Advice for a secondary in a slowly opening marriage

[kidsoul]

Originally Posted by AnnabelMore

One thing for the husband to consider... by making you two "forbidden fruit" to each other he may actually be making your infatuation with each other that much stronger, even while you're hurting over it... that's how these things often go. Is that really what he wants?

I think everyone has acted admirably here, but if he really cares about you two he needs to recognize that you're adults with needs and this is a little silly... if you two are so emotionally entangled, that's just as potent and just as much (really just as little) of a threat to him as if you were physically entangled too. Does he really want to deal with his wife's depression and resentment if she loses you because you can't take it any more?

Thank you! These are great points and intend to bring them to her attention.

[AnnabelMore]

I forget if this is from the xeromag secondary's bill of rights or elsewhere, but... you have a right to a say in the shape your relationships take. It shouldn't all just be her and him discussing and then informing you of your limits. I know that sounds idealistic now, but your needs should count too.

[kidsoul]

Originally Posted by BlackUnicorn

I was referring to a bad prognosis in general for the combination of the following;
1) Very strict boundaries that are enforced for unlimited duration and;
2) Constant physical proximity

I think it creates a situation where the secondary sees the love and affection freely flowing between the primary couple while being prohibited from enjoying that flow themselves, and 9 times out of 10, that creates envy and bitterness in the long run. The prognosis for continued emotional health and fulfillment isn't very good in this scenario IMHO.

This. This is exactly the sentiment I've been struggling to pull out from the depths of my grey matter. Thank you! I should add that it's not that I'm envious of what they have (hell, I WANT them to have a happy and fulfilling sex life)--it's what her and I can't have (right now anyway--ever the optimist).

[ray]

So, I dont want to come off as the voice of doom but be careful. I was in a similar situation and it ended very badly and was incredibly damaging. When a couple imposes overly strict boundaries for indefinite periods of time that is a huge red flag to me. You must also assess whether the husband is opening but slowly or if he's just not going anywhere. I agree with what BU has said. In my experience, trying to fit so a relationship into a role that it doesnt really belong in causes incredible pain. If they cant open, then they have no business being involved with you right now. And you must decide if this relationship is really adding joy to your life or is it increasing your suffering. A reluctant spouse is nothing to be trifled with. I will never again be in a relationship where I am not allowed to say I love you.

[kidsoul]

Originally Posted by AnnabelMore

I forget if this is from the xeromag secondary's bill of rights or elsewhere, but... you have a right to a say in the shape your relationships take. It shouldn't all just be her and him discussing and then informing you of your limits. I know that sounds idealistic now, but your needs should count too.

This is great advice. But I lack the tools to do so. What do I say?

I have been understanding--you don't turn a traditional monogamous marriage of 21 years into an open one overnight. This has been driven by my nature to be compassionate, and to see things from everyone's point of view. But also, I must admit, partly out of fear. I didn't want to upset her husband and jeopardize the relationship and any potential forward progress.

It's only recently that I've become comfortable enough to even contemplate discussing these things with him.

Another thing, I'm not sure she fully understood just how painful this has been for me until now. How do I convey these sentiments without hurling (e.g. LOOK WHAT YOU DID TO ME!!) emotional slings? I guess in some ways, you can't. But I do want to avoid "twisting the knife" as it were, if that's possible. Anyone have advice on this?

[ray]

also, if they cant or wont pay attention to your needs, you should consider breaking up.

[nycindie]

Originally Posted by kidsoul

We are all new to poly. We've been stumbling forward. The only agreements have been made between her and him. We three have never sat down to discuss boundaries and rules or schedules.

Well, that is unacceptable. At eight months, you may be new to poly, but not too new in the relationship to get together and fucking talk! And to stand up for your own wants/needs/boundaries.

Originally Posted by kidsoul

. . . I lack the tools to do so.

What do you mean by this? Are you mute and unable to speak?

[kidsoul]

Originally Posted by nycindie

What do you mean by this? Are you mute and unable to speak?

Ever the provocateur nycindie?

The point is taken though. I've been worried about being able to convey my thoughts in a conversational tone. In a way that would be advance the dialog, and avoid increasing the emotional temperature.

Ha! I've just realized something--my behavior indicates that I am a person that seeks to avoid conflict.

[River]

Kidsoul,

How intelligent and adult and sensitive, etc., you are! Cool!

After so many months, you've proven your worth and value and worthiness.... Now seems to be the time to take a difficult risk. I'm rooting for you.

[nycindie]

Originally Posted by kidsoul

Ever the provocateur nycindie?

Nail. On. Head.

Originally Posted by kidsoul

The point is taken though. I've been worried about being able to convey my thoughts in a conversational tone. In a way that would be advance the dialog, and avoid increasing the emotional temperature.

Ha! I've just realized something--my behavior indicates that I am a person that seeks to avoid conflict.

Well, the conflict is already there even if no one speaks about it. That the conflict exists (you want something different than what they want) can't really be avoided.

What you can avoid is blaming. I don't think it's a bad thing if, when you speak to them/her, you become emotional or angry or frustrated or whatever. That would be staying true to yourself. But you can deliver even the most difficult of communications while remaining calm and not making anyone the "bad guy." It just takes focusing on what you need to say and staying in the present moment -- rather than going off into some imagined scenario in your head about how your message will be received or what's going to happen to you or the unfairness of it all. AND listening. Without really hearing what someone is saying to you, you can't really communicate back. But it is listening to the subtext as well as the words. For example, if the husband says, "I don't feel comfortable with you tongue-kissing my wife," I would ask "What are you afraid of?" rather than just accept it as a boundary. They might still want those boundaries, or shut down and not answer, but at least you did your part in making an effort to have a productive discussion of the situation.