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  #191  
Old 10-05-2011, 04:38 PM
MichelleZed MichelleZed is offline
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You're making a good number of assumptions about how your husband and how his girlfriend feels. He hasn't told you any of this, you're just sort of getting the feeling he feels this way. It's true he's not telling you anything, but you've also asked him not to tell you anything. I'm a bit confused.
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  #192  
Old 10-05-2011, 05:13 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
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You're making a good number of assumptions about how your husband and how his girlfriend feels. He hasn't told you any of this, you're just sort of getting the feeling he feels this way. It's true he's not telling you anything, but you've also asked him not to tell you anything. I'm a bit confused.


Me too. I can't follow this anymore; it gives me a headache. Good luck to you and i hope you find a way to work things out and move forward with your lives.
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  #193  
Old 10-05-2011, 09:32 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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I know, the old saying: When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

Dishonesty bites.

Inviting him to talk is only opening my ears and my heart to more possible lies. That scares me. I am not sure I can risk trusting him again.

Neon, my life gives me a headache too.
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  #194  
Old 10-05-2011, 09:46 PM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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I know, the old saying: When you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME.

Dishonesty bites.

Inviting him to talk is only opening my ears and my heart to more possible lies. That scares me. I am not sure I can risk trusting him again.

Neon, my life gives me a headache too.
I do kind of see you running in circles with this... and I do understand it some, I think, because I've spun in those circles as well.

I don't have a lot of advice to offer, but I do have a little.

Stop.

You need to stop spinning things around in your head because it's not getting you anywhere and you're only spinning your emotions in circles and that inevitably comes out in actions we usually regret.

I've been reading some Tara Brach (radical acceptance), but also listening to her audio talks she has on her website www.tarabrach.com. For ME, this has helped me immensely to stop the circles of obsessive thinking, of worrying about things that haven't happened yet, or what COULD be, etc. It also helps me get in touch with what I'm really feeling, and helps me just sit with that for a while.

And secondly, if you haven't already, you need to express to Sundance, calmly, that you no longer trust him. That because of that, you don't feel affectionate toward him because you feel it's a "play" or a "lie"-- whether or not it IS that-- that's how you feel based on his actions. That until he figures out what's going on with himself and can come to the relationship honestly--however that turns out-- you no longer want to play the games and dance the dance of "I love you go away". That you will be cordial and respectful, but affection is going to have to be put on pause until honesty comes to join it.

And then you need to leave him to his shit and take care of your own.

My experience (limited as it is) is that if you refrain from "feeding" into the craziness, it doesn't have quite as much gas and doesn't go quite as far. Without you playing your part, he will only have his own part (and hers) to work with.

Take care of yourself.
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  #195  
Old 10-06-2011, 01:38 PM
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And secondly, if you haven't already, you need to express to Sundance, calmly, that you no longer trust him. That because of that, you don't feel affectionate toward him because you feel it's a "play" or a "lie"-- whether or not it IS that-- that's how you feel based on his actions. That until he figures out what's going on with himself and can come to the relationship honestly--however that turns out-- you no longer want to play the games and dance the dance of "I love you go away". That you will be cordial and respectful, but affection is going to have to be put on pause until honesty comes to join it.
Hey Minx, maybe you were in my head -- or my bed -- last night?!? This is so close to what I said to him last night!!! This morning I feel so much better. We had a pretty good talk. He didn't sleep a wink, was tossing and turning all night, and I felt really bad for him. Finally I reached over and put my hand on his arm. We had a gentle conversation.

Actually a lot of our problems stem from him working 2 hours away from home (Barbie lives by his work, and is an associate of the company) and he is trying to live two lives and keep everyone happy while he is being split in two! And this has been going on for 12 years! I confessed that a big part of me wanted him to fall in love with Barbie and either have 2 wives, one here and one up there, or just go be with her, and get the kids as often as he can.

The problem is, he didn't fall in love with her.

Ok, part of me is disappointed, the other part relieved. She wasn't right for him, or for us. She is, however, still calling him and talking to him all the time, but he said he has become more like a therapist for her. He likes that, but he says she has far too many problems for him to get tangled up in her life. He said last Friday (that late night) was actually a disaster -- she took him to a football game in her home town, it rained the whole time, her daughter rode with them in the car and texted her friends the whole time (so he wasn't "bonding" with her -- again, I am not sure if I'm glad about that, or disappointed, for him -- do I wish the daughter would have been enamored with him? Well -- if he's not so crazy about the mother, then I think it was good that she was a rude little teenager!), Barbie's parents were at the game and he felt they gave him a bit of the cold shoulder because they know he's married with children, and he ended up dropping her and the daughter at her house and then driving 2 hours in the rain back home to a pissed off wife! I asked him why he didn't call or text to tell me he was on his way, and he apologized, and said he just felt shitty about the whole thing, wanted time to evaporate and just be home.

I pretty much believe him. Would you?

Well now we're back to, how do you have a marriage when you're gone so much, and by the time you do get home, you're exhausted from the commute? Then he goes to work out at the gym 4 times a week!

He agreed that some changes need to be made. It was good, because I wasn't blaming all our problems on HIM, it's our circumstances that make things especially bad. He is just stretched way too thin. Unfortunately, the job market sucks so bad right, now, it's not going to be easy to find a job closer to home. But he said he'll start thinking of some options.

And he was nice about my relationship with Butch again. Which is really cool. The past week or so I have shared some of my angst with Butch, over Sundance and his relationship with this girl, his dishonesty and my fears and suspicions. Butch never wavers in his advocacy for Sundance. He tries to put himself in Sun's shoes, and although he does not condone some of his behavior, he helps me consider things from a different perspective. He validates my feelings, but at the same time encourages me to be forgiving and understanding. I swear, I don't know how he does that!!! He totally loves me, and Sundance, and wants us to get along and stay married. He is definitely on the team -- when he could have easily said, "He's not the man I thought he was, wow, you should leave him (and i can have you all to myself!)" He never did that. He truly believes Sundance loves me. I think he really cares about what's best for me. And his ego does not trick him into thinking it's him! The same as I keep in mind that someday he may want a girl all his own, to be out of the closet with, and I will have to keep my ego out of it and want what's best for him, too.

In the meantime, I guess things have leveled off a bit. Thank you forum friends, for putting up with my Chicken Little routine! Apparently, the sky has not fallen.
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  #196  
Old 10-06-2011, 02:43 PM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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In your bed, huh?

I'm glad to hear that you two had a good talk. It's amazing what a little communication will do (when both sides are participating honestly!)

Maybe I related a bit more because hubs and I have gone through some of this dishonesty/trust stuff in our past. In the end, he was never TRYING to be dishonest, he just would panic or not really know what he was thinking, etc etc. Spun himself around a lot, needlessly, because he didn't stop and think, or communicate with me. It took a lot of time, and trust on his part, to finally realize opening up and being honest is MUCH easier. Part of that was me creating a safe space for him to be open, so not freaking out when he is honest.

I think that's why I thought about you working on your own happiness (contentedness?), because for me that helps so much with being able to be open, honest, loving and respectful for those around you-- even when they are reacting and confused and emotional and spinning around.

Tara talks about a story, where you go up to a dog to pet it and it snarls at you and snaps. The feeling you feel when that happens. Then you look down and realize the dog's foot is caught in a trap. So you start to see why the dog snapped-- it wasn't about you, it was because it was hurting and in pain. And in some way all of us have a foot in the trap.

Job situations suck!! Hubs is in the military and he's gone off and on for long periods of time, and it does tend to play some havoc with our connecting big time, so I totally get that. Maybe trying to just make sure of having some individual alone time together on the weekends where you can talk and hold hands and connect and stuff. That helps us a lot.

And Butch sounds like a pretty decent guy. And communicator! LOL
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  #197  
Old 10-09-2011, 02:41 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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Another thing, our bank account got overdrawn and we are really, really broke right now. He said Saturday morning, "Oh, I borrowed $100 from [my secretary at work], so I got some food." Ok, am I supposed to be stupid? I HIGHLY DOUBT he borrowed that money from his secretary; he borrowed it from Barbie. Now, I realize he's afraid that telling me that might make me mad. But I am a nice person, I really am. I've been open to bringing her "on our team." I could have appreciated that she helped us out -- instead, I'm put in a position of resentment, because he can't trust ME enough to just tell me the truth and allow me to feel appreciative towards her. He tries to make me look like a crazy psycho. I'm not. I'm angry with him for lying. Ok, and yes -- when someone lies to me, I do feel like I'm going insane!

(And I did get really nasty. I said, "I know it wasn't your secretary, it was Barbie. What, she's paying you to fuck her??" I know that wasn't a very nice thing to say, it just came out. I'm mad about him lying, and I'm mad about him downplaying their relationship. Can't he just say, "She loves me, she cares about me and our family and she wanted to help out?" I wish I hadn't gotten snotty. I wish I could have said, "Oh, she must really love you, and care about our family. How sweet of her." But I was too clouded with anger over the stupid lie. )
He finally admitted, he didn't get the money from his secretary. He said he didn't get it from Barbie, either. Supposedly it came from an account at work....(I won't go into the details). He lied to me when it would have much better served him to tell the truth. The stupid thing is, I knew he was lying, I just guessed the wrong truth. Then he accused ME of being paranoid!!! How often have I been the fool? How many times do I believe things he's said, when really it's been a lie? How many times have I been scammed by this man? How many lies he tells to cover up lies he's already told - LAYERS. I want to trust him, but how can I? This particular lie may or may not have had anything to do with Barbie, but it has everything to do with his patterns of dishonesty.

"Little white" lies -- or big lies? I fear they are all across the board. How many lies have gone undetected? How many times have I felt something just didn't add up, but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt, and let it go? He certainly has never come to me and said, "I have a confession to make...." and I'm talking, big OR small.

I might be able to forgive. To understand "why" he lies, to empathize with his fear. But can I live with it?

I'm afraid I'm just waiting for the last straw.

With my ex, I waited toooooooo long. I was looking for justification for leaving, for breaking my family apart. Funny, because the fact that I knew in my heart walking up the aisle that I did not love him -- wasn't reason enough for me. Now here I am, with someone I love. Well -- do I love him, or the man I thought he was? How much of the true Sundance do I really know, to love? And again -- just because you love someone, doesn't always mean you can live with them.

I have to guard my sanity.

And then I feel horrible, because he admitted the lie to me, in a moment when we were getting along and he must have felt "safe." He must have trusted, that I would forgive him. Who am I to withhold forgiveness???

Then again, how can he forgive HIMSELF???

How can he live like this? Maybe he needs to be with someone who is also a little shady, who won't put such a high value on honesty -- ? Maybe Barbie really is that girl, and he is disgusted with himself, for not being "good enough" for me. Well, it's not a matter of "good enough;" it's a matter of healthy behavior. I can't afford to live a life of sickness and twisted truth. Maybe I'm actually just too broken and fragile, myself.
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  #198  
Old 10-09-2011, 02:48 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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Ugh. "If you lie to me, I will abandon you."

Is this what I am saying?

But by his lying, isn't he abandoning me, in a way?

And then I think, wait a minute here -- I HAVE forgiven him, time and time and time again. I have chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt, and he has exploited that benefit. I have enabled him. I have helped to perpetuate his habitual lying. I have done no one any real favors.
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  #199  
Old 10-09-2011, 02:52 PM
MichelleZed MichelleZed is offline
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It is a concern that he seems to be pretty irresponsible with money and then lies to cover it up. Your finances are tied together legally, and you have children, so this is very risky behaviour on his part.
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  #200  
Old 10-09-2011, 02:58 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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I know that couple's therapists has come up before, I think money was the barrier? It's a shame because if it weren't, I might suggest finding a really good, reputable person and then make his attendance at sessions a requirement of your continued involvement with him as a partner.

I know we're a poor substitute but you could also, if therapy isn't an option, require that he read all your most recent posts and post a detailed response here in which he addresses the issues you've been raising and how he would propose to proceed. At least maybe having to do that publicly would force him to confront his inconsistencies.
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