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  #11  
Old 08-21-2011, 05:14 PM
Rayek Rayek is offline
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Originally Posted by CranberryStardust View Post
I am new to all of this as well but...

I totally understand your need and desire to meet Mary. It would also concern me if I asked to meet someone, anyone, who was in my partners life and they were soooo opposed to it. What's the big deal? Why is she so adamant with her refusal? To me, it almost sounds like she realizes how important it is to you and is using it to exert some control.

I am curious. Again, new to all of this, but traditionally, when we are dating someone, we meet their friends, families, coworkers eventually...its part of knowing someone, it brings you closer. So why would it ne abnormal or wrong to want to meet your partners other romantic partner? Question for those who expressed that he shouldn't want to meet Mary.

Also, the father comments? Completely rude. She is taking the sex and love out of your relationship with Beth with that comment and making you a stuffy, stodgy old man character. Hmmm...maybe that's how she prefers to think of you? Maybe she feels more threatened or insecure than you know and wants to pretend you are just a Platonic fatherly figure in Beth's life rather than a person with feelings and desires just like her.

Just musing.
All of this is what I've been thinking for the past two weeks. Not fun
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  #12  
Old 08-21-2011, 06:41 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Originally Posted by Rayek View Post
All of this is what I've been thinking for the past two weeks. Not fun
As I've said in other posts, I hate the assumption that my partner's sweeties have to be my BFFs, etc. I do think meeting them is important and it's something my partner and I make sure happens, but it can't be forced.

Try to understand Mary's position for a sec rather than making her a pantomime villain. You have no idea what Beth has been saying to her about anything. Maybe before you worked things out Beth trash-talked you. Maybe Mary is nervous because she's the "secondary" in this relationship and feels anxious. Is she a lesbian? Maybe she feels like Beth is just playing and is going to leave her in the end. Maybe she feels pressured and isn't ready. Maybe she doesn't fully trust Beth to have her back as well as yours if there are issues between the two of you. Maybe Beth sees this demand as a way of you exerting control and "vetting" her relationships and has told Mary that.
Who knows? It doesn't seem clear and might not even be that important.

My advice would be to just let it go for awhile. Think hard about whether it is something in any way related to a control issue on your part. Focus on spending time with Beth, building trust with her in your now poly relationship. Then, bring it up with her and explain it as something that is important to you, and that if she loves Mary, then you think Mary is someone you'd like to get to at least meet.

Good luck.
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  #13  
Old 08-21-2011, 07:35 PM
Rayek Rayek is offline
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Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
As I've said in other posts, I hate the assumption that my partner's sweeties have to be my BFFs, etc. I do think meeting them is important and it's something my partner and I make sure happens, but it can't be forced.

Try to understand Mary's position for a sec rather than making her a pantomime villain. You have no idea what Beth has been saying to her about anything. Maybe before you worked things out Beth trash-talked you. Maybe Mary is nervous because she's the "secondary" in this relationship and feels anxious. Is she a lesbian? Maybe she feels like Beth is just playing and is going to leave her in the end. Maybe she feels pressured and isn't ready. Maybe she doesn't fully trust Beth to have her back as well as yours if there are issues between the two of you. Maybe Beth sees this demand as a way of you exerting control and "vetting" her relationships and has told Mary that.
Who knows? It doesn't seem clear and might not even be that important.

My advice would be to just let it go for awhile. Think hard about whether it is something in any way related to a control issue on your part. Focus on spending time with Beth, building trust with her in your now poly relationship. Then, bring it up with her and explain it as something that is important to you, and that if she loves Mary, then you think Mary is someone you'd like to get to at least meet.

Good luck.
I would love to be able to see Mary's position, but I really hate to suppose, which is why a meeting would clear a lot of things up. Not even a meeting about 'business' or whatnot, just seeing who she is, what she likes. I don't want to be her BFF, I just want to be friendly.

I think all of this has been dealt with. Beth and I are very open about needs and wants from each other. Beth also assures me that she speaks of me in a high regard with Mary, and I believe her. Beth and I have had a wonderful relationship, and no doubt we love each other. For example, Beth identifies as a Lesbian, but I'm not necessarily 'a man', so she finds me very attractive and we have an excellent sex life, but because she needs to be with women. If our relationship were to go away, she told me she would swear off men. But next Tuesday, we're going in to get her an IUD. If she didn't want to have sex with me, or hated me, secretly, I doubt that would be happening.

Another thing about the secondary relationship is that Beth and I are moving to San Francisco in December. Mary knows this, and they've been under the assumption that it's going to last until then. Very hard move to make, and yet Beth is packing her things already. She's already shipped a few boxes to my parent's.

This all to say that I have no doubt about Beth's love for me, I trust her implicitly when she tells me things about the relationship. I've had a hard time opening up and sharing my feelings with her, but once I did I found that we were both growing stronger, working through things. As I said, poly is the best thing to happen to our relationship.

My main concern regarding Beth's behaviour comes because I'm aware she's wrapped up in a lot of NRE. I know she'll be honest with me, but if Mary deems a situation too tense or feels one way or another, I don't think she has the willpower to be assertive. I don't even think they've had a serious talk about Beth's needs regarding Mary. I'd hope that one of Beth's needs in general is that we stay together and things go as smoothly as possible. I just don't think she truly understand the correlation between metamors' feelings could make or break the whole thing.

The problem is that I've already talked to Beth about how I'm feeling about it. I have been all sorts of communicative on the subject. My main quandary is that I feel like I'm doing all the emotional work, Beth is helping me, and Mary doesn't seem to think my feelings matter to her situation. But really, I don't know. Which is why a meeting or a chat would go miles to clearing up everything.

Another thing to note is that Mary is not at all versed in poly relationships. She's been with people who have another partner, but it was mostly sexual relationships and nothing more. Which annoys me to no end, because I don't think Beth is doing all in her power to make her understand the situation.

You're right though, I have to check myself constantly about falling into the 'controller' role. That would be the antithesis of what I strive for in this whole matter.

Thanks for the help, this is helping a lot, thank you everybody.
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  #14  
Old 08-22-2011, 05:53 AM
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Have you tried doing a tag search here for "secondary" "metamour" and anything else you couldn't find elsewhere? There are a lot of threads with those tags, maybe you will find something useful.

This hasn't been very long it seems. I think if I were you I would keep at it and keep asking to meet. To me it is a red flag if one of my loves has a partner that doesn't want to meet me SOMETIME... I can see how they might want to wait a bit and work up to it, but never...? Nuh uh.

I agree that going about your business and not worrying about what you do is the best bet. It's her problem if you happen to meet.
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  #15  
Old 08-22-2011, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayek View Post
Actually, come to think of it, I had mentioned that I'd wanted to meet or hang out with Beth's "friends with benefits" before, and her sexual partners were always against the idea. So, this has come up before under different circumstances.
Maybe it's not her partner's that were against the idea?
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  #16  
Old 08-22-2011, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by SNeacail View Post
Maybe it's not her partners that were against the idea?
Well, as he said, those other partners were just casual hookups, FWBs, FBs. When I first separated, I dated casually for a while, while also having a gf, and we didn't bother to set her up to meet all those people. She only ended up meeting 2 out of like 2 dozen, after I'd been seeing them for several months.

This case is more likely to be because Beth is a dyke and her gf is a dyke, and Rayek, while genderqueer, has a dreaded penis. There is a good deal of prejudice in dykeland against penises. (My gf miss pixie is a transwoman and we have experienced this first hand.)

I am sorry you're feeling excluded, Rayek.
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  #17  
Old 08-22-2011, 01:04 PM
Rayek Rayek is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
This case is more likely to be because Beth is a dyke and her gf is a dyke, and Rayek, while genderqueer, has a dreaded penis. There is a good deal of prejudice in dykeland against penises. (My gf miss pixie is a transwoman and we have experienced this first hand.)

I am sorry you're feeling excluded, Rayek.
This is a really interesting comment because we had a long chat about our whole situation together last night and things are becoming more clear. It turns out that she hasn't been into men, or me, for the past couple months. That I do have the dreaded penis, and that she loves me but isn't sure that our sex life can really recover.

This pains me to no end, especially because I've been trying to make everything work so hard and because she's admitted that she has bad rape trauma issues, and has only just begun to see someone about it. I'd hate to think that I will lose the love of my life because of some horrible person that did unspeakable things to her, but if she's not willing to try anymore then there's not much left. I love her more than I've loved anyone, but if she's unhappy and its my doing then I'll hate myself.

I called out from work today, I'm waiting to see if she just needs a break for a week or so for her to understand what she wants, or if we're going to wait until she's seen the therapist more times than just one, or if it's all over.

I hate biology, if I was a woman none of this would be happening right now. I'm scared. I know it's really hard to ask a lot of people I don't know for verbal support, but I just need to talk to someone. Someone who knows about genderqueer, lesbian, that sort of thing. If you're interested in helping, PM me today and we'll trade numbers. I just need perspective, I'm hurting a lot.
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  #18  
Old 08-22-2011, 01:36 PM
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  #19  
Old 08-27-2011, 11:40 PM
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Hmmm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayek
Her partner, on the other hand, isn't as forgiving . . .

Mary seems to think . . .

And [Mary]'s very much against any awkwardness . . .

Mary doesn't just not want to 'run into me', she doesn't want to know me at all. . . .

[Mary] obviously has misconceptions about the situation and about me . . .

. . . in many ways [Mary] can pretend that Beth and I don't exist . . .
For someone you haven't met yet, it is rather peculiar that you assume to know so much about what Mary's thinking and feeling.

But the real crux of the matter, I believe, is this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayek
I don't know if I trust Mary, and I don't really like the idea of someone who seems like she doesn't like me being close to the one I love. I hate to not be able to set the record straight about myself, especially to someone who's affecting my life so drastically.

After Mary refused the invitation I got a bit irritated and felt a little helpless . . .

. . . that she can pretend that Beth and I don't exist is a big hindrance. And quite a worry, too. And it slightly offends me.
Feeling offended is a choice. You don't have to choose that response. I really do not see what is so drastically affecting you, simply because Mary does not want to meet you. You've made a lot of conclusions about how she feels about you, and even if some of it was relayed to you via Beth, I see a lot of drama that doesn't need to be attached to the situation. This appears to me to be an inside job. You want to blame Mary, but even if you did meet her and it went just the way you wanted it to go, your issues about trust, insecurity, and wanting to be in control need to be resolved internally and no one else can do that but you.

Your focus should be on your relationship with Beth, not her relationship with Mary. Do your part to make your relationship with Beth as nurturing, loving, fun, and caring as it can be and whatever happens with Mary will be just something you know about but with very little impact on you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
First, Mary is a metamour, not a tertiary. You're not dating Mary so she isn't primary/secondary/tertiary to you in any fashion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayek View Post
Sorry if my terms are incorrect, I'm Beth's primary, Mary is her tertiary. I don't think I said she was my tertiary or anything, just that the relationship they have together isn't the primary one.
Isn't primary for whom? Maybe it is primary for Mary. But I think you probably mean secondary for Beth. Tertiary would mean third partner for Beth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AutumnalTone View Post
Next, Mary has no obligation whatsoever to meet you and spend time with you. It is as simple as that. Whether or not the two of you meet has absolutely nothing to do with showing respect for the other's time with Beth.

Third, your reaction to going to the same bar they were scheduled to arrive at later is entirely your problem. You could have stayed there and enjoyed yourself--you had no obligation to leave just because Mary doesn't want to run into you. Piss on that--you don't have to schedule your life around her desire to not meet you. How 'bout you stop worrying about that and schedule your free time without giving her a single thought? Life will be much better that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayek View Post
I'd like to know why/how not wanting to meet me is in any way showing respect for the fact that I exist in Beth's life.

. . . everything I've ever read on the subject says otherwise. In fact, some people here have put "not wanting to meet their partner's other partners" in their list of 'red flag behaviours' . . . Also, I've not felt more talked-down to about something serious...
Wow, how is someone telling you to enjoy yourself, without twisting yourself into a pretzel to accommodate someone else, being talked-down to? Hmmm. Methinks you let yourself get easily offended by people who have a differing viewpoint from how you see things.

But it is true that Mary isn't obligated to meet you. It is true she isn't obligated to try and get along with you. You assume that not wanting to do so is disrespectful, but maybe she's just uncomfortable with it and doesn't want to. Maybe she just doesn't like men (and you really want to hang out with her?). Since you and Beth are moving away in December, maybe Mary doesn't want to get too entrenched in Beth's life (ie., by meeting you) before she moves away. Maybe Mary just wants to enjoy her time with Beth and has no need for thinking about any of Beth's other relationships. So what? That doesn't necessarily show disrespect or even remotely have an affect on you unless you let it. I've had a few relationships which were sort of only existing in our own little bubble - I didn't need to know about nor meet anyone else in the person's life to enjoy being with them, and it didn't mean I disrespected anyone or anything they had going on.

Just because many people say that it can make relationships easier for metamours to meet, doesn't make it a requirement. Every situation is different. Someone else's red flag doesn't have to be your red flag.

I would just let it go and continue working on your self-growth and personal issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayek
I want Beth to explore this.
Well, she'll do what she wants and what feels right for her, no matter what it is you want her to do.
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/

Last edited by nycindie; 08-27-2011 at 11:48 PM.
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  #20  
Old 08-28-2011, 01:45 PM
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This is all kind of moot right now, I think.
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