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  #31  
Old 09-10-2011, 04:10 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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It sounds like you guys need to sit down and have a SERIOUS boundary talk. In addition to the lies, he is caught up in NRE and engaging in behaviors that are destroying the bond between the two of you. Search the "boundary/foundations" threads together.

Others may disagree with me here... my husband has a habit of lying, if for nothing else than to avoid "rocking the boat" and occasionally, he actually convinces himself that the lies are fact. If he is willing, have a discussion of how he can get himself out of the lies, tell her the truth, but still save face.

I wouldn't contact her directly without discussing it with Sundance first, this would just continue the cycle of undermining and hurting each other. Do tell him you really want to call her, but discuss with him what you would say and ask him if there are any topics he doesn't want you discussing with her (at this time) and why. Reassure him that you have no intention of destroying their relationship.

Talk with Sundance about how you guys fight. Tell him how you feel when he goes into a rage. Then try and determine, what exactly triggers certain things for you. Is it the yelling? Does he throw things, make irrational statements and accusations, etc? --assuming there is no physical abuse here-- Get specific in your discussions. Coming to an agreement about a "safe word, phrase, gesture, etc" (can't think of a better name), that you can use to get him to stop and change his approach without the fear that he is being dismissed. This has worked quite well in my house.
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  #32  
Old 09-10-2011, 08:24 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
He feels it's not fair for me to say, "I expect you to share me with another man, but I cannot share you with another woman."
It's not.

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Well, how did I know I couldn't do this??? I am NOT handling it well!!! I thought I could but I'm a bit of a basket case.
I state the obvious: it's your problem. That's a harsh observation, certainly, as are most observations about reality.

If you make it his problem, too, please don't expect anything good to come of the situation. All of the resultant negative shit can then be laid at your feet.

Quote:
He says if I want him to end it, he will. But, of course, I will then be expected to end my relationship with Butch. Is THAT "fair"???
Yup.
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  #33  
Old 09-10-2011, 08:33 PM
AutumnalTone AutumnalTone is offline
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Originally Posted by SNeacail View Post
In addition to the lies,
I see lots of folks mentioning his lies and I don't see any. I see in the OP a report that he's telling Barbie stuff that isn't true--yet she hasn't actually spoken to Barbie to confirm anything that he's supposedly said. I have to wonder where that comes from. I'm unconvinced that there's anything untoward going on based on the OP (though there may be discussion of this in a blog or elsewhere that would provide better information).

All I can see is personal issues that may erupt to ruin an otherwise workable relationship.
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When speaking of various forms of non-monogamy...it ain't poly if you're just fucking around.

While polyamory, open relationships, and swinging are all distinctly different approaches to non-monogamy, they are not mutually exlusive. Folks can, and some do, engage in more than one of them at a time--and it's all good.
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  #34  
Old 09-10-2011, 08:34 PM
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Kealoha Kealoha is offline
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Carma,
*hugs* I am glad if I can help in any way. (Sorry this will probably be long again)

I know it was your plan to separate yourself from Sundance so you could sort things out in your head first, but I am actually happy that you were able to connect with him. Part of the problem between you two is the disconnect happening for so many reasons. How are you going to remember the love between you, the reasons to stay together if you are always apart?

You really need to set things down and calmly talk it out with him. Your fear, not only keeps you from telling him what you need. It keeps him from telling you what he needs as well...especially if he thinks you will react badly. When you flinch at him for getting mad at a situation (they do not always realize how scary they look to you at that moment), it makes them feel like a criminal. They will avoid it until they can't and it ends up so badly.

Finally, if he tells you that you are mistaken in how you perceive his relationship with Barbie, it is due to miscommunication. You need to remind him that it is impossible for you to know Barbie without meeting her or talking to her and vice versa. All you can do is speculate...and it is not a good place for someone who holds so much fear. The mole-hill becomes a mountain...

I am concerned when you say you are worried he might come on here and see what you have planned. It sounds like sneaking around...and creating yet another fear for you. You really do not need another reason to be scared. You are also scared of the questions Barbie may ask? Carma, please establish what you are willing to answer and what you aren't. If it's something Sundance needs to discuss with her, tell her that. Other than that, it will do you no good to agonize over a discussion that has not happened yet. There is no way of knowing what she will say or ask, and again...you do not need to scare yourself more. Since you are not acting right away, the fear will only grow if you spend all weekend stewing on this.

My advice? Go out. Get yourself out of the house for a little while. Do something that makes you smile and get out of your head and this situation for a bit. Breathe!
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  #35  
Old 09-10-2011, 08:53 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
I see lots of folks mentioning his lies and I don't see any. I see in the OP a report that he's telling Barbie stuff that isn't true--yet she hasn't actually spoken to Barbie to confirm anything that he's supposedly said. I have to wonder where that comes from.
Yes, it's been talked about in another thread of Carma's. In a nutshell, Sundance hasn't told his gf that he and Carma are open. He lied to Barbie by saying that he and Carma were in the process of separating, that Carma was having an affair (instead of her relationship with Butch being poly and consensual), and that they weren't having sex anymore, as the reasons why he could get involved with someone else. Barbie doesn't know that Carma knows about her, nor that Carma encouraged him to date. Sundance only recently told Barbie that he and Carma do have sex, and he uses the excuse that he doesn't see it as serious to keep the charade going. Carma wants him to come clean and to meet Barbie or at least for them to have some contact. She doesn't know Barbie at all and Sundance hasn't wanted Carma to reach out to her. Carma has only been told all this by Sundance, and has struggled with wondering if he's been completely honest with her as well. Since there's been deception, she's had misgivings about the whole thing and has felt like it's all her fault because she fell in love with Butch and now she has to deal with the consequences. From what Sundance has told Carma, Barbie is basically under the impression that his marriage is over -- but she may have ideas that she's going to move in and take Carma's place. We've encouraged Carma to invite Barbie over, talk to her, something, but she has thought that Sundance would be furious about that, and the truth coming out.
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Last edited by nycindie; 09-10-2011 at 09:07 PM.
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  #36  
Old 09-11-2011, 12:14 AM
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Carma Carma is offline
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Clarification:

From what Sundance has told me, he did tell Barbie I was having an affair and that I encouraged him to get a girlfriend. I'm finding out lately that he shares a lot with her about me, but I think he SLANTS things. To make me look cold and bitchy, and very moody and unpredictable. (And I do admit, my emotions have been all over the place these past couple of weeks!) His main angle, I believe, was to get her to feel sympathy for him. To keep her feeling sorry for him so she wants to "take care of him, poor starving, neglected, mistreated man."

What he didn't tell her was that the three of us made an agreement before I ever slept with Butch, and that he was willing to let me explore the relationship, because he loved me, because he believed our marriage was worth it, because he could understand how I felt about Butch and he felt compassion for him, too, as well as for me.

What he also didn't tell her was that he and I have been having sex all along. We did take a break for 2 months, around January-March, because he was feeling too upset about it -- Hey, probably the same way I am feeling right now!!!

What he didn't tell her is that I have been sensitive to his feelings, throughout the whole thing, and THAT is why I urged him to seek out a lover. Because I felt so bad, that his ego had been hit so hard. But we both talked and were interested about the idea of a new girl possibly joining OUR life. I honestly did not expect her to remain a complete stranger for so long. It's getting very uncomfortable and it is giving him way too many opportunities/excuses/reasons to be dishonest, with both of us. This is not necessary! But he thinks it is -- he thinks she will run if she finds out that he and I are more stable than he has portrayed us. By now, shouldn't he be able to open up to her more??? Oddly, I think he is exaggerating the "my wife is crazy" story! Well, I AM very emotional, some of it jealousy, which I'm trying to deal with, but also a lot of it fear, because I don't know what he is up to with her.

I knew he would be getting to know her for awhile, seeing if she could be someone he'd want to bring into our family, or at least introduce as a friend for me. I think he doubts she would be a good fit. But I'm not sure then where she does fit. I guess I'll have to just accept that she's a "girl on the side," not someone I need to concern myself with?

The problem is, she is NOT "on the side." She is caring for him like he is a sad little puppy.

Why is this my problem, really? I am tired of being upset about this and feeling a new perspective (sometimes it changes even as you write, you see your own words coming out and you say.... SO????)

Lies suck. I just don't want to lie, mostly to myself. I can't control what he does. But it's damn hard to be intimate with him one minute, then distrusting him the next.

I know some of the things he has told her because he used to show me their text conversations. He doesn't do that anymore, so I really don't know what he's telling her now. Well -- he shows me censored texts, so I don't get the whole story. He has not told her we have sex. He admitted to her that we DO sleep in the same bed. I think he skirts the topic.
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  #37  
Old 09-11-2011, 12:24 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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I'm sorry I didn't summarize it correctly. I remembered you saying he told Barbie you two were "sleeping together" but I thought that was a euphemism for sex. I hope I didn't step on your toes by laying it out for AT. But maybe it was good for you to see an outside person describe what happened? I only want to be helpful.

My reaction earlier when you said you wanted to contact her on the sly was that it was not a good idea. I thought that building on his dishonesty with some of your own would be damaging. However, now I think you should call her. But don't hide it from him. Call her and then tell him about it. If you have to leave a message let her know that the story is quite different from what she's been told.

Maybe. Oh, I don't know. There are wiser ones than me here who might have better advice.
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Last edited by nycindie; 09-11-2011 at 01:00 AM.
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  #38  
Old 09-11-2011, 01:18 AM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
My reaction earlier when you said you wanted to contact her on the sly was that it was not a good idea. I thought that building on his dishonesty with some of your own would be damaging. However, now I think you should call her. But don't hide it from him. Call her and then tell him about it. If you have to leave a message let her know that the story is quite different from what she's been told.

Maybe. Oh, I don't know. There are wiser ones than me here who might have better advice.
I'd vote for calling her too. But I'm a bitch when I'm at the end of my rope.
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  #39  
Old 09-11-2011, 01:25 AM
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I'd vote for calling her too. But I'm a bitch when I'm at the end of my rope.
I know when I've had enough, I'm like "EXCUSE ME!!! Enough of this shit!!" and just lay it all out to be dealt with!
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Last edited by nycindie; 09-11-2011 at 01:29 AM.
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  #40  
Old 09-11-2011, 04:50 AM
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Somegeezer Somegeezer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruckerPete View Post
I'd vote for calling her too. But I'm a bitch when I'm at the end of my rope.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I know when I've had enough, I'm like "EXCUSE ME!!! Enough of this shit!!" and just lay it all out to be dealt with!
Glad I'm not the only one that get be pushed to a point where I can't take anymore.

I agree with the calling or talking in general too. It's not for him to say who you talk to. I would definitely not intentionally try harm his relationship with her either though. If she chooses to leave him after knowing the truth, that isn't your fault. He should have told it from the start.
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