Lies, lies and more lies.

[nycindie]

Haha, I have heard of the "turd in the punchbowl" or "turd in my ice cream" analogies.

Originally Posted by Podunk

I am too hurt right now to know and still clinging to what we had before this mess. The loss of that relationship as I knew it is still too painful and devastating to process. Even with the many things we can salvage and the unlimited possibilities of what we can build in the future, it is going to take some time to decide if I even want that. I want what we had and I can never have that with veganchick. Starting over with someone else would at least allow the hope of having something that special again.

No relationship ever stays the same. That would be stagnation. Even if this had not happened, your relationship will never be what it once was. We all change, grow, and evolve, and relationships are not meant to go backwards. So, ending the relationship because it can't be what it was is not totally realistic. It's unfortunate that this happened and you are feeling hurt by it, but it's on you now to forgive and let go of the hurt if you want to work on moving forward together and making it a new relationship. Really, that's what everyone needs to do in all love relationships -- create them anew every day, every moment. "Starting over" with someone else is certainly no guarantee of never being hurt again.

[veganchick]

Just because she has been giving him space to have this thread without posting yet doesn't mean VC hasn't read it nor that she hasn't yet "started" having empathy for him.

I have read this thread and I truly appreciate all of the feedback - including those who have told him to move on even if it's surely not what I want to read. It was important for me to give him his space to openly vent and communicate. I have not been avoiding the topic by any means- we have spoken at length for days. I am grateful for the support he has received. It's hard to imagine anything more tragic than feeling as if your best friend was never real. My heart breaks and yet my words, as a result of my actions, are shallow at best.

Originally Posted by Podunk

Veganchick has only read some of the most recent posts. She is still hesitant to start at the beginning, maybe still some avoidance of owning this situation. She has written pages of her own with the intention of sharing here. She is a a little more reserved than me. I think it's harder for her to just throw her thoughts and emotions out there and see what comes.

In talking to veganchick tonight, I think I finally found some words to help her understand how much she hurt me. For the first time, I saw some compassion in her eyes.

I have written a quite a bit and may end up posting. I fear that posting may look like a justification and the truth is that my actions can't really be justified. It was never OK to withhold information, lie or insult Podunk. I've begun the process of evaluating my reasons. While there is certainly no good reason why, I am learning about myself and exploring how I could allow myself to be so hurtful. If I do post, it will be for the purpose of advice and guidance. It may appear that I am incapable of love. How do my actions show that I love Podunk as much as I confess? I can't deny that I share the intensity he expresses for me. It's been a truly spiritual connection. I'm at a loss for how to begin to rebuild his trust.

[redpepper]

Hey, please re-read my "get a sense of humour" suggestion and think of it differently. It was not meant to be a jab at all. It was advice, that's it. If you are already seeing the humour in some of this situation you are in then that is excellent.

To me humour means deep honesty because I can bring stuff up in a joking way without it being all intense emotions. It is sometime the difference between going underground to get my needs met, stuffing emotions and releasing and asking for what I need. It adds some different kind of drama to the situation that is acceptable and warming rather than frightening and weirdly serious.... you might know what I mean if this is who you are already.

The comment I made about getting a sense of humour was simply to state that finding a way there is sometimes a huge release and a huge benefit to getting through to the other side of this stuff.... not "get a fucking life buddy, this situation is a joke..." Geesh.

[MichelleZed]

Welcome, Veganchick!

[River]

Veganchick,

Yes, Welcome! It takes courage to come in here and talk about this stuff in a public forum!

Most of us here are probably wondering why you felt the need (or desire, or...) to be dishonest about what happened. It seems honesty was the main thing Podunk wanted from you as he otherwise gave you so much room to explore, and enthusiastic support in your exploration.

I'd completely understand if you didn't want to get into those matters in the public forum.

Anyway, most folks here are pretty understanding and compassionate folks.

[Podunk]

Still exhausted, not sleeping more than 4-5 hours per night. I think I am finally finished with the circular arguments, inconsistent answers, denials... I wanted a peaceful day today, but veganchick had other plans. She found time for two more hours of this before she left for work. Thank goodness she is working this week, I can count on at least a few hours to myself.

She started the conversation by saying she needs money because she is moving out, and that she may be moving out of state. She says that she wants to leave to help me, because that's what I asked for in the heat of the moment during the first days of this disaster. Looks more to me like another easy out, another call for sympathy, poor woman had to leave her home blah blah blah. Apparently she hasn't even considered the devastating impact on our children, or just doesn't care. She still seems completely disconnected from the effects of her actions on others.

After pointing out again her continued denial and lack of ownership of the situation, we re-read some of her emails together. She is still holding on to her "nothing really happened" and "there was no emotional connection with Paul" ideas. Here is her email to Paul written the day after her return home. I first started out to "BOLD" some of the text, but really the whole thing is pretty bold for someone who claims not to have made a connection. She now claims she was lying to Paul. I don't believe that! It's a cop-out at best.

Definitely look forward to continuing to learn about you and am so happy to have you in my life. This week was really great and I enjoyed connecting with you on many levels. I totally love your sense of humor and watching you with *****. You have an amazing smile and great skills. Thanks for spending so much time teaching me your trades! We're both learning how to navigate the big world of polyamory. I'm excited to share that with you. Like I mentioned earlier, I had no expectations so it was all really special. I hope that my trying to make sure you had some space didn't come across as aloof. Probably the only thing that I missed was the opportunity to truly spend the night with you. Sharing that would have been really great....

Oh well, I suppose it is all irrelevant at this point. I have to pick up the pieces and move on, the only question is with or without veganchick. I think it will be more weeks or months before I can even begin to discern what is best.

[SNeacail]

Originally Posted by Podunk

She started the conversation by saying she needs money because she is moving out, and that she may be moving out of state.

With statements like this, you need to take immediate legal action to protect yourself and your relationship with your kids. Was she just going to pack up and abandon everyone or was she planning on emptying your bank accounts and taking your kids with her? Maybe it was just said in the heat of the moment, maybe it wasn't, but when it comes to your kids, don't leave anything to chance. These statements really piss me off when there are kids involved.

[Podunk]

Originally Posted by SNeacail

With statements like this, you need to take immediate legal action to protect yourself and your relationship with your kids. Was she just going to pack up and abandon everyone or was she planning on emptying your bank accounts and taking your kids with her? Maybe it was just said in the heat of the moment, maybe it wasn't, but when it comes to your kids, don't leave anything to chance. These statements really piss me off when there are kids involved.

Yeah, this hits home because I have had this happen to me before. The mother of my children left under the guise of visiting family and never came back. We don't have any children together biologically, so she can't take my two, but she can take the youngest who has spent most of her life with me. I have no legal standing there. Could rapidly become a very nasty situation! Thanks for pointing that out, it's easy to miss the obvious when you're emotionally and physically drained.

[Anneintherain]

Podunk, I really think you should ask for a couple of days of just...not talking to each other? Maybe communicate by email or notes for a bit, and not about this subject at all. Things seem to be tangled up so much and just getting worse.

In the quote you posted from the letter she'd written Paul, I see nothing but a happy note from a person who had a good time, might be in a little bit of NRE at having had a fun week where some new stuff happened. I don't see anything that smacks of making an amazing connection, sexual or romantic - just on a friendship level. I may be dead wrong, and I am sure there are other things she wrote that are making you feel hurt, but if you are getting a big sense of betrayal from that quote there, I want to say that you might be having problems with perspective. Picking apart her correspondence with him at this point is also not likely to do anything other than grow distance between you.

I almost posted yesterday a bit more about the situation in my earlier post - my husband was convinced that he still wanted to be married, that we were still perfect together. It took me to see it that we needed to part, and that we wanted different things, and to convince him that a divorce was what was best for both of us. I did not post this because you seemed so sure that you two were perfectly compatible, but the tune seems to have changed. Veganchick's actions seem to imply that you two aren't compatible anymore. But this might be because the home atmosphere is hostile, and you're both exhausted. I know that you don't know what you want right now, but I do urge you to take a step back and agree to just table the why when how for now, and on taking a few days to focus on the friendship you've grown over the last 6 years. Sleep in separate beds if tense stuff is happening at bedtime, if there is tension around being close and intimate like that. DON'T discuss the problems, and give yourself space to really think, to really let her think. If you want to spend time together in an intimate way, do it sitting in a room reading self help books about how to communicate. I don't know - each of you go buy a self help book that you think the other could benefit from THIS MOMENT and give it to the other to read.

I know from my experience that picking apart details looking for more justification at being angry and feeling betrayed ...does nothing but give you more justification for feeling angry and betrayed. That nets you nothing. It does not heal, it does not show love, it does not show understanding that humans make mistakes. You two might not end up working through this, but if so, don't have it be because you took an ugly path to reach the end, keep taking the road that has compassion and love and an effort to try to understand your partner, and you'll feel better at the end no matter what the outcome is.

[MichelleZed]

In Veganchick's defense, Podunk, you did come in here only a few short days ago saying that your marriage was completely over and that you were going to leave. It took you a few days to come around to the idea of trying to reconcile. It looks like Veganchick is now where you were a few days ago. Consider giving her a few days too before you accuse her of not caring about the children--which is a pretty serious thing to accuse anyone of.

Apparently, when you said you were going to leave, that was "in the heat of the moment" and doesn't count. But when she said she's going to leave, she doesn't care about the children.

Take a few deep breaths, and perhaps ask Veganchick about a few days of truce, as others have suggested.