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  #221  
Old 10-13-2011, 12:23 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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I wish Sundance would have come here to post so you could get a better perspective. Now I feel by exposing him I have betrayed him and if he won't defend himself, that makes me the monster. When I'm upset about things, naturally I'm not mentioning much of the good things he does, right?

Well, he is NOT defenseless -- he chooses not to participate here. Which makes me really disappointed. It also makes me think -- he is much more interested in his new love affair with Barbie than in preserving our marriage. Even though he says the exact opposite!

You'd think he'd at least be interested in what I have to say here.

I think he knows, he can manipulate me but he can't manipulate all of you! HA! I mean, facts are facts. He can't look deeply into any of your eyes or give you that cute smile to win you over. Surprisingly, though, he IS pretty good with words. I am actually pretty shocked he hasn't come here to write some damn convincing arguments for himself! But again -- I think he has other fish he is frying. Another fish, named "Barbie."

I believe our relationship had gotten abusive, no doubt. Of course, HE wouldn't think so. He thinks if he doesn't hit me, he's never hurt me.

"You teach people how to treat you." "It takes two to tango." I have no choice but to look at my part in the abuse. Did I play the victim? Was I passive-aggressive? Was I a doormat? Did I tolerate unacceptable behavior, then try and turn it around suddenly and expect his behavior to change on a dime? My behavior was not healthy, either. I think I have taken some good steps towards empowering myself. I have made the roommate decision, for one. And I'm trying to focus on being a better mom to my kids, instead of obsessing over what he's doing and what he's telling me all the time.

I have to admit, though, that I am grieving. I have had some very intense moments of longing for him, painful thoughts of the love we once had. I know sometimes you tend to grieve what you THOUGHT you had, whether it was "real" or not. You grieve the dream you once had. I miss the romantic side of him. I miss our friendship -- that is one thing I am hoping may return. But I am sad to think that the trust was so destroyed, we will probably never be lovers or real husband and wife again. There is a lot of pain in losing that, even when it turned into something unhealthy. I am sad to think that Barbie may turn him into the man I wished he would be -- then she will be the one having him. But that is selfish. If she can help him heal, help him be healthier, help him to be a better man, how can I begrudge either of them that? I will fight the bitterness. It's not worth it. I want what's best for him, even if it isn't me. And even if that hurts like hell.
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  #222  
Old 10-13-2011, 04:36 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
I wish Sundance would have come here to post so you could get a better perspective. Now I feel by exposing him I have betrayed him and if he won't defend himself, that makes me the monster.
Monster? Jeez, please take it easier on yourself.

Quote:
When I'm upset about things, naturally I'm not mentioning much of the good things he does, right?
The bad outweighs the good, at this point.

Quote:
Well, he is NOT defenseless -- he chooses not to participate here. Which makes me really disappointed. It also makes me think -- he is much more interested in his new love affair with Barbie than in preserving our marriage. Even though he says the exact opposite!
Yes, he's lying, again.


Quote:
I think he knows, he can manipulate me but he can't manipulate all of you! HA! I mean, facts are facts. He can't look deeply into any of your eyes or give you that cute smile to win you over.
Yup.

Quote:

"You teach people how to treat you." ...I think I have taken some good steps towards empowering myself. I have made the roommate decision, for one. And I'm trying to focus on being a better mom to my kids, instead of obsessing over what he's doing and what he's telling me all the time.
Excellent!
Quote:
I have to admit, though, that I am grieving... I know sometimes you tend to grieve what you THOUGHT you had, whether it was "real" or not. You grieve the dream you once had. ...we will probably never be lovers or real husband and wife again. There is a lot of pain in losing that, even when it turned into something unhealthy.
Yes, it hurts like hell. But that is life, and marriage. People change and grow. The facades also fall off, the scales fall from your eyes, you see him as he really is, not as the macho don juan charmer he pretends to be, him with his perfect hair and abs! Bleh. I'd rather have an authentic trustworthy man with a bit of a potbelly and a bald head.

Quote:
I am sad to think that Barbie may turn him into the man I wished he would be --
That's just your insecurity again. Barbie still sees the facade! She sees the handsome charmer, not the insecure lying abuser. No one can change someone else. If he didn't change while he was with you, I sincerely doubt he will change with her. He's lying to her as much as he's lying to you.

What a sad sad man.

Quote:
I want what's best for him, even if it isn't me. And even if that hurts like hell.
Carma, I want what's best for YOU. And it isn't him!
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me: Mags, female, pansexual, 59, loving and living with
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  #223  
Old 10-13-2011, 04:40 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
I'd rather have an authentic trustworthy man with a bit of a potbelly and a bald head.
I do actually look for bald, pot-bellied guys like that.
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An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #224  
Old 10-13-2011, 08:20 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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I have never been with a guy who looks this good before -- it's never been my thing, either! Most of the guys I've loved were kinda nerdy, or skinny. All I wanted was for Sundance to be REAL. But he was obsessed with his looks. It takes so much of his time! I was jealous of his routines! He didn't need another woman, really. I always felt second best, anyway. It made me sad for him, that he could never relax and be casual. The clothes, the grooming, the working out, the sit-ups, the diet. I am exhausted FOR him. And sorry he missed out on a woman who could have really loved the man underneath all of that shiny facade. I told him so, all the time. But he couldn't hear me. I guess he needs someone who is impressed by that image. Who will really appreciate him.
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  #225  
Old 10-13-2011, 08:21 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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Thanks for the support, friends.
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  #226  
Old 10-14-2011, 01:05 PM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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Originally Posted by Carma View Post
I have never been with a guy who looks this good before -- it's never been my thing, either! Most of the guys I've loved were kinda nerdy, or skinny. All I wanted was for Sundance to be REAL. But he was obsessed with his looks. It takes so much of his time! I was jealous of his routines! He didn't need another woman, really. I always felt second best, anyway. It made me sad for him, that he could never relax and be casual. The clothes, the grooming, the working out, the sit-ups, the diet. I am exhausted FOR him. And sorry he missed out on a woman who could have really loved the man underneath all of that shiny facade. I told him so, all the time. But he couldn't hear me. I guess he needs someone who is impressed by that image. Who will really appreciate him.
Wow. I dated one of these types in university. I completely understand what you mean. And he expected me to be the same as him ...

Granted the sex was great, probably why it took me so long to see the light.
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  #227  
Old 10-14-2011, 04:24 PM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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Carma, I'm just tossing this out there, but you might want to take a look at some info on ADHD. I'm just seeing a lot of stuff in what you describe about Sundance that reminds me of some people I know.

It may not have anything to do with your situation... but I had to at least suggest it.

I recommend Melissa Orlov's site http://www.adhdmarriage.com/ for an overview.

(((Hugs))))

Take care of youse.
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  #228  
Old 10-14-2011, 08:04 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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I've wondered many times if he has ADHD. One therapist said he wasn't -- that he just had too much on his plate, was trying to juggle too many things. I see him like he's on a hamster wheel, all the time, and he can't/won't get off for long. He's like stir-crazy. He hasn't read a book (People magazine doesn't count, right?) in 13 years. Then again -- he can sit out in the sun doing absolutely nothing for four hours straight on a Saturday, just to get a tan....

Thanks for the link, M, I'm going to read it.

I can't believe I never made a dent in the obsession over his looks. I have spent 13 years trying! What a waste. He didn't care what I thought. It was all about what HE thought -- that his appearance had to come first. I thought he'd relax, once he realized I loved him.

HOW long does it take to accept that you can't change people? Am I a slow learner, or what. I sure feel like I was wasting time. If I can't love the body almighty, and stop pressing him to strengthen his mind and his intellect, then I'm not part of his program, at all. He's smart, too, so it's really frustrating. He had so much potential!

I feel so sorry for him.

But maybe I should be glad for him. He's barely speaking to me. Maybe he's relieved to be free to find someone who will.... love the facade?? What??? No, I'm sad. I KNOW he's more than just a pretty face, great hair and a rocking body. There's a real person in there. Damn.
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  #229  
Old 10-15-2011, 02:53 AM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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And there you go again, Carma, beating yourself up!
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The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #230  
Old 10-15-2011, 02:12 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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It's frustrating! I'm not really good at accepting that I am POWERLESS. I am in 12-step, so I should be getting this, right?!

I'm struggling with the new way we are relating. The roommate thing is healthier for us right now. But it feels so weird sometimes. Before Barbie ("B.B."!) we used to talk and text quite a lot throughout the day. Now there is a lot of empty space, and silence, and when we do talk it can get pretty awkward.

I gave him a candy bar and a card for Sweetest Day -- nothing super romantic, but I wanted to acknowledge him. He IS still my husband, and a human being. It's weird, though, because we never really celebrated Sweetest Day, or even Valentine's Day, because we always treated each other with love, every day of the year. He was really romantic, actually. Used to bring me flowers at least once a week, or bring me coffee, gave me compliments, said "I love you" all the time. So I guess today I wanted to take the opportunity to say, "I still care about you, you know."

He said, "Oh, it's Sweetest Day?" I said, "Yeah, oh darn, did you forget to get something for your girlfriend?" He said, "I DON'T HAVE A GIRLFRIEND." WHY did I bring her up? Why do I get right back on that merry-go-round? I didn't have to be all snarky. I swear, it's like I was resentful he didn't take the opportunity to say, "I still care about YOU, you know," to ME. See how twisted my little brain can get -- ?! I'm so quick to jump on him. I'm looking for every little slight, to find "proof" that he cares for Barbie. All I have to go on is my imagination, because I don't really "know." Then I start to BELIEVE him. Ugh, the cycle.

He admits that he talks to her, so I do know that. I feel as long as he has contact with her, the chances he is still romantic with her are pretty good. The chances I'll still be suspicious are pretty high, too. The only thing that will show the truth is TIME.

In the meanwhile -- Barbie is not our only problem! His relationship with her is something that needs to run its course, whatever that may be, but we need to make some changes, anyway. So I have to focus more on the things we have been ignoring for years, and trying to act more responsibly and proactively in those areas.

I'm reading Codependent No More (which I swear I have already read, probably TWICE, but it's like all new all over again) and I'm attending 12-step meetings. And sharing here, because you all give me such terrific feedback and perspective, it's really awesome. I come here to get as real as I can get.

One thing Sundance said really struck me as ironic. He said, "I still talk to her, but we aren't together. She says she can see us together in the future..." Butch and I say we are together just for today, but we don't foresee a future together! We just live in the present, because really that's all we've got. I told Sundance that. I don't ever downplay my love for Butch. If I do, I'll just be living a lie again, and I don't have to live that way. But .... I can't turn off my love for Sundance, either. It's still there, underneath all the shit that's happened.

The card I gave Sundance said:
"Love isn't in the falling...
It's in the staying."

In spite of the unhealthy state of our relationship, I do still love him. And we're still married. Maybe we can rebuild something, out of friendship first. Maybe we can learn to respect each other. Maybe we can grow, individually, then grow together as a couple again. I don't know if any of that is possible, but just for today I think I can try to give him the space he needs, and use the space I need to get strong and healthy. I do love being together for our wonderful kids -- we both love that. Right now the best way to love Sundance is to love his (OUR) kids. So I'm going to pour it on them!

Reading back through this, I realize it sounds like we are always so serious with each other. I do have to say, we have some fantastic moments when we laugh at the situation and tease each other lightly, and it is terrific when that happens. Redpepper was encouraging someone on another post recently to have a sense of humor. She is so right on. The laughter cuts through a lot of stupid shit. Sometimes it's the laughter that shows me a glimmer of hope for us.

Life is good. Loving more is good. I'm glad to be just where I am, right now. I hope you all have a great day, too, my forum friends.
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