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  #51  
Old 10-07-2011, 10:54 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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I cannot tell you how much I relate to this blog. Heartwrenching.

My emotions keep flipping anger-compassion, betrayal-forgiveness, confusion-understanding, despair-hope.....etc.....

One minute I am sure my marriage is over; the next I think we'll live like roommates. But it's becoming less and less a feeling of hope, that we will ever live as a married couple again, that I will ever be able to feel trust in him again. I feel like his lies were so unnecessary. Maybe at first, I could understand his trepidation, but I have tried so hard to provide a safe and gentle way for him to communicate openly with me. He just can't seem to do it, completely. I am not sure I can continue to live with someone like that -- because obviously, not only do I not trust him, HE doesn't trust ME, either! He can't trust me enough to tell me the truth? Even now? And yes -- I was a cheater in the beginning, too. So I GET it! He offered me forgiveness, so of course I want to extend the same to him. Makes me wonder, however ----- did he REALLY "forgive" me? Or was he still feeling like, "Back when you had another man's dick in your mouth....." Maybe he never, ever was okay with poly, at all. In which case, it is perhaps better we go our separate ways. Maybe I hurt him beyond repair, and he is too afraid, or proud, to admit it to me. Maybe he is too proud to admit, he can never forgive what I did. Therefore, my forgiveness of him, is just more than he can bear.

There are deal-breakers in marriage. Maybe his was me loving another man. Maybe mine is him LYING.

Maybe Po and Vegan have broken their deal, too. Can we put it back together again? Do we even WANT to? I'm bewildered too, Po. Love the input you're getting here from the forum, btw. Not sure where I'd be right now if it weren't for these people.

Hope you're having fun with the kiddos, anyway.
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  #52  
Old 10-07-2011, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Would calling her a fucking liar be a cheap shot?? no ...that's factual ....so...then...

You think the key is finding sympathy for one another....wow... I think being told a version of this story (in a complete way) that would make logical sense and answer the questions on all the lies... that would be the key to moving forward leave the sympathy out or any other emotions ...just the facts ma'am
You're lovely.

Obviously Podunk needs to hear the whole story from his wife. But once he does get the truth--and I assume he will, or this whole point is moot--how do you go through the process of forgiving the other person and working through broken trust? That's where the sympathy comes in.
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  #53  
Old 10-08-2011, 01:48 AM
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Thanks everyone for continuing the discussion while I was away today. It was good for me to step away and enjoy a fun filled kidtacular day. I have read and appreciate everything written. I'm too exhausted to make any direct replies right now.

I think I may be almost ready to share this thread with veganchick. She is already aware it exists thanks to another forum member. It's okay, I was aware of course that was a possibility. I could have kept her identity completely anonymous if I wanted. Veganchick was at least respectful enough to leave me alone with my thread until I'm ready to share. She hasn't yet read it. She isn't sure if she wants to anyway, but I have a feeling curiosity will win in the end.

Oh well, house full of little girls. It's sleepover time. Maybe I can get some sleep tonight too.
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  #54  
Old 10-08-2011, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
Oh well, house full of little girls. It's sleepover time. Maybe I can get some sleep tonight too.
May you have a good night of peace and deep sleep / rest !
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  #55  
Old 10-08-2011, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Podunk View Post

Oh well, house full of little girls. It's sleepover time. Maybe I can get some sleep tonight too.
You have kids who sleep at sleepovers? Tell me all your secrets In all seriousness though I hope things settle for you soon and you can get some rest.
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  #56  
Old 10-08-2011, 04:35 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Okay, I just want to look again at a few things you stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
I was not aware at this time that sex was already a planned part of the visit. I assumed it would happen and was okay with that. But veganchick chose not to disclose this to me, reasons unknown. The lies and deception had already begun.

Veganchick inquired what our rules/boundaries would be . . . I said "none" but quickly qualified that with safe sex and honesty. Those were to be the only rules.
Hmm, first you portrayed yourself as totally open to sex happening: “I assumed it would happen and was okay with that.” So, if she knew you were okay with it, then maybe she made her plans to have sex, but simply felt she didn’t have to mention details to you because, well, you’re cool with it. Saying that she had “already begun” lying to you is a bit inconsistent with that. It doesn’t seem necessarily like “lies and deception” at this point of your story.

Okay, so she goes off knowing she has no boundaries except safe sex and being honest....

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Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
Apparently the sex started within hours of her arrival, so much for wrapping your head around something emotionally before diving right in.
Why the bitter tone when there was no rule/boundary about waiting? This is snarky of you.

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Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
Paul . . . could not maintain an erection . . safe sex . . . was abandoned for three days of full-on unprotected oral sex . . . veganchick now can't remember if Paul was wearing a condom when he came in her mouth, or if she swallowed his cum. This after already confessing to both versions? Hm, lies and deceit continuing even now?
What do you mean here that she confessed to both? When did she confess? You are telling us what happened at this three-day mark, and it’s a little confusing. Also, notice how you say the lies continue, but it doesn’t seem there was all this lying going on before this point.

Also -- are you sure that you and veganchick both share the same definition of “safe sex?” Because, many people have their own ideas of what is “safe” or “safer.” I have a feeling you two did discuss it in detail, but I’m just throwing it out there in case there’s a possibility of any ambiguity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
She told me that there wasn't any chemistry between her and Paul, that "nothing had happened" between them. The lies were really beginning to take shape even as the sex was over.
I can see how some fooling around with someone who couldn’t get it up could be considered “nothing.” Especially with a mellow, totally open, permissive, encouraging husband who’s pretty much okay with everything, as long as she’s safe – I might feel a bit of “why should I get uptight about anything that went so totally nowhere? It was nothing!” It could’ve been her disappointment talking more than anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
Finally this few days, turned to week, turned to 8 days trip was over.
Now why do you put it this way, as if she suddenly sprang staying longer on you while she was there? Earlier you wrote: “Plans quickly hatched for a return visit and grew from a few days to a weeklong stay.” Didn't she plan in advance to stay longer, with your knowledge? That’s what it sounds like, and so I don’t understand why you had to reiterate the length of time she was away as if that hurt you too. Again, a tad snarky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
Everything was perfect . . . except for the blatant and constant lies and lies to cover up lies . . . veganchick offered up once again that "nothing had happened" between her and Paul. I had not inquired and simply assumed that the woman I know so well hadn't gone a week on a commune with a lover and kept her pants on . . . it didn't take us past the no solo sex boundary. Oh, so many lies!
Okay, A LOT of this doesn’t make sense to me. She said nothing happened – and yet, you had not inquired. Then you assumed she lied (“I . . . simply assumed that the woman I know so well hadn't gone a week on a commune with a lover and kept her pants on.”) but then you’re disappointed because she hadn’t broken the “no solo sex” boundary – so there was another boundary and you vacillated between trusting and not trusting her before any real discussion took place. She may have sensed your distrust and that could’ve been one reason she felt flustered about telling you everything. Or it really did seem like no big deal to her as she was trying to process the rest of her trip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
Then veganchick let it slip that she had kissed Paul . . . certainly a lot more than "nothing" and greatly magnified by the earlier denial. It was big but not overwhelming and a relatively short discussion settled the matter.
You had no rules about kissing and left most everything pretty wide open, so what was there to “settle?” Why was kissing now something “big?” She actually hadn’t denied kissing him earlier, because[you said] you had never asked – correct? And it’s easy to think of kissing as “nothing” when you’re hoping to get fucked!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
. . . veganchick maintained that "nothing had happened" between her and Paul and the basically had no romantic interest in him. Meanwhile she was secretly discussing via email another possible trip to the commune. She was also telling Paul what a wonderful and meaningful time they had together and that she was looking forward to continuing where they left off. She now claims she was lying to him too during that period.
This is a bit odd, but perhaps Paul was initiating and wanting to pursue something and she didn’t know how to get out of it? Or she was afraid to admit to you having an interest in him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
Later that night veganchick and I would discuss me and Meghan, threesomes, foursomes and moresomes. Weren't we just one big happy poly family? The lies continued and another week passed.
What lies? It sounds like you all were just talking about possibilities for the future at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
. . . she assumed I knew about this touching when she confessed to making out. I assured I did not know and inquired if this was just touching or naked touching. The answer was that it was "sort of naked" touching but "not really". How is one sort of naked? Even as I asked that question, she stuck with the "sort of naked" story.

To make matters worse veganchick began belittling me calling me "stupid" and an "idiot" for believing her lies. Did I really think "nothing happened"? Yes, of course I did. I was shocked that nothing happened . . .
Well, there can be stages of undress, which could be called “sort of” naked. While I hope she wasn’t really belittling you, though it may have seemed that way, she was probably feeling on the defensive if your tone was accusatory. And isn't it possible that she was also shocked to learn that you thought there was no touching, kissing, or anything until she had to explicitly tell you? If you're projecting such a sexually liberal attitude, she might not know that you needed details about something that perhaps seemed inconsequential to her (I’m not addressing the did she swallow question yet).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
The . . . arguments and lies have all run together. This will be our fourth day of working through this . . . After intensive questioning . . . veganchick finally confessed to "some attempted" oral sex . . . I reluctantly began to offer more direct questions. The lies continued but at last it SEEMED that everything finally came out. There had been days of oral sex, both giving and receiving, but veganchick had not orgasmed and Paul couldn't get it up therefore "nothing had happened" . . . I began some very intense, focused direct questioning . . . "Semi-naked" became naked, one encounter became multiple days, Paul’s inability to perform became he came in my mouth and I swallowed his load, which by the way has now become "I don't remember".
I know this might sound weird, but when I feel put on the spot, my mind goes absolutely blank. It’s amazing, I forget facts that have been in my brain a long time. I’ve always thought it an odd phenomenon. This has happened to me for years, and I realized that it occurs when something is said that undermines my sense of security in what I know, or in my self-esteem, or I don’t want to look foolish. It especially happens if I feel like I'm being grilled and must go on the defensive. I go blank and doubt myself. I could be intimately familiar with the details of some information or event but, if intimidated, the only thoughts going through my brain are, “I don’t know anything... I forget... I’ll be wrong.” I later on kick myself for forgetting but it doesn’t come back completely until I verify it somehow -- I have learned that what really happens is I become frozen with fear. Perhaps she experiences something like that, too.

She may not even know why she went back and forth about it. I wonder, with you expressing how okay and eager you were with whatever she wanted (within your boundaries), that to then encounter disappointment in her lover, she must have then chose to focus on the experience of being in that community. She chalks the unsatisfying kissing and oral sex as “nothing,” maybe has her own definition of what is safe, and comes home to find you suspicious, waffling about what is acceptable, and finally grilling her again and again, when you are both upset about the misunderstandings. She feels even more confused, not trusted, and finds out that what she thought was okay with you wasn’t, and that what she thought was “nothing” was actually, to her heretofore rather open-minded husband, something serious.

Or, maybe everything happened because she wanted you to be a little jealous and “care more,” not be so eager and placating (I'm just taking a stab).
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Last edited by nycindie; 10-08-2011 at 05:41 AM.
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  #57  
Old 10-08-2011, 09:34 AM
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Cindie, the only thing I can gather from your rant is that you are really very curious about veganchick's side of the story. That's cool with me. But seeing as you have already asked her directly for it. I'll leave that between you and her.

If you can't figure out where the lying was in this story, it is beyond me to explain it. Maybe you would have to understand just how close veganchick and I are and how we have communicated over six years. She is not unclear about the lies. Perhaps she will explain it to you in her own words.
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  #58  
Old 10-08-2011, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
apparently he was mocked by Veganchick and Paul ....your right no one here.
Just to clarify, it is only veganchick who has acted this way. I don't have any ill feelings toward Paul. Sounds like all he got out of this was some unsatisfying sex and some drama he probably didn't need.
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  #59  
Old 10-08-2011, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Podunk View Post
Cindie, the only thing I can gather from your rant...
That wasn't a rant. Cindie obviously took a good 15 mins or more to compose a post out of a place of caring, point by point. She asked VC to post as well. Just trying to get both sides of a story!
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  #60  
Old 10-08-2011, 11:21 AM
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I got six hours of sleep tonight. Normally that little would border on traumatic, but after the past week it is actually enough to be a little refreshing.

Yesterday went mostly okay. At times it was hard for various reasons. The first is that I'm still fucking crazy about this woman! But every time I let a hint of that slip, veganchick's mood seems to change to a "great, now everything is okay and we can move on" vibe. That's just too much to take right now, as I still don't feel she has owned this whole disaster or shown any real remorse.

Unfortunately, that's when my own shortcomings shine through and I resort to re-wounding, petty jabs, whatever you want to call it. I'm working on this, part of me knows it will have to stop before we can rebuild. Part of me doesn't want to rebuild, so I'm stuck in this space for the moment. It's easy too as every little thing reminds me of the events of the past month, Paul's doppelganger walking down the street. A Google Earth display that randomly zooms in to the commune where all of this started. Even veganchick's choice of beer at dinner, Laguinata's - A Little Sumpin' Wild! Urgh!

Did I mention that I'm still wildly attracted to veganchick? On an intellectual and emotional level that has always been there. We met online and became really good friends long before I had any idea what she looked like. By the time we met, appearance didn't much matter. Don't get me wrong, veganchick was never bad to look at, just not someone I would have chosen out of a lineup. On a purely physical level, I am just crazy for dark hair, soft curves and big butts. Veganchick is blonde, small butt, a strong swimmer's body with broad shoulders and big boobs. I know that's one of the reasons being picked out by someone like Paul is so exciting to her.

Then something funny happened as veganchick approached her 30's. It has been like magic. Every day I find her more beautiful than the one before. I love every little thing about her, physically and mentally. Her skin has cleared up and has a beautiful healthy summer sun-kissed glow. She has let her hair grow long and free again. Her butt has even filled out a little. And I have always been attracted to women in their 30's and 40's, even as a teenager. So it is all working for me.

Then veganchick returned from her commune stay, more beautiful than ever. How did that happen? No, I'm not jealous because I think it had anything to do with Paul. It had more to do with the rest of her experience that week, and our experiences together in the weeks leading up to it. She was just glowing from the inside out!

Okay, trying to work on the empathy thing here as veganchick says I have none! I can see where a couple of days of bad sex started to feel in her mind like "nothing happened". That her needs weren't met on any level, even physically. That in the larger context of the life-altering adventures we have been on since August, it just wasn't anything at all. As some of you have pointed, out in the context of your own lives, what happened between veganchick and Paul would indeed qualify as "nothing".

But in the context of our relationship, our first real venture in to poly, our first solo experience, our own emotional development together as a couple, it was big, huge even. She understood this just as well as I did. We both knew it would take time, trust and loving communication to deal with adding a new relationship and a new lover to our equation. Veganchick ditched that and took what seemed like the easy route, just lie and not deal with it.

Maybe there is some hope. I just spoke with veganchick for a few minutes. For the first time I saw some beginning sign of owning the lies, some possible remorse at lying, maybe even some feeling of sympathy for the pain she has caused me. It's too early to tell, but maybe there is some spark of these things there and she can find the rest inside herself.

At the same time my mind keeps returning to the night we had a friend over for dinner. Veganchick spent hours painting herself as this shining example of perfect poly, all the while knowing she was lying her ass off. That's still pretty revolting, especially since up until that point our friend probably didn't even realize we were poly, or even for that matter what poly meant! Just as all of the rest of it, the lies were simply offered up/volunteered!

I guess it's not unusual for veganchick. (and no this isn't a petty jab) She tends to see herself as the person she wants to be, rather than who she is. I won't judge that or pretend to understand the psychology of it. I think that is an aspect of veganchick's personality she is beginning to own. Hopefully, it will help her grow to love herself as much as I have loved her. Either way, she will probably win in the end as I tend to be pretty crazy about both the person she is and the one she wants to be.

Hopefully this post makes any sense at all. My thoughts haven't been well collected as I have written it. I think I have now taken from this thread what I needed in writing it. Maybe it will offer more as it develops, maybe it'll just fizzle. Either is okay as I am releasing ownership of my thoughts here. Veganchick will likely be reading all of this today, with my blessing. She has shown some real respect in maturity at allowing it to be my own personal space up until now.

Oh well, the coffee is finished brewing, smells great and I could really use a cup. Who knows what this day will bring. May it be better than the last.
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