Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > Life stories and blogs

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #141  
Old 09-23-2011, 06:01 PM
MrFarFromRight's Avatar
MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ping-ponging around Europe, trying to get a publishing concern off the ground
Posts: 500
Default

Maybe I’m just projecting. I was with a wonderful woman, M, for 6 Ĺ years. I thought that every other man must be jealous of me for having landed such a prize. When she split up with me, we stayed “good” friends. With hindsight, I realise that this was largely due to the energy that I put into maintaining this friendship (while she occasionally accused me of “clinging to the past”, “not being mature enough to move on”). Some aspects of how wonderful she was:

x) Whenever things went really bad with her (things going skew-whiff in her life that had nothing to do with me), she’d dump on me (treat me like I was the BIG problem in her life). As she told me the day after one such dump (it usually took her until the next day to apologise): “I’ve got all this shit in me that I need to get rid of. And you’re the ONLY person I know who loves me so much that I trust that you’ll still love me even if I treat you like shit. So it all comes out in your direction. I’m sorry.” She was sorry, but that didn’t stop her doing it again and again. (I felt proud that she trusted me to this extent!)

y) The first time she went to a talk about AIDS (the talk was part of a conference to do with her job, and I was with another GF that weekend), she blew up with me for being irresponsible for having sex with the other woman without using a condom. (This was back in the very early days of AIDS, when we were all pretty clueless: She hadn’t had any worries BEFORE this weekend, hadn’t warned me not to have any un-safe sex.) I pointed out that I actually had been responsible (as far as I knew at the time), that I’d asked the other woman about her other relationships and that she’d told me that the last time that she’d had sex was 2 years earlier (and that time without fucking). I’d thought that that sounded pretty safe to me. So anyway, M insisted that we immediately both [M and I] have an AIDS test, and that from that point on, we have no sex without condom with any third parties. That seemed fine to me and I got my AIDS test as soon as possible. Here’s the hammer (as they say in Germany): as far as I know, she never – at least in the rest of our time together – got that AIDS test for herself. (And yes, she, too, had BFs on the side.)

z) After we split up, I was some kind of embarrassing dork (not immediately and not all the time, but at certain phases of her personal growth)... aside from when she needed me. [One example: Right after she’d split up with the father of her 2 children (VERY ugly split), her parents paid for a holiday on Corsica for herself and the children. Her parents were going to be on Corsica for an extra 2 weeks before M and the children showed up. She planned to drive down with another woman and that woman’s own child, but this woman dropped out. So then M ’phoned me and asked if I’d be willing to hitch (from Spain to Germany, over 1000km) to her place (she and her ex were still living under the same roof), get into the car with her and the children, and accompany them to the south of France, to the ferry terminal, where I was supposed to get out of the car and hitch back to my place in Spain. I asked if it wouldn’t be possible for me to show up a day or 2 before the drive through France (I’d need to catch up on sleep if I was going to be any good on the trip south) and also take part in that holiday: that it seemed a bit rough to me to do so much travelling just so that she’d have somebody to keep the children entertained while she was driving. (Also, I really liked her children, and thought that I might be supportive on the holiday.) Her mother ended up inviting me to a week of the 2-week holiday, as occasional babysitter, with all expenses (ferry + camping ground fees + food) paid. (I have also always liked M’s mother. And she me.) Small detail: While on Corsica, M – in awful pain after recent split with ex – was dumping heavily on me, and contaminated the way her children saw me.]

Two years ago, after an exchange of e-mails (I suggested a holiday together with the children / she treated me as if I’d just crawled out from under a stone), I finally accepted that there wasn’t even a friendship here. When I told mutual friends about my decision to let M slip out of my life, one of them (a mild-mannered person, who’d also been dumped on by M) exclaimed: “Well, it’s about time!”

Carma, I’m not suggesting that you drop SK. But I think you need to be realistic about just how wonderful he really is. It sounds to me like you’ve got (as I used to have) an inferiority complex and feel so happy/lucky to have this wonderful husband... who dumps shit on you. (And seems to do it on purpose.)

At the very least, the 3 of you (Etta, BC, SK) need to sit down and be really honest with each other. And you might need to see a poly-friendly, unbiased therapist.

I still think that you need to stop seeing Barbie as an enemy, rather as a fellow victim of SK’s irresponsible, unfeeling, egotistic behaviour.

[Of course I’d be more than willing to read SK’s slant on all this, and willing to revise my opinions in light of it. But I can only go on the testimony laid before me, and the above is how I’ve processed that testimony.]
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson

Last edited by MrFarFromRight; 09-23-2011 at 06:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 09-23-2011, 06:04 PM
MrFarFromRight's Avatar
MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ping-ponging around Europe, trying to get a publishing concern off the ground
Posts: 500
Default

A minor aspect, but I think you ought to think about this as well:
Quote:
[Barbie] buys [SK] gifts all the time. Every day he is coming home with something new. A key chain, a little plaque that says "to the world you might be just one person, but to one person, you just might be the world." A duffel bag, a mouse for his computer, some sea salt scrub. This time she brought a book for my kids. [...] [Butch] would never accept a little gift from me. [...] Interesting, Annabel, about the gift-giving. We have major issues in our marriage about spending (bigger than the scope of this forum, really!) Sundance buys EVERYTHING he needs. I never get a chance to find something he'd like, because he goes out and buys it, already! [...] Everything -- specific brands of hair products, food, sunglasses, shirts, etc., I mean, he will go out of his way to get something he needs and WILL NOT REST until he gets it. I think it's why I was drawn to Butch, who is the exact opposite, and much more like me -- deprives himself, delayed gratification, minimalist. I read the Languages of Love book, and the gift-giving thing is a language, but I'm not sure any of us is fluent in it, haha! There is an art, to giving, AND receiving gifts. I think the most difficult thing in this has been that Sundance accepted gifts from "Bombshell Barbie" (I have finally named her!!! Barbie for short ) with such ease, she gave them so easily, he was delighted in them and it made a huge impact. When I buy him something, it feels like I'm just saving him a trip!!!
Please note: every time you wanted to buy SK a gift, it was something that he already wanted (or needed) and he usually had bought it before you could do so. You were feeling jealous about Barbieís ability to give him a gift that he didnít already have. Well, why donít you learn something from her? Do you think that SK is about to go out and buy himself Ďa little plaque that says "to the world you might be just one person, but to one person, you just might be the world"í? Canít you think of a single gift that he would never think of himself? You could always give him something self-made. If you have no talent at drawing, or building ships-in-bottles, you could always give him a poem. And you donít need talent here either. If somebody I loved gave me the following poem, I might not praise the poetry, but at least Iíd be touched by the effort:
ďRoses are red,
Lilacs are blue.
Your feet are big
And your nose is, too.Ē

And whatís so wrong with giving BC a gift now and then? Even if itís only a dandelion (the flower or the puff-ball, each has itís own attractions) plucked out of his own front lawn. Oh, but of course, too sentimental for you two. Well, be careful that you donít get carried away!

xxxxxxxxx

I really shouldnít read too much into the names that youíve chosen for the 2 men in your V, but (after reading what Iíve read in this thread) I canít get the following out of my head: In the film (which I havenít seen in yonks), the first time we see Etta sheís an innocent schoolteacher on her way home. When she gets there, thereís a famous outlaw waiting for her in her living room. With a gun in his hand, he orders her to take her clothes off. Weíve grown fond of the Sundance Kid, but weíre willing to change our opinion of him, this potential rapist. Etta goes along with the play-acting for a while, before criticising him for having stayed away so long. So then we know that itís all a game, that theyíve already got something going.
The next morning, she leaves him asleep in bed, goes outside, and finds Butch Cassidy riding around on a bicycle (quite an exotic form of transport at that time and in that place). He rides around with her sitting on the handlebars.

As I wrote, I canít get this difference in the types of playing that the 2 men indulge in with her out of my head.
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 09-23-2011, 08:21 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,286
Default

hate to be a pain the ass here but ....most of what he said was true..... after the call you were happy and relieved. Today not so much...feel played ...his heart's not in ...etc What about your heart?

Did you find out if he had ended it with her ?

You seem conflicted ....you wanted him to have an outside relationship and fall in "love" someone else but now his heart (in this very early stage) might possibly be confused or conflicted ...... and you feel played ...not worth going to see a therapist because his commitment is in question....by you.


You both need to talk through some of old and the recently( new) issues and you most certainly need a Ref to do that. Go get the help ...dont second guess his heart.
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 09-23-2011, 08:28 PM
Carma's Avatar
Carma Carma is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 478
Default

Thanks so much for all your time and input MFFR, I hope you know how much I appreciate it!

I don't see Barbie as the enemy, I know she isn't. Any time I sounded negative about her it was my own jealousy and sour grapes, really. It took me some time to process that. But when we talked on the phone yesterday, I felt a lot of love for her. (Even though afterward I felt a creeping suspicion that she knows Sundance is lying to ME, and she may be sticking to some of the stories she knows he has told me. But, naturally, she is going to be loyal to the man she loves. I can't fault her for that). Maybe I should have exposed some of the lies he's told her -- I know many of you feel strongly that I should. It didn't seem like the right time for that, the first conversation I was having with her. I find it hard to believe she didn't ask me a single question! But she's got my number now. Maybe she will call me sometime, who knows?

My main concern with the progression of their relationship was not knowing her. I dreamed of her being a sister wife; at the very least I wanted to meet the person I was sharing my husband with! I WAS open to him having another woman, but I didn't know how jealousy could twist things up, nor did I anticipate him closing her off to me. It took me awhile to process. Sundance must have forgotten how hard it was for him in the beginning, because he was completely insensitive! All he kept saying was, "I'll stop with her if you stop with Butch." It was pretty cold.

I do wish Sundance would come here and post. It's getting pretty hard to defend his behavior, myself! And I think it's becoming apparent that a lot of his behavior is not acceptable. I'm good at letting things go. But I said earlier, sometimes I make mountains out of molehills, but more often I make molehills out of mountains! There have been some BIG deal-breakers in our marriage, but I am simply not in a position to just "dump" my husband. The same way he couldn't dump me, when he found out about Butch and me. (Which sometimes I think would have been MUCH BETTER ). We have 4 kids at home, for one thing. I'm not miserable enough to justify the misery a divorce would inflict on them. So I'm staying. But I'm trying to re-structure things, all the time. In an attempt to keep my family together and salvage my dignity. Which IS getting to be more and more difficult.

The last thing I whispered to Sundance last night was, "Now you won't have to lie to me anymore."

Of course, he's still lying, saying she is focusing on her boyfriend, not him; saying he doesn't care about her, that they're not seeing each other, that they're not sleeping together......

The difference is, I have told him my restrictions do not apply anymore. He is free to do as he wishes. Apparently he felt free to do whatever he wishes, ANYWAY. But I'm not going to play the fool. I don't have to question what he tells me anymore. It feels much better. Today.

We've spent a fortune on marriage counseling. I know it's cheaper than a divorce, but we're not getting a divorce, either. No counseling until it reaches a crisis situation, as we still owe the last two counselors! We need to get caught up.

Hey, I know you are all only getting MY side of the story here, but that's the only side I've got!!! I'm committed to being as honest as I can. Otherwise, what would be the point?!?! I don't come here to delude myself -- I'm here for your honest feedback. I think I AM a pretty nice, caring person, but I can be a jerk without even knowing it sometimes. I don't mind a good thump on the head. I also wanted to mention a little river in Egypt called De Nile..... sometimes I know the truth, down in my heart, but in my mind (and my life) I'm not ready to face it quite yet, you know? Thank you all for your patience with me!
__________________
Formerly married to Sundance
Boyfriend -- Butch Cassidy
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 09-23-2011, 08:31 PM
Carma's Avatar
Carma Carma is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 478
Default

Dinged --

I think both of our hearts are just fluttering around right now.

I think we trust our paramours much more than we trust each other.

Maybe for right now, that's ok.
__________________
Formerly married to Sundance
Boyfriend -- Butch Cassidy
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 09-23-2011, 09:26 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: US
Posts: 1,491
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
I think we trust our paramours much more than we trust each other.
Fuck that's really sad, Carma.
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 09-23-2011, 09:48 PM
MrFarFromRight's Avatar
MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ping-ponging around Europe, trying to get a publishing concern off the ground
Posts: 500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
Thanks so much for all your time and input MFFR, I hope you know how much I appreciate it!

I don't see Barbie as the enemy, I know she isn't. Any time I sounded negative about her it was my own jealousy and sour grapes, really. [...] Sundance must have forgotten how hard it was for him in the beginning, because he was completely insensitive! All he kept saying was, "I'll stop with her if you stop with Butch." It was pretty cold. [...] We have 4 kids at home, for one thing. I'm not miserable enough to justify the misery a divorce would inflict on them. So I'm staying. [...]
Hey, I know you are all only getting MY side of the story here, but that's the only side I've got!!! I'm committed to being as honest as I can. Otherwise, what would be the point?!?!
4 points here:

a) I wrote that about Barbie BEFORE I read that you'd phoned her. I'm glad that you've found out that she isn't the enemy. I don't exactly understand why you think that the next 'phone call has to be from her to you. This isn't a game of chess. If you want to talk to her, call her. As simple as that. A suggestion about letting her know that you and SK are still having sex, that doesn't sound like: "Hey! Whatever this guy's been telling you, we do still do the deed.": You could share with her what you've already shared with us. In the middle of one of your 'phone calls, just say: "Oh, I've been meaning to thank you. Since you started banging my husband, the sex between the 2 of us has improved soooooooooo much!"

b) Sundance doesn't seem as generous about trying to understand your needs as you are with him. One of the reasons that I doubted your earlier exclamations of what a wonderful husband he was... as if you didn't deserve him! Go back and watch the film "Gaslight" again. (The Charles Boyer, Ingrid Bergman, Joseph Cotten, Angela Lansbury version...)

c) The bit about messing up the children with a divorce. "So I'm staying" Is that THE reason that you're staying? Or the main one? I think that you need to think about that. How much damage do you think it does them to watch some of the ugliness that's going on? And don't tell me that you keep all that hidden from them. Children are pretty sharp about things like that. I often wondered why my parents didn't get a divorce. I think it would have been a lot healthier. If you stay with Sundance - and I have never suggested that you dump him - it should be because there's a healthy relationship between the 2 of you.

d) We KNOW that we're only getting your side. And I believe you. I certainly don't think that you're deliberately lying to us. As you point out, what would be the point. But there are always AT LEAST 2 sides to every story. I only wanted to point that out, and that I'd be more than willing - I think that most of us would be - to read Sundance' version of things. (Even if he IS a lying scoundrel.)
__________________
If I can't dance, I want no part in your Revolution.
- Emma Goldman Anarchist and Polyamorous par excellence
The person who says something is impossible should not interrupt the person who is doing it.
- old Chinese proverb
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~ Anais Nin
I'd rather have a broken heart / Than have a heart of stone.
- from "Boundless Love (A Polyamory Song)" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 09-23-2011, 10:32 PM
nycindie's Avatar
nycindie nycindie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 8,186
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
I only wanted to point that out, and that I'd be more than willing - I think that most of us would be - to read Sundance' version of things.
Sundance is a member here and we have all suggested to Carma that she urge him to come here and post, but apparently he doesn't want to.
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 09-23-2011, 10:43 PM
AnnabelMore's Avatar
AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,256
Default

"Of course, he's still lying, saying she is focusing on her boyfriend, not him; saying he doesn't care about her, that they're not seeing each other, that they're not sleeping together......"

I'm not saying you should trust him, per se. But why do you assume those points above are, "of course", lies? Maybe some of it's true, maybe even all of it. Since you can't know, I wouldn't assume either way at this point. Be careful that you don't make your fears come true by constantly telling him he's lying and sneaking around your back. Maybe he really isn't but if he keeps hearing it he'll think "well hell, if she's so sure I'm doing it anyway, maybe I should." I mean, let him know that you're having a hard time trusting him and that it would be ok with you if he was with Barbie, but don't push him into her arms a second time, y'know? Who knows, maybe he does care for her but is relieved to not be in a position where he felt like he had to lie all the time anymore.
__________________
Me, 30ish bi female, been doing solo poly for roughly 5 years. Gia, Clay, and Pike, my partners. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler.
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 09-23-2011, 11:05 PM
nycindie's Avatar
nycindie nycindie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 8,186
Default

Oh gawd, it would be so fucking illuminating if all three of you sat down together to talk in person. Then there wouldn't be all this "he said, she said" bullshit and suspicions.
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "

An excellent blog post on hierarchy in polyamory:
solopoly.net/2014/10/31/why-im-not-a-secondary-partner-the-short-version/
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
dishonesty, negotiations

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:48 AM.