everyone benefits, I benefit.

From what I gather in what you write you seem to be going from a place of empathy and actually owning up to the possibility that what you participated in was hurtful and then you go back to yourself and how it would of hurt you. I'm sorry this is painful in some way and that it was painful for you right from the beginning. I know what its like to find oneself at the cross road of a decision and go down a path that leads to where you are. I also know what it is like to go down the path of integrity and all the pain that involves. None of it is easy, but I have found that in the long run, being in a place where I can proudly say that I had everyone's best intention and that everyone around me is now pain free as a result of my actions makes me feel on top of the world. People trust me, I am trustworthy. I wouldn't give that up for anything now. I am not saying you should be like me. But as one human to another, I am saying there are other ways and expressing an alternative to the situation that unfolded around you.

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In resolution to all this, after having a loving and supportive conversation in which we discussed his biggest fears regarding all this was actually a fear of being outed as poly, and being called a weirdo or other lovely names as humans can be so quick to do, he finally found the resolution to share the situation.

Obviously there was a LOT of anger the first day but they have moved into the second day and now the she wishes he had told her sooner, that it was just the lie of it that really bothers her. He says this was the hardest lesson he has ever had. He feels now that he was being weak before, and that is was way worse in his mind. She has gone and told all their friends and he is starting to deal with that now they are thinking he is a freak, but has decided to try radical honesty as a new policy. I am grateful to have shared this journey with him and wonder what the future may hold as you never know. There could be a new woman in my life

I would like to thank the few of you who didnt jump up in judgment for holding the space, and I would also like to thank those of you who were very harsh. I find teachers everywhere.

Namaste <3
I think I qualify as both so I am not going to say "you are welcome"

I hope she is able to trust again and that he remains strong. There is always a chance that there is a turn around. He is more than welcome to come here and get some support for that.
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  #37  
Old 10-27-2011, 12:26 PM
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Holy serial posting, RedPepper!
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  #38  
Old 10-27-2011, 06:01 PM
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If he's willing to do that, what might he be lying to the two of you about?
Annabel hit the nail on the head. It could be he does not understand poly, or he is still trying to figure out how it fits him. Either way you are in a relationship where everyone is not playing by the same rules. This is unfair to you and your husband and needs to be resolved in the short term.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:24 PM
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Holy serial posting, RedPepper!
Like that? I think I made forum history there... epic. I am off sick, I had four hours to kill on someone that likely doesn't give a shit what I say whatever; it helped me confirm where I am at. All good.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:24 PM
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Unhappy Similar situation

I think my answer is already embedded in this thread but I just want to re-iterate how much it sucks when someone that you really really like isn't ready to be honest about their poly relationships with one of their partners....


I guess the only option is to stop seeing that person... ? But I looove him... *sigh...*
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