Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > Life stories and blogs

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 10-08-2011, 11:35 AM
Podunk's Avatar
Podunk Podunk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
That wasn't a rant. Cindie obviously took a good 15 mins or more to compose a post out of a place of caring, point by point. She asked VC to post as well. Just trying to get both sides of a story!
Okay, not A rant, a bunch of rants added together. I'm sorry if the word I chose offends you or Cindie. The content comes across as accusatory, not as from a place of caring. Such is the deficiency of typed communication, we are left with only words to sort out the intention.

Regardless, I don't think I have misread in that Cindie primarily wants veganchick's version at this point. Maybe she wants more from me too, but I have already shared as many of my thoughts as I care to for now. Cindie, if your questions can't be answered from what I have already written, I am sorry but that is all I have to offer right now. See it as a cop-out if you like. Maybe veganchick can better answer your questions.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 10-08-2011, 12:29 PM
Casey Casey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 16
Default

When one is angry, it is often hard to see how a relationship can be recovered.
But, often it can. It takes a long time, and ALOT of work on both sides, but it is a possibility.

Shannon and I have safe sex rules. Hell, it is our only rule. But, I have discussed precisely what I define "safe sex" to be (and my definition does err on to the stricter side of things). Your safe sex rules do not seem to have such clarity, so should you guys choose to begin the healing process, you may wish to consider a more thorough discussion on what safe sex actually is.
It is also discussed with all other potential partners, and if they cannot abide by my level of strictness, they are probably not appropriate.

(I realize I have an overly tough line on this, but I was an AIDS and sexual health nurse, so have a little bit of paranoia!)
__________________
Building a life with Shannon... Both dating others on the side.
(And if they want to come join in the building, we are open to negotiation, and would probably welcome the spare hands )
~Actively Wooing Richenda~
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 10-08-2011, 02:05 PM
nycindie's Avatar
nycindie nycindie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 7,161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
Cindie, the only thing I can gather from your rant is that you are really very curious about veganchick's side of the story. That's cool with me. But seeing as you have already asked her directly for it. I'll leave that between you and her.

If you can't figure out where the lying was in this story, it is beyond me to explain it. Maybe you would have to understand just how close veganchick and I are and how we have communicated over six years. She is not unclear about the lies. Perhaps she will explain it to you in her own words.
Rant? Huh?? Why do you think I would spend the time and energy I did just to rant about something? I have better things to do. I don't see how you can even respond the way you did. I was offering another perspective simply as food for thought. Was just thinking about your post, came back, went through some of the things that I had thought about, and replied with some possibilities that I thought might be helpful for you to hear. Just to let you see that there are more than one way to look at things like this. Take it or leave it. I am serious about how I forget things when under pressure. MichelleZed made some suggestions about you that could be difficult for anyone to read, yet you thought them valuable; why dismiss mine so immediately?

I don't even know what questions you think I want answers to. I didn't ask you anything for any reason other than for you to answer it for yourself, for your own pondering. I don't need anymore from you. I was not accusing anyone, just wanted you to perhaps be able to see a different view, with a different color light on it. I can be totally off-base, I know that. There was nothing behind my post other than the spirit of helpfulness.

Maybe it was just all too much to find any more posts from anyone. You're probably exhausted. I don't know. But, okay, fine -- dismiss me. Do not, under any circumstances, see if there is one iota of value in anything I wrote. Whatever, I really don't give a shit.
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me. ~Bryan Ferry
"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein

Last edited by nycindie; 10-09-2011 at 01:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 10-08-2011, 02:54 PM
Carma's Avatar
Carma Carma is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 478
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
Just as all of the rest of it, the lies were simply offered up/volunteered!

I guess it's not unusual for veganchick. (and no this isn't a petty jab) She tends to see herself as the person she wants to be, rather than who she is. I won't judge that or pretend to understand the psychology of it. I think that is an aspect of veganchick's personality she is beginning to own. Hopefully, it will help her grow to love herself as much as I have loved her.
Wow, I live with someone like this, too.

It's so hard, to work around the image he tries so hard to portray. One tough part is, it IS pretty. I want so much for the shiny armor to be "real." Even he says, "I feel like a little boy of coal. The only way I feel comfortable in the world is to put on the shiny armor." I have spent 13 years trying to convince him that the boy of coal is the one who is lovable, not the slick perfect macho man he presents. I can understand him needing to present it to the outside world, I mean, naturally we all want to show the world our best selves. But he goes overboard, for one thing, and for another thing, he has to be real with SOMEONE. I thought that someone could be me.

I am starting to fear that he can't do it with me, after all. That he is incapable of being honest to the the level it will take to create a real marriage with me. I know, I am demanding. I call him on his shit, and if I were him, yeah, maybe I'd be tired of that. I can see why he'd be tempted to go off with a girl who is a little flighty, where he can easily fool her into thinking he's the perfect god he so wants to appear to be.

I want to love the imperfections, the REAL Sundance. But he is so convinced of his own unlovability. I am not sure I can get through. He can't trust that I will love the imperfect person underneath it all -- but that is so weird, because he knows how repulsed I am by his vanity sometimes! How often I have begged him to relax, how many times I have said, I like your hair messy sometimes; I don't care if you have 6-pack abs; I like when your clothes are rumpled (at least on the weekends!); I like when you get in the water and swim with the kids, instead of sitting on the side afraid to mess up your hair! I don't mind if we have to be frugal for awhile, to get caught up on our bills, so if you only tip the waitress 20%, that's ok. (Yes, he plays the rich, generous guy, even when we are flat out broke). It's ok to tell the kids, "No, I'm sorry, I just can't afford it right now," instead of pretending that you can, further perpetuating our debt. If you're not ok with me having sex with Butch, let's talk about it and see if we can work it through. You don't have to fake forgiveness or pretend acceptance. You don't have to be really perfect to enter my heart, you have to be perfectly real, and let me enter yours!

Eek, let me retract that ... leave perfection out of it altogether, because that is unattainable in our humanness. I would just like to see some ATTEMPTS -- where our hearts can meet in the middle. He is his most beautiful when he is humbled. But I don't want to be the one always humbling him! It's co-dependent, and it puts me in a dreadful position of playing god. I can get so self-righteous sometimes, I know I can be terrifying to him. (It's scary to be called out! Sundance has done it to me, so I know! But overall, in the end, I've been grateful. He cared enough to want the real me, and to dig deep through all my bullshit for her/me. It was tough love, even though yeah, sometimes I hated it and resented him for it!). I am not ALWAYS tough and horrible to him. I have tried being gentle and understanding, a soft place for him to land, an understanding and forgiving partner. But I can't participate/enable him in his denial. And I find it very hard to love an IMAGE. I can't discern between what's real and what's not. I'm confused, exhausted, and frustrated. Sadly, I think he is too.

I don't know if any of this is relevant to post here on your blog but I couldn't help sharing. Take what you like and leave the rest, right?
__________________
Formerly married to Sundance
Boyfriend -- Butch Cassidy
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 10-08-2011, 03:12 PM
Podunk's Avatar
Podunk Podunk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
There was nothing behind my post other than the spirit of helpfulness.
I'm sorry and will accept it as that then. As I said, it can be very difficult to read intentions in this format. I suppose that is especially true if it isn't something you want to hear. But it wasn't wasted, I have read it twice. I'll probably read it again in the future, when I'm not so exhausted. Maybe I'll find more in it at some point. It has at least led to some dialogue between me and veganchick. For that I can only be grateful to you.
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 10-08-2011, 03:19 PM
Podunk's Avatar
Podunk Podunk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
I don't know if any of this is relevant to post here on your blog but I couldn't help sharing. Take what you like and leave the rest, right?
Carma, your posts are relevant and helpful. I haven't responded directly because they leave me with more things to think about than things to say. I have read the last few pages of your blog as well. Feel free to type away!
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 10-08-2011, 03:32 PM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,634
Default

This guy came in your wife's mouth after first meeting and you aren't pissed!? Really?! Where are his boundaries with his loves? He cared so little for Veganchick and her life and loves that he did this? What does that say to his character. Where is this dude? I would like to know who he is so I can stay well away from him and his partners. He obviously cares nothing for anyone but him self. Damn that makes me mad. They should of stopped trying to get off day one! She gave everything and he gave nothing to this. As far as I see he used her and her starry eyed thoughts about his commune or whatever. I hope this was a lesson to have PERSPECTIVE and not jump in so fast to something that has a glossy cover. Substance is everything, this guy is filled with fluff. Gah I would be so angry! Ya, of course he sent a nice "you are awesome" letter back, she asked for nothing and gave everything and he didn't come! She gave her good health! The most prescious gift! How many other women has he cum in. So rude and self centered.

I don't think she should be bragging about how great she is at poly. Sorry Veganchick, anyone can go and meet some guy you just met for a week of sex and fun. Anyone can agree to that also; although its not common to be as generous with your boundaries as you were Podunk. If you get through this and Paul becomes a fixture on yoir life, then I think you can do some bragging. Sorry, I just don't see how this situation is braggable. Humbling? Yes. I think it would suit to be humble.
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 10-08-2011, 04:17 PM
Podunk's Avatar
Podunk Podunk is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 57
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
This guy came in your wife's mouth after first meeting and you aren't pissed!? Really?! Where are his boundaries with his loves? He cared so little for Veganchick and her life and loves that he did this? What does that say to his character. Where is this dude? I would like to know who he is so I can stay well away from him and his partners. He obviously cares nothing for anyone but him self. Damn that makes me mad. They should of stopped trying to get off day one! She gave everything and he gave nothing to this. As far as I see he used her and her starry eyed thoughts about his commune or whatever. I hope this was a lesson to have PERSPECTIVE and not jump in so fast to something that has a glossy cover. Substance is everything, this guy is filled with fluff. Gah I would be so angry! Ya, of course he sent a nice "you are awesome" letter back, she asked for nothing and gave everything and he didn't come! She gave her good health! The most prescious gift! How many other women has he cum in. So rude and self centered.
Thanks for the reply Redpepper. Maybe I am pissed? I don't know, the lies trumped all and I wasn't allowed to even process the sex.


Quote:
I don't think she should be bragging about how great she is at poly. Sorry Veganchick, anyone can go and meet some guy you just met for a week of sex and fun. Anyone can agree to that also; although its not common to be as generous with your boundaries as you were Podunk. If you get through this and Paul becomes a fixture on yoir life, then I think you can do some bragging. Sorry, I just don't see how this situation is braggable. Humbling? Yes. I think it would suit to be humble.
When we joined this forum, veganchick spent days reading your blog and Mono's. She has even mentioned that perhaps she thought she could just dive right in and be in that place. I guess condensing years of process in to a blog can make it look easy!? Anyway, I'm sure seeing your reply will be meaningful to her, as it is to me. And yes "humble" is what I was looking for. It is only today that I am beginning to see any signs of that!
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 10-08-2011, 06:00 PM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,634
Default

Good luck to P. It isn't easy at all! You two are just starting out and it seems you have just had your first learning experience (unless there were others).

I don't see how you can't come back from it but kicking the swinging attitude might be worth looking at. Swinging, in my experience, makes some people think every experience seem overly sexualized. It builds sexual confidence but is sometimes misplaced in some situations.

Poly is not about the sex. Some would argue that with me but whatever, I haven't experienced it as being about sex and I speak from what I personally know. Rushing into sexualized activity is fun and valid, but holding back, pacing, taking time to experience each moment and seeing what comes up seems to build on relationships first. The sex, when it comes, feels completely different as a result.

Learning curves; we all have 'em. I would suggest forgiving her, setting some boundaries, telling him and his loves they should get tested because there has been a break in the chain, wearing a condom and getting a sense of humour. You aren't going to die, but both of you have recognized you learned I imagine.
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog

Last edited by redpepper; 10-08-2011 at 06:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 10-09-2011, 12:02 AM
nycindie's Avatar
nycindie nycindie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 7,161
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
As I said, it can be very difficult to read intentions in this format. I suppose that is especially true if it isn't something you want to hear.
I think, also, that perhaps you read my post as trying to say that maybe VC didn't lie. I wasn't saying that. I guess a big part of what I wrote was simply to show how, under certain stressors, and when holding on to ideas about what we need, our hopes, etc., we can rationalize things in such a way that we don't really see clearly anymore, and then we make less than optimal choices, whether those are in what we say or what we do.

I am sure you both can repair this. You said several times that your marriage is over. But don't be so quick to give up. Couples have bounced back and become stronger and more loving after things like this and worse. I know a woman who was able to forgive her boyfriend who beat her and even they repaired their relationship into something wonderful, loving, and healthy. So, don't bail... yet. As River said earlier in the thread, true love is so precious that, if it is there between you, it's something to fight for. Another thing to look at is what you said in post #60, which is this idea that you saw VC becoming closer to your ideal and now she's something else. Expectations there, with a notable amount of condescension, and not much empathy toward her. I also agree with Redpepper about feeling angry toward Paul, who took advantage of your wife's wide-eyed hopefulness for his own advantage, AND perhaps you both letting go a bit of the swingerish mindset if and when you do begin to work toward developing additional relationships again.

I have nothing against casual sex, but if you want to have multiple relationships in your lives, focus on slowly building good, healthy, relationships first, and not so much on the sexual activities. Sure, have recreational sex if you want, but I would be much more mindful if you intend on using that as a way into developing real, heart-connected relationships. It's possible, but keep in mind that waving the "sex positive" flag, if there's no relationship to begin with, can do more damage if we forget to stop, look into someone eyes, and truly listen without an agenda, to see what's really there.
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me. ~Bryan Ferry
"Love is that condition in which another person's happiness is essential to your own." ~Robert Heinlein

Last edited by nycindie; 10-09-2011 at 01:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
abuse of power, anger, blame, boundaries, dishonesty, forgiveness

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:19 PM.