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  #201  
Old 10-09-2011, 03:35 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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It's so ironic. Five years ago, Sundance suspected I had feelings for Butch. He broke into my locked briefcase, to read my private journals. I had written a few things down, that I had a secret crush.
(I freaked out, that he had invaded my privacy. Felt emotionally raped. But..... he had suspicions, that were not entirely imagined, so I SORT OF figured it was "justified," right?)
I admitted to the feelings. But I promised not to act on them, and I reassured Sundance that I loved him and wanted our marriage.

After that, Sundance started snooping through everything he could find, everything I wrote down. He was obsessed! He wanted to know what was in my head, in my heart. He was devastated to think I had feelings for anyone but him. I was equally devastated that he kept invading my privacy.

My friendship with Butch progressed and deepened and eventually crossed over into a mutual emotional affair, then stolen physical moments of hugging and kissing, then a blow job. Sundance suspected all along. But I downplayed my involvement. Then Sundance hid audio tapes in our house, and heard us on tape.

(Again, I was freaked out that he had spied on me and taped me, but this time I figured, he was really justified).

I confessed. I said I love you, Sundance, I want to stay married to you. I will stop with him. I fought my feelings, and there were stretches of months where I stayed away from Butch. I would journal through my feelings, hoping to get them out, hoping they would go away. I journal to get honest with myself -- I HAD to, for my sanity. Sundance would still read my journals, all the time. I would hide them, he would find them. I would rip things up. I was a paranoid wreck.

After months of trying, and fighting, I broke my promise, AGAIN. Sundance taped me again. And caught us again, early on.

Finally, I admitted -- I was in love with Butch, and I couldn't help myself, and I was not going to stop. But I loved Sundance and wanted our family to stay together. So .... we agreed to a V, and I found this forum!

After we agreed to poly -- I found tapes hidden under my bed. Sundance was secretly taping Butch and I, having sex! Even after we had all agreed to it, and we were being 100% honest! I thought it was just because he was getting an erotic, voyeuristic thrill -- which was partly his motive. But he was also scared that we were lying to him -- that we were secretly plotting to run off together.

Once he realized (from spying on us and listening to the tapes) that we were being 100% honest, that we weren't planning to run off, AND I FREAKED OUT ON HIM FOR SPYING ON ME, after he SWORE AND SWORE AND SWORE he wasn't doing it anymore..... he stopped.

Ironic then, that he hardly gives TWO SHITS now about what I blog here. He is only interested in the things I want to hide. He is only interested in my SECRETS. Kind of creepy.

Then again, now look who's being paranoid, suspicious, and all obsessed with HIS true feelings? Yeah, me. I'm creepy, too.
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Last edited by Carma; 10-09-2011 at 03:39 PM.
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  #202  
Old 10-10-2011, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma
I might be able to forgive. To understand "why" he lies, to empathize with his fear. But can I live with it? . . . do I love him, or the man I thought he was? How much of the true Sundance do I really know, to love? And again -- just because you love someone, doesn't always mean you can live with them . . . Who am I to withhold forgiveness??? . . . But by his lying, isn't he abandoning me, in a way? . . . I HAVE forgiven him, time and time and time again. I have chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt, and he has exploited that benefit. I have enabled him. I have helped to perpetuate his habitual lying. I have done no one any real favors.
Yes, you can forgive someone and still make a choice not to tolerate that behavior. Forgiving is the ability to have compassion, to acknowledge the hurting that person has inside them, and to let go of resentment. You can forgive him, but not being willing to tolerate that shit anymore is for YOU. But then you have to forgive yourself as well. I have a feeling that is the more difficult thing for you to do, Carma. But you have to have compassion for yourself. Sundance has abandoned you in many ways, and you have abandoned yourself, too, by pooh-poohing your own needs, mistrusting your own desires, and not standing up for yourself. If you do walk away, it could be very empowering, and it doesn't mean that you don't have compassion and forgiveness for Sundance if you do. In fact, it could be a very loving thing to do. But I would try and see if there is anything to salvage first, with the help of professionals. Maybe there is some low-cost or free counseling to be had in your locality? Either way, I know you have the strength to face whatever comes.
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"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #203  
Old 10-10-2011, 06:10 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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I thought that you had moved to a roommate type relationship .... in a temp.. short term ...space finding way.

Forgiveness for each others past lies and behavior is good and recommended for a healthy marriage but may not be required for this roommate arrangement.....perhaps a simple acknowledgement and move on.
Your lies and deception ...blowing his friend, etc, ...all in the name of love doesn't make it right....his behavior, lies and deception regarding his intentions or feeling toward Barbie as some kind of pay back also isn't right...and doesn't make what he's did right.

Is he going back in time and bringing up old lies and past grievances or is your mind spinning to make sense out of things???

Time to get proactive I think.
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  #204  
Old 10-10-2011, 06:26 PM
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Is he going back in time and bringing up old lies and past grievances or is your mind spinning to make sense out of things???

Time to get proactive I think.
This is a good question. I will pass on some of what I learned in counceling. If stuff is continually being thrown out/brought up during an argument, then the issue is still a topic that needs to be discussed and dealt with. You guys need to have a serious discussion about it and what can be done to move into forgiveness.
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  #205  
Old 10-11-2011, 04:08 PM
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I guess it's a bit of both. I felt blindsided, after we had agreed to be a V and yet he still brings up what happened before AND ties it in with after, expressing contempt for me fucking another man. One of his most frequent comments is, "I don't LIKE it; I TOLERATE it." But in the beginning, there was a lot of compersion, at least I felt there was.

As for "blowing he friend" -- a little background on the guys' friendship, in a nutshell: Butch was our neighbor, but he and Sundance were both only the "hi neighbor" type. We'd get together for family picnics and visit in each other's yards, but they were just polite with one another. They are both loners. Butch has colleagues and college friends he golfs with or goes out for a beer; Sundance does not have ONE SINGLE close male friend. The only thing that made these two men friends, is ME. Sundance came to see what I see in Butch. And we both have an immense amount of sympathy for all the hardships he has endured the past 3 years -- lost his profession, got divorced, and was diagnosed with a serious heart condition (only 20% heart function )

Anyway, I feel like Sundance wants monogamy, and he is fucking pissed. He wants it with ME, not Barbie. He said the other day, "The problem is, if we live like roommates, but we're still technically married, I will not attract the caliber of woman I would want to be with. I will have to settle for women like Barbie, who sleep around, and with married men." I can see where he's coming from. But if he would have let me meet her right from the start, he could have been honest with her. He could have even asked HER for fidelity, even! At this point, he is NOT sleeping with me, so he could be monogamous with her, and ask her if she'd be willing to do the same.

I have no idea what he and she actually do talk about, so who knows, maybe this conversation has in fact taken place between them. But to ME, he says she is promiscuous. And flighty. Scatterbrained. Not really the girl for him. But I guess he's settling - ? And mad as hell about that!?

Going from lovers to roommates isn't the smoothest process. I think we are both struggling with it. There is mourning going on. And right now, we're both resentful of each other, blaming each other for the break-up of our marriage. I say, it wasn't either of our "fault" -- it was the relationship and our life's circumstances that weren't working. Who knows what will develop in the future. At least we're not moving our kids into some shitty little apartment or something.

I did tell Sun that unless he looks for a job closer to home, I don't see much hope for a real marriage again. He lives a split life. (We can't move there). I will always suspect he is with Barbie up there, and have no way of "checking up" on him. I'm not going to be the little fool back home. If he wants to be honest and have her up there and me here, she and I meet and respect each other's place in his life, that's one thing (but he has proven he can't really do that). Otherwise, we are roomies. Or he moves out.

He said he will NOT leave his home or his kids. He says if I want out I will have to leave. Well, for now I'm staying put. As long as I don't have to force myself to be sugary sweet or romantic with him, I'll be okay. I can be pleasant, as long as he respects me and our boundaries.
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  #206  
Old 10-11-2011, 04:15 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
If you do walk away, it could be very empowering, and it doesn't mean that you don't have compassion and forgiveness for Sundance if you do. In fact, it could be a very loving thing to do.
There is an AWESOME song by Marie Digby called, "There's a Beauty in Walking Away." I don't know how to post a link, but it's worth checking out.
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  #207  
Old 10-11-2011, 04:37 PM
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ISundance does not have ONE SINGLE close male friend. The only thing that made these two men friends, is ME.
This is not good. He needs male friends!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
Anyway, I feel like Sundance wants monogamy, and he is fucking pissed. He wants it with ME, not Barbie. He said the other day, "The problem is, if we live like roommates, but we're still technically married, I will not attract the caliber of woman I would want to be with. I will have to settle for women like Barbie, who sleep around, and with married men." I can see where he's coming from. But if he would have let me meet her right from the start, he could have been honest with her.
Ugh, two things: Did you SAY the bolded part to him or did you keep it to yourself again?

Also, SD's comment about the caliber of women and who dates a married man really says a lot about his attitudes about women in general (hello, madonna/whore complex much?) and that also speaks to what he really feels about polyamory. I bet that's why he never told her about his having your consent to date. I suspect that somehow, his being okay with it all (for the period it was all working) just got to be too much for him because he has his prejudices and societal programming to wrestle with about monogamy, what marriage is supposed to be, and what a "good woman" or "good wife" is. Was he raised Catholic?

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Originally Posted by Carma View Post
. . . he says she is promiscuous.
This sounds like another dig at the kind of woman who is independent and owns her sense of sexual freedom. Anyway, did he use condoms with her?
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/

Last edited by nycindie; 10-11-2011 at 04:40 PM.
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  #208  
Old 10-11-2011, 04:48 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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Sundance's father was abusive AND a philanderer. His mother was the perfect victim.

I was the Catholic one! Hahaha!

You are sooo right on, Cin!

His dad's abuse made him close himself off to men. But Sundance slept with literally THOUSANDS of women, his entire life until he met and married me.

Yes, I did mention to him that if he'd been honest with her at the beginning, this could have gone differently.

Oh please don't make me answer that last question. It WAS rhetorical, right?
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  #209  
Old 10-11-2011, 04:56 PM
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Oh please don't make me answer that last question. It WAS rhetorical, right?
Um, nope. I wasn't asking for you to give me the answer, though. I do hope you and he discussed it and you know the answer. And if he either wouldn't tell you or you don't believe he did, then that's reason enough not to be having sex right now, until you two get tested. I'm sure you and Butch play safely?
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
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  #210  
Old 10-11-2011, 04:59 PM
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SNeacail SNeacail is offline
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Anyway, did he use condoms with her?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
Oh please don't make me answer that last question. It WAS rhetorical, right?
I doubt it was rhetorical, sounds like a reasonable question to me, especially with all the lying that's been going on.
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