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  #211  
Old 10-11-2011, 06:15 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Thanks for clearing up the relationship stuff ....from the Butch and Sundance story I assumed they were friends first ....and thus he (sun) had to deal with the betrayal of his friend as well.

What is their relationship today??

What is Butch's take on all this ....or is he just glad to be getting some.

So you call it off with Butch and you explain your reasoning and it ends as friends ....then a week or so goes by and you call and say lets meet ....were back on .....and at this point whats he say?.....thank god you called I'm so horny ....or wait you said the last time your marriage was in the balance ...this could be a set up??or test?? maybe we should wait ....what ? Does he really care about your marriage??? in the sense he wants it to continue.



So Sun has clearly stated what he wants ...You in a mono relationship....but is that something you can ...or want to do. You ended it with Butch for week ?


This roommate situation is not going to bring anyone closer ...you know that right....

He flat out told you what he's going to look for....whether he'll be able to attract that is a different matter. And I actually might know what he's talking about .....the women that would be morally and socially compatible with him are going to steer clear of a guy with this type of baggage....that's my guess.....women may not want to invest time and heart only to be dumped for the guy going back to the wife who he's got the children with. I'm sure that's written about in every woman's magazine....cautionary tales.
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  #212  
Old 10-11-2011, 06:47 PM
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Talk about promiscuous! He's slept with thousands of women, he's shagging one now, and you aren't sure he's using condoms.

He's a narcissist. And a liar.

Oh dear lord.
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  #213  
Old 10-11-2011, 06:48 PM
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Dinged, You make it sound like Carma "only" gave it a week before she went back with Butch as if she had little willpower, fortitude, or dedication to her marriage. But remember, Sundance made a deal with her and went back on it. He said he would stop seeing Barbie if she stopped seeing Butch. Carma accepted, and broke it off with Butch. Sundance continued to see Barbie, which nullified the deal. Furthermore, he gave his okay:
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Originally Posted by Carma View Post
I stopped seeing Butch for one reason -- so Sundance would stop seeing Barbie. It didn't work -- he just stopped being honest!!!

He's still talking to her, alot, and sexy texting with her, and they tell each other "ILU" and "ILU2" at the end of their texts. And she came to his office and rubbed up against him. He admitted all this to me last night, and I was so happy he finally told me! I told him how much is honesty means to me.

He's been asking if I've seen Butch, and pretty much intimating that he would be ok if I did. Which I felt was a set-up, so I resisted. I felt he was just telling me to go so he could say, "Well, then I'm going to be with her again, and it's ALL YOUR FAULT." But he SAID "I'd be fine with it."

So today I met with Butch.
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  #214  
Old 10-11-2011, 07:27 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Cindie,

I didn't make it sound like anything....I was asking if this is something she is willing to do and wanted to do.....she had said before that her will power was a concern for her....and she recalled early in the affair making such promises and failed ....and that now she felt as if she was being tested....and that she hoped she wouldn't cave into temptation....and delivery from evil....sorry... that last part just seem to flow.

How can they negotiate any sort of arrangement if the top 2 sticking point are each others deal breaker.

Carma,

If he wanted to be mono with you ....then why did he continue with barbie....or is that going to get in the subjective shades of grey...part of bs lies you were told.
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  #215  
Old 10-11-2011, 07:54 PM
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The reason I said It was rhetorical is -- I'm sure you can write this one out.

He TOLD me he would use a condom.

Then when he described their second escapade..... I asked, "Sooo.... when exactly was the condom put on/taken off?" CLEARLY there wasn't one. He admitted there was not. And hadn't been the first time, either.

I should have known.

The next time I was with Butch, I brought a box of condoms. I told him Sundance was not using protection with her, and my safety had been compromised. If I was willing to risk my health,* that's my business but I wanted Butch to know there was a risk now.

We used the condom, but it ended up slipping off somewhere in the midst of our lovemaking. We felt like a couple of stupid teenagers. The next time Butch and I were together, he chose not to use one.

*I know, I know, I know. What Sundance did was terrible, and I am a fool to risk my own health. I know. I never mentioned it here on the Forum because I knew people would be disgusted with his behavior, and I should be ashamed that I didn't care enough about my own health to be more enraged. I was ashamed of him, and of me. A terrible example of irresponsible behavior, not at all like the loving way of polyamory. But it was more than that -- I was in denial. I didn't want to admit that I am not safe with him.

I'm also in denial that I should go get tested. I guess I'm just hoping no symptoms appear.

I must say it is a HUGE relief not to be sharing with his girlfriend anymore -- a complete stranger, who he says is sleeping with at least 2 other guys besides him! (He may be lying about this, I don't know. To make me think she isn't all that into him, that they really aren't all that close, after all. Stupid, though, because either way, he loses! Either they are exclusive, and he's lying to me about it, or she is exposing him to all kinds of shit I don't want brought back to me, or Butch!)

I guess I also accept that sex is never going to be risk-free unless you are EXTREMELY vigilant. At the very least, I was honest with Butch about the risk involved. I wonder why he didn't ask me to stop sleeping with Sundance??

Which leads to Dinged's questions about Butch's reactions (or lack thereof!) to my decisions regarding Sundance. I guess he feels he has no rights, that this is what he signed up for. He saw us at our best; he has always believed in our marriage and wanted us to be together in the end. Whenever I share my distress with him over something Sundance has done, he always helps me try and see it from Sundance's perspective. I think his biggest fear is that HE will be blamed if we break up. So he's trying to avoid that - ? AND -- I think he doesn't want to see my kids go through a divorce, like his did.

My feelings for Butch have obviously compromised my marriage, no doubt about that. But Sundance AND I have some deep-seated issues that are contributing to how this all played out. I don't believe you can blame a third person.

I am embarrassed to send this reply. I know most people are really adamant about safe sex practices. I guess a part of me feels like I'll get what I deserve, for trusting him, for pretending I'm not at risk, for encouraging him to sleep with someone else, for falling in love with another man and putting my husband in this position.... I reneged on our marriage contract, and even though polyamory sounded like a good solution, it wasn't good for Sundance, at all. If I get something, it's pretty much a payback, I guess. Then again, there are VIRUSES out there. I'm not going to live my life like some kind of germophobe. Maybe it's not that I "deserve" to get anything -- but I've seen innocent people get things, too, so I feel it's just a part of life unless you are celibate.

Okay, I'm going to submit and take the wrath.
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  #216  
Old 10-11-2011, 08:08 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
I'm also in denial that I should go get tested. I guess I'm just hoping no symptoms appear.
What would you say and do if your kid came to you with this story? That kid would be tested already, that's what.

Time to put on the big girl panties and take care of business!!! Go get tested IMMEDIATELY!

Being embarrassed is understandable, ignoring reality is not. No more denial shit, your an adult with KIDS that depend on you, go take care of business.
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  #217  
Old 10-11-2011, 08:09 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
I was asking if this is something she is willing to do and wanted to do.....she had said before that her will power was a concern for her....and she recalled early in the affair making such promises and failed ....and that now she felt as if she was being tested....and that she hoped she wouldn't cave into temptation...

If he wanted to be mono with you ....then why did he continue with barbie....or is that going to get in the subjective shades of grey...part of bs lies you were told.
EXACTLY what I was wondering!!!! He told me he wasn't continuing with her, yet he was talking to her still (he did admit to this, and even that they'd done some "sexting") and she came into his office. He insists they didn't have sex but I didn't believe him, the way he was so cavalier about asking, "So, did you meet with Butch today?" as if it were no big deal if I had!

I was not tempted, actually. When I ended it with Butch, I was prepared to grieve. I was committed to ending it, because I was going through so much hell with Sundance. I didn't want to share him with a stranger; he didn't want me to meet her. FINE, then poly is out! I was willing to do anything to get Sundance to stop lying to me, to get him to feel safe enough with me to be honest about things.

After 2 weeks of him still talking to her daily ("about work," he'd say, but I did not believe him) I did feel he nullified the deal. Going back was not about caving in to temptation, as it had always been in the past -- this time it was a conscious decision.

His office is too far away, and he has told me too many little white (and big dark!) lies throughout this affair with her, for me to ever trust him again, as long as he works there.
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  #218  
Old 10-11-2011, 08:18 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
His office is too far away, and he has told me too many little white (and big dark!) lies throughout this affair with her, for me to ever trust him again, as long as he works there.
The where is not the issue, even the fact that they work together is not the issue. The fact that it's 2 hours away just makes it more difficult to check up on him (not impossible). If he really wanted to, he could work 5 minutes away and still find away to lie and cheat or he could work 3 states away and be completely honest and faithful. Don't confuse your ability to trust him with your ability to check up on him.

Last edited by SNeacail; 10-11-2011 at 08:22 PM.
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  #219  
Old 10-11-2011, 08:20 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Oh, Carma. Everything you just wrote made my blood turn to ice and my chest get tight. Unprotected sex with a woman he doesn't really know well and who he says is promiscuous? What if you got AIDs? Symptoms don't show up for years, she could easily have it and not know.

How would you tell your kids why they were losing their mom? What if Butch got it too and it tipped his already delicate condition over the edge and he died because of it? What if you didn't know what you had... AIDs, hepatitis... and one of your kids was in an accident and needed an emergency transfusion, no time to test, and you told them to use your blood? What if you gave one of your children a death-sentence disease?

How can you not get tested?
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  #220  
Old 10-12-2011, 08:01 AM
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rory rory is offline
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I've been reading your posts for a while but haven't commented because it just raises such emotions in me, it comes too close to what I've experienced, although not in my adult relationships but with my (non-biological) mother.

You do realise you're married to a lying, manipulative person? What he does to you is emotional violence. And you're acting just like so many victims of abuse: you're blaming yourself for everything. You're not only taking responsibility of your own actions (as you should), but taking responsibility for all that happens. Your finding fault in yourself for the things he does, too. You're still often writing as if all your current problems are due to you screwing up in the first place (by falling for and doing things with Butch). That's what being around an abuser will do to you..

It's good that you've come here and got support, but it's not enough. Do you have any help for women in abusive relationships in your area? Somewhere you could visit, or call? These are not poly problems, but problems in your marriage. I'm afraid that you won't be rid of all his manipulation at least as long as he's living with you (although I think separate bedrooms is a VERY GOOD idea, to start with).

I know we're only getting one side of the story, but there are so many alarm bells going off in my head that I can't even count them.
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