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Old 09-06-2011, 06:19 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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Default going from a V to an N -- do I have to??

We were finally getting our MFM V settled -- my husband had worked through a lot of jealousy, we had established and agreed upon good boundaries, the NRE had calmed down, the men were comfortable with their friendship with one another. I was in my glory, really.

But then Sundance struck up a relationship with a BarbieDoll look-alike, and now things are really sketchy.

He feels it's not fair for me to say, "I expect you to share me with another man, but I cannot share you with another woman."

Well, how did I know I couldn't do this??? I am NOT handling it well!!! I thought I could but I'm a bit of a basket case.

He says if I want him to end it, he will. But, of course, I will then be expected to end my relationship with Butch. Is THAT "fair"???

He says he's not in love with her. She however, tells him she loves him. I guess I had thought if he started a relationship with someone, we'd be introduced, we'd be like "sister wives," it would add to the love in our family. Instead, it's gone quite differently. I haven't met her, and they've been seeing each other for months now. She buys him little presents and texts him and calls him all the time. He leaves us home to go meet with her. She is not adding to the our family -- she is taking away from it! Well -- not entirely true: she also buys things for our KIDS. But she is not on our team. I believe she'd love nothing better than to wrangle my husband right into her arms. Even though he's told her he loves me and he won't get divorced, I think she believes he's staying for the sake of the kids, and that it won't hold up to her seductive wiles. (He has told her we don't sleep together, since I started seeing my boyfriend. Which is completely untrue! She probably thinks I'm some kind of cold fish.)

Trust is such a big thing in poly, I'm sure we'd all on this forum agree. I don't trust this girl. I'm trying hard to trust my husband -- but seeing him lie to her isn't helping things! If things don't change, I'm going to have to do something. Up til now I thought my only option was to break things off with Butch. But that won't stop my heart. I've tried that before; it never worked.

I've been questioning what is the right thing to do. I don't want to be a hypocrite. One thing I feel might be fair enough is to say, "If you love this girl, keep seeing her. I will work towards offering you the same respect and understanding you have so graciously given me. If you do not, I would like you to stop."

Would that be shitty of me???

I know there are many views on here about casual sex. But for me, that's not what poly is about. It's about love. Respect and honesty and being authentic.

I'm not sure if I'm being an idealist, a hypocrite, a prude, or a selfish overreactive crybaby, but in any case I guess I'm prepared for the blasting. I ask that you be gentle on me, please.
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:08 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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I reread your post and i can't seem to find anything she has done to be perceived as distrustful or dishonest. Let me check it one more time. Hold on please.


Ok, still got nothing on the girlfriend. Your husband on the hand... The word "delusional" comes to mind. Or you

That WAS sugar-coated.

Eta, sorry to do that, but ya know i just had it with letting people off the hook. I do this in real life in person every day except when i'm by myself so it's not like i'm hiding behind an anonymous internet screen name.

Srsly though. You just made a list of lies your husband told then said "i dont trust his girlfriend". Bleh.

Last edited by NeonKaos; 09-06-2011 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 09-06-2011, 07:51 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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Carma the way I see it, your issues have almost nothing to do with Barbie (or even Butch) and everything to do with Sundance. He is not being honest... You say he has lied to the g/f, but if he admits to lying to the g/f what has he been lying to you about? People don't just lie to only one person. The fact that he claims not to be in love with her I don't see as the real issue as some people take a lot longer to feel love, but the fact that he is encouraging "cowgirl" behavior is very disturbing.

This lack of honesty MUST be dealt with, it is and will continue to erode your relationship with him. Based on other things you have said, it almost sounds like there is a revenge factor and maybe he is trying to "even the score". It sounds like you guys need some professional counceling, I doubt this will just fix itself.
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Old 09-06-2011, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
We were finally getting our MFM V settled -- my husband had worked through a lot of jealousy, we had established and agreed upon good boundaries, the NRE had calmed down, the men were comfortable with their friendship with one another. I was in my glory, really.

But then Sundance struck up a relationship with a BarbieDoll look-alike, and now things are really sketchy.

He feels it's not fair for me to say, "I expect you to share me with another man, but I cannot share you with another woman."
While I'm far more interested in "what works?" than in notions of "what's fair?" I would point out that your husband went through a lot of personal soul-searching to come to terms with your polyamory, and if this is what he wants (and what he actually wants rather than just a tit for tat phase) then I believe that you owe it to him to at least try.

Quote:
Well, how did I know I couldn't do this??? I am NOT handling it well!!! I thought I could but I'm a bit of a basket case.

He says if I want him to end it, he will. But, of course, I will then be expected to end my relationship with Butch. Is THAT "fair"???
As above, it's not really about fair, it's about what people want/need for themselves.

Quote:
He says he's not in love with her. She however, tells him she loves him. I guess I had thought if he started a relationship with someone, we'd be introduced, we'd be like "sister wives," it would add to the love in our family. Instead, it's gone quite differently. I haven't met her, and they've been seeing each other for months now. She buys him little presents and texts him and calls him all the time. He leaves us home to go meet with her. She is not adding to the our family -- she is taking away from it! Well -- not entirely true: she also buys things for our KIDS. But she is not on our team. I believe she'd love nothing better than to wrangle my husband right into her arms. Even though he's told her he loves me and he won't get divorced, I think she believes he's staying for the sake of the kids, and that it won't hold up to her seductive wiles. (He has told her we don't sleep together, since I started seeing my boyfriend. Which is completely untrue! She probably thinks I'm some kind of cold fish.)
Couple of things here, first off, I don't think you should insist on her becoming "part of the family", for a start you have no idea whether you'd even like this woman. I would say that it's basic courtesy to introduce her to you, but I wouldn't feel that he has any further obligation than that, unless all three of you wanted more than that.

You talk about her "taking away from the family" and "she'd love nothing better than to wrangle my husband right into her arms" but this is just your own insecurities talking. You have no idea what this woman wants out of this relationship, for all you know, she might PREFER that he has a family to go to.

Lying to her though is a warning flag, although that would be true of any serious relationship.

Quote:
Trust is such a big thing in poly, I'm sure we'd all on this forum agree. I don't trust this girl. I'm trying hard to trust my husband -- but seeing him lie to her isn't helping things! If things don't change, I'm going to have to do something. Up til now I thought my only option was to break things off with Butch. But that won't stop my heart. I've tried that before; it never worked.

I've been questioning what is the right thing to do. I don't want to be a hypocrite. One thing I feel might be fair enough is to say, "If you love this girl, keep seeing her. I will work towards offering you the same respect and understanding you have so graciously given me. If you do not, I would like you to stop."
I think the communication and trust is a big issue here, and one that has to be worked out between you and your husband, regardless of any other relationships. The only thing I would say is that requiring him to love her at this early stage of their relationship is a little unfair - love isn't an instant process and you need to remember that his relationship with her is young compared to his with you.

Quote:
Would that be shitty of me???

I know there are many views on here about casual sex. But for me, that's not what poly is about. It's about love. Respect and honesty and being authentic.

I'm not sure if I'm being an idealist, a hypocrite, a prude, or a selfish overreactive crybaby, but in any case I guess I'm prepared for the blasting. I ask that you be gentle on me, please.
I came to this topic based on you posting in the belief systems topic, and in it you said that you're most comfortable in the MFM V that you've got going on, but although we all do it sometimes, it's important to remember that there are the other people in the relationship with you (something I'm often guilty of!). It's great when you find your perfect fit, but if it's not EVERYONE's perfect fit then there's still work to be done.

I guess the answer to your question, do I have to go from V to N is no, you don't have to. Like I said in the belief systems topic, everyone needs to work out what is and isn't right for them, and this is one of those things. If him having another relationship is a dealbreaker for you, then it's a dealbreaker. However, I believe that the most important thing to do is to work on your communication with your husband.

Best of luck
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Old 09-06-2011, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
We were finally getting our MFM V settled -- my husband had worked through a lot of jealousy, we had established and agreed upon good boundaries, the NRE had calmed down, the men were comfortable with their friendship with one another. I was in my glory, really.

But then Sundance struck up a relationship with a BarbieDoll look-alike, and now things are really sketchy.

He feels it's not fair for me to say, "I expect you to share me with another man, but I cannot share you with another woman."

Well, how did I know I couldn't do this??? I am NOT handling it well!!! I thought I could but I'm a bit of a basket case.

He says if I want him to end it, he will. But, of course, I will then be expected to end my relationship with Butch. Is THAT "fair"???

He says he's not in love with her. She however, tells him she loves him. I guess I had thought if he started a relationship with someone, we'd be introduced, we'd be like "sister wives," it would add to the love in our family. Instead, it's gone quite differently. I haven't met her, and they've been seeing each other for months now. She buys him little presents and texts him and calls him all the time. He leaves us home to go meet with her. She is not adding to the our family -- she is taking away from it! Well -- not entirely true: she also buys things for our KIDS. But she is not on our team. I believe she'd love nothing better than to wrangle my husband right into her arms. Even though he's told her he loves me and he won't get divorced, I think she believes he's staying for the sake of the kids, and that it won't hold up to her seductive wiles. (He has told her we don't sleep together, since I started seeing my boyfriend. Which is completely untrue! She probably thinks I'm some kind of cold fish.)

Trust is such a big thing in poly, I'm sure we'd all on this forum agree. I don't trust this girl. I'm trying hard to trust my husband -- but seeing him lie to her isn't helping things! If things don't change, I'm going to have to do something. Up til now I thought my only option was to break things off with Butch. But that won't stop my heart. I've tried that before; it never worked.

I've been questioning what is the right thing to do. I don't want to be a hypocrite. One thing I feel might be fair enough is to say, "If you love this girl, keep seeing her. I will work towards offering you the same respect and understanding you have so graciously given me. If you do not, I would like you to stop."

Would that be shitty of me???

I know there are many views on here about casual sex. But for me, that's not what poly is about. It's about love. Respect and honesty and being authentic.

I'm not sure if I'm being an idealist, a hypocrite, a prude, or a selfish overreactive crybaby, but in any case I guess I'm prepared for the blasting. I ask that you be gentle on me, please.
Yes, you are being a hypocrite.
Yes, it is shitty.
Your fear is dictating your thoughts.

It is UNFAIR of you on a few fronts;

- 'We' (collective) do not get to dictate how our partners do ( aka 'feel') poly. So YOU want love. Great. It is definitely unfair that you dictate he has to feel the same way about his partners that you do yours. It is also unfair that you expect him to live up to the ideal in your head of how your poly is to be. This is no different, then those who want the unicorn, and 1 partner finds something different. You should work on the differences and creating a new vision.

- If you don`t like what he is doing with her, then butt out. That said,..I think this is where your true problem lies. I am not so sure he is being honest with,.....you.
For instance : Why would she KEEP telling him she loves him, and get nothing in return ?

-Vetos : Here is where I would challenge the two schools of thoughts on Vetos. ( You are pretty much suggesting you get to kill his relationship, so veto it is.) I am neither for nor against them. I would say a 'smart' veto would happen when the partner who uses that card, makes sure they do NOT call veto, while under stress, tension, fear, or anger.
If someone can calm down, work on issues, and still see no results, then a veto might be a proper option.

You asked us not to be to hard on you. Here is where I get kinder.

I do not think that you can`t 'handle' him having another partner.
What you can`t handle, is all the lying.

I think your fear is very legit. You are NOT getting the whole truth.

Stop thinking you need to be Super Poly Woman.


Work on that. It always feels easier to want to fix ourselves, because we can control that. We can make things better then. You seem to want to find fault with yourself, in a situation, where you and someone else, are being lied to on a regular basis.

Time to put the responsibility where it belongs.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:29 PM
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I think it's definitely something to do with getting revenge on you. He seems he wants to hurt you and get rid of this Butch. I don't think you should, just to please him. He needs to sort himself out.

If, however, he is actually, truly wanting that relationship with Barbie, then it is up to him. If you are unhappy that he has someone else, get over it or end it. But living as a hypocrite is never a happy life.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:36 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Hey Carma, I don't want to just reiterate the things I've said on your blog, but I'm really curious, wouldn't it be easier to issue an ultimatum about honesty than about the relationship period? So, not "you can only be with Barbie if you love her the way I love Butch" but rather "you can only be with Barbie if you're honest with her the way I'm honest with Butch"?

To me, that seems not only more fair, in that you're asking him to change something he can control (his actions) versus something he can't control (his feelings), but also more relevant to the root of the issue you're having with their relationship.

Lies are toxic, they metastasize. This is not going to get easier for anyone if he just "gives it more time." Instead, the longer this goes on as is the more betrayed she's going to feel and, therefore, the more of a threat she may pose to your family's reputation, livelihood, who knows (you know what they say about a woman scorned).

Asking that you get an outside partner while he doesn't is, I think at least, too much to ask. Asking for a policy of honesty, on the other hand, is NOT too much to ask. And I think, with the history of his lies to you and to her, honesty at this point is going to have to involve you and she meeting... otherwise how can you trust that he's really come completely clean to her?

She doesn't need to be your sister wife or even your friend. But she needs to meet you and know who you really are, as opposed to the pretend person your husband has told her about. That's my take on it.
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Old 09-06-2011, 11:56 PM
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Anneintherain Anneintherain is offline
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I have to second AnnabelMore - I had read some other threads you were talking about this on, and time after time after time, people asked you straight out why you didn't insist on him being honest with her/meeting her.

For lots of people this is a dealbreaker in poly relationships, to have their partner being dishonest with others. You ignored the question each time it was brought up.

Really, things will change for the better or worse once he is honest, any of this other crap you're worrying about is pretty much irrelevant until you know how she will react.

Is there some reason you aren't laying down the "I need to meet her, I need to know she knows the truth and everybody is on the same page" card? Considering she might run the fuck away once she meets you, I'd think this would be what you want. I'd really like to know why you don't insist on meeting her, who cares what she looks like. I think you guys really could use more work on boundaries.

Sure it sounds like he and her have a really fucked up unilateral relationship where it's true love for her and who knows what for him. He stands outside the house with her peering into the windows so she can see what his home life looks like? Sure if he meets somebody who isn't clingy and thinks she is going to steal him away from his wife and is brought into an honest open scenario, you will need to probably suck it up and support it, but this sure doesn't seem like a smart or healthy "relationship" for anybody, especially Barbie, whom I pity greatly.
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Last edited by Anneintherain; 09-07-2011 at 12:01 AM.
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:52 PM
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Thanks to all for your feedback (even the harsh stuff, I know I need a thump on the head sometimes).

I've been pushing him to truth up and get real with her, and for all 3 of us to meet. He DOES say he's working on it, and I believe him. She asked him yesterday, "You and Carma sleep together, don't you?" And she must have asked it mildly and gently enough that he felt safe to say "yes." So that was a good step.

What I'm finding is, he may not want to continue his relationship with her. She is pretty flighty and scattered, and has a boyfriend herself. At first it seemed she was only with the bf for his MONEY, but come to find out, she is kind of hung up on the guy, after all. (He is old and very rich -- and VERY non-commital to her. Treats her like crap, actually. Sundance has been a huge contrast to the way she's been treated. In that regard I feel immense sympathy for her and I could be her friend). Sundance is seeing things about her he didn't know at first, like she drinks A LOT. At this point I think he is considering that he may want to bow out slowly without decimating her. (And yes, like Anna said, he may fear the "woman scorned" reaction).

You are all so right -- fear has been BLINDING me these past few weeks. I feel it has lifted today. What a roller coaster. I am definitely a perfectionist, who thinks if I just do everything perfectly, I can avoid all bad consequences of life and love, ha! (You mean I DON'T have to be Super Poly Woman, SourG??)

We definitely have some work to do, and this has been a learning experience, sometimes an excruciating one. I know Sundance is not perfect, and he is not always making the best decisions in this, but he definitely does not want us to break up, I know that for certain. He IS trying, and he is open to conversation, we talk all the time. I appreciate the insights and perspectives I get here, so much. It really helps me, especially when I'm on over-analyze paranoia mode. Or -- delusional (Neon) -- so thanks, all of you.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:08 PM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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I'm sorry Carma, I feel for you, but I think you've been adviced out at this point. Things cannot progress until the honesty issues are sorted out. You will keep coming back, asking variations on the same questions, over and over if you do not deal with this core issue.

The only problem I can see is between you and Sundance. The rest is speculation because who knows what's actually being said to everyone?

And yet you dance around that issue, ignore other's comments on it, or say they have a good point but never offer updates about any steps that have been taken because of this advice.

You've really gone through every possible cause EXCEPT the most obvious. Is it a problem with you? Is it a problem with Butch? Is it a problem with Barbie and Sundance? No. Well maybe, but the lying is muddying the waters so much that you can't tell until it is dealt with.

I suspect that even if you were to use veto powers and sack both of your OSO relationships, the problems would not be resolved. You can't go back to the way things were, because you've seen this side of him in action and it will continue to haunt you.
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