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  #81  
Old 09-02-2011, 08:35 PM
MichelleZed MichelleZed is offline
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Woah, this is getting into dangerous territory here. Does Sundance know he is wrecking things so spectacularly?

I think you need to talk to him ASAP and let him know that his *current* actions are eroding your trust in him and your respect for him. Tell him you didn't think he was the kind of guy who would lead a woman on. Tell him that if he behaves without integrity like this, that it's affecting how you see him as a person. Does he like the person he's become?

Is he sabotaging his marriage like this on purpose? If not, he should know that it's what he's doing NOW.

Sure, meeting the girl and being friends with her and all that might help. But you can't (and shouldn't) have a relationship with her for him. He has to do that.
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  #82  
Old 09-07-2011, 12:21 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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I am sorry to be coming into this thread late. So many interesting and disturbing things have been discussed, so much caring and support, already, that my words seem superfluous to myself. But that doesn't stop me from putting my $.02 in anyway!

I concur with many things already said and suggested, but will comment on areas that haven't been delved into too much. Carma, you said that before meeting you, Sundance was a Casanova, going from one woman to the next in shallow relationships. I take that to mean, he enjoyed fucking these women, liked their bodies, attention and fawning, so would say most anything to get them to fuck him, including lies about how much he cared about them.

(A common male trait, of course.)

Now, because of certain guilt you have about loving Butch, you encouraged Sun to try and meet other women, hoping he'd find a love match like you enjoy with Butch, to, as you said, take the pressure off of you.

So, Sun has found "Barbie." BTW, using that name for her is kind of odd... sure, she may be conventionally beautiful, blonde perhaps, but calling her by a doll's name does tend to make her seem more like a toy, and less like a full human being. You say you want her to be a full person for Sun, but yet it seems in your mind, she is, or should be, just a toy, a living doll.

Now, because of Sun's past life as a Casanova, you suspect he is treating Barbie the way he treated those women he fucked in the past~~ telling them sweet nothings to get in their pants. However, since he's had 12 years of a real relationship with you, there might be a conflict in his mind. Does he mean the loving things he says to Barbie, or not? The hearts on the GPS could be a sweet nothing. But letting her spy into your windows, and going to meet her family, imply deeper, if confused feelings.

I suspect he does love her and has told her so... and lied to you that he doesn't love her, and hasn't told her. He's used to placating the women in his life, telling them what he thinks they want to hear.

So, that is my view on this aspect of how Sun is "handling" you and his gf.
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me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
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  #83  
Old 09-07-2011, 12:48 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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2nd post from me, on another topic. Leaving Barbie out of the equation for a minute, let's look at your V, you, Sun and Butch. I admit I previously had had the impression you 3 were all good. You loved both men, the guys love each other as friends, one big happy family.

Now, in reading this thread, I see how wrong I was! I had no idea how you limited your interaction with Butch to spare Sun's feelings. Not saying you love each other. Only seeing him a couple hours a week. Him not wanting to accept gifts from you. Avoidance of terms of endearment for his penis... etc.

On this thread, you have compared both you and Butch to "machines." Your avoidance of fully immersing yourselves in NRE to placate Sun's feelings is disturbing to me. It's noble, but ultimately, untruthful, and I see it as harming the entire V in an attempt to help it.

Now, Sun is not doing this. He is fully immersed in his NRE, texting her a lot, cleaning the house so she wouldnt be offended by its mess when she peeked in, accepting her gifts, meeting her family, telling her how he misses her when they are apart (and he is with you!), etc.

I don't blame any of the 4 of you for all the stumbles and mistakes you are all making... after all, you are all new to poly, and the jealousy, and the overwhelming NRE. Also there is the issue of time management~~ you've got kids and are of course, distracted by their needs. Also, Sun has a hella long commute to and from work, it eats up so much time in his day.

I truly do think it's ultimatum time for you and Sun. It seems you and he have a long history of "little white lies" and this has got to stop. His lies are NOT little. Lying to Barbie about the reality of his relationship with you is HUGE. White, meaning pure or well-meaning, perhaps. But definitely not little.

Barbie obviously has deep love for what Sun lets her see of him (note my choice of words... he isn't telling her who he really is). Sun is in love with you, his wife, and attempting to return to his Casanova persona with Barbie out of an old habit. But it should be obvious to both of you, that if you 2 want to be a poly couple, he needs to come clean to her about his reality.

If Sun is NOT poly, and wants a casual fling with someone else, she should be aware of that, and willing to understand she's low on the totem pole, and will never be more than a secondary. There is nothing wrong with casual sex/relationships, but both parties should be in agreement that is all it is. I don't get the impression Barbie is just a sex toy to Sun. She seems to be something more. He may not be sure himself. Both of you need to step up to the plate, come clean about the depths of your feelings for both of your OSOs. Be honest with yourselves, with each other, and with Butch and Barbie.

Yes, it's hard. It's like jumping off a cliff. Saying those honest things is damn scary. There is a fear of rejection. A fear of losing each other. It takes trust to know how important you are to Sun, and that he won't dump you for Barbie just because you are 100% authentic to him about your love for Butch. If you admit it, it might give him a feeling of safety to admit the depth of his feelings for Barbie, admit it to himself, and to you, and then trust he has the go ahead to tell her the depth of his feelings for you. About his deep love for you, and his commitment to you, for you, and stop letting her think you and he are only together for the kids.

Everyone needs to get on the same page. Open and honest and even relentless communication is needed here, or you will continue to flounder in a land of shadows, suspicions, and fear.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37

Last edited by Magdlyn; 09-07-2011 at 12:54 PM.
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  #84  
Old 09-08-2011, 02:01 AM
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Carma Carma is offline
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Just wrote a long post and was logged off before I could send it ARGH! Will post tomorrow. Mags, your input helped immensely.
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  #85  
Old 09-08-2011, 02:05 AM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Make sure you click the "remember me" box when you log on, or you'll get timed out when composing a long post.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
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  #86  
Old 09-08-2011, 02:09 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Make sure you click the "remember me" box when you log on, or you'll get timed out when composing a long post.
Also, sometimes you can hit the "Back" button on the browser and your message will still be there to copy and re-login to paste.
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  #87  
Old 09-11-2011, 03:36 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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I didn't think of her nickname as a derogatory, but now I see what you're saying, Mag, and I agree maybe it was subconscious. I wanted her to be either a plaything, or a sister wife. She has become something I never anticipated!!! I should have seen this coming, I guess. I did not consider Sundance's history!!! He's never operated from an honesty perspective with women -- UNTIL he met and married me. He was extremely relieved to put those days behind him forever. He was truly, genuinely in love with me. I believe I was really his first true love.

Then I shattered him, by having an affair. Instead of focusing on my own family and my own problems, I got sucked into the problems of my neighbors. It was a bizarre mix of compassion, loneliness, and EGO that led me to begin an affair with Butch. I was in denial about the second two -- I only identified the compassion. Which helped me to justify it.

I can love more than one person at a time. But I don't think I can juggle this lifestyle any longer. Talk about "turnabout."
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  #88  
Old 09-12-2011, 02:35 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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Ended it with Butch this morning. I'm ok.
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  #89  
Old 09-12-2011, 02:38 PM
MichelleZed MichelleZed is offline
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Sorry to hear that, Carma.

Let us know how things go with Sundance.
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  #90  
Old 09-12-2011, 02:58 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Glad to hear you're ok.
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