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  #131  
Old 09-22-2011, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Carma View Post
I called her!!!

It was great!!!

I just called Sundance and told him I talked to her. He is freaked out, a little teeny bit miffed and a little in awe of my ballsiness (word?) but I feel sooo much better, and I believe SHE does too!

I was cautious enough to skirt around some of the fringes, where I think he has kept some things from me or from her, BECAUSE, overall, I was relieved to discover that most of what he's been saying is TRUE.
Does she now know that you were aware of his relationship with her all along? That you had wanted to meet her?
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  #132  
Old 09-22-2011, 10:43 PM
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We talked for a really long time. I called and said, "It's carma, I thought maybe we should talk?" And she said, "Hi, yeah, me too."

It was pleasant. She told me Sundance has only said wonderful things about me. (Ok, puh-lease, I know he has lamented to her, what a bitch I've been at times, but whatever) and I said he has said such nice things about her, too, that I feel like we are already friends.

I told her I know my relationship with Butch has hurt him very much, and I was glad she came along to make him feel confident and good about himself again. I told her I had encouraged him to find someone. I said I hadn't always been a very good wife to him, and have taken him for granted.

I told her I did get jealous when things started progressing between them, but most of that was really because I wanted to meet her. I told her I begged him to let us meet, and he said he wasn't ready for that. She said she has really been wanting to meet me, too. So I said I'm glad I just went ahead and called, even though he is going to be mad about it.

She said she has always admired him for the way he is at work, how kind he is to everyone and he has a positive attitude. We talked about how good looking he is, and how she is usually not attracted to men who look that good, presuming they are full of themselves, but he isn't. I told her for years I have told him how handsome he is, but it always seemed to fall on deaf ears, yet he seemed to actually HEAR her compliments, and I was jealous of that at first but glad he is finally feeling good about himself.

I also told her I was jealous about the gifts she gave him, then I realized how sweet and thoughtful she is, and how can it be a bad thing that she gives him nice things? But again, without knowing her I was starting to feel uncomfortable.

I said I hope we can meet in person sometime and she said she would like that, too.

She said that she never wants to interfere or break up our marriage, that her own life is pretty messed up right now and she is not looking for anything permanent. She has a boyfriend who she is still pretty hooked on, even though he treats her rather sketchy (and is living with someone else).

I told her I have no hard feelings towards her and I think she is really beautiful and deserves only good things in life.
-----------------
Ok, that's a lot of the conversation, anyway. Now here's what I "read between the lines":

I think she was exaggerating her feelings for her boyfriend, so I wouldn't feel threatened. I think she and Sundance have been carrying on in secret these past 2 weeks and she is covering that up. I think she is well aware of some lies he has told me, and she is being cautious not to reveal anything. I think at this point in time, she knows my husband better than I do.

I feel a little sad about that, but their relationship has taken on a life of its own, and I am not in charge. If he eventually decides he's happier with her, I guess I will have to deal with that. But at least now, he does not have to lie to me, because I have basically sent out the message that I am open to her loving him. She made it sound like she is focusing on her boyfriend right now -- but I know this is not really true. She talks to Sundance all the time -- he says "99% of our conversations are about work." Yeah, RIGHT. Her boyfriend treats her like crap, and Sundance says all the sweet things that a woman wants to hear, plus he's gorgeous, plus he's attentive, plus she sees only the best of him, so she has stars in her eyes, completely.

She did say, "I know he really loves you, he told me you and he are affectionate, that you sleep in the same bed... and I know it is none of my business and not my place to know what goes on between you." So, she wasn't fishing directly for the truth about that, but I think it's because she A. doesn't really care and B. doesn't really want to know!

When I told him I'd called her, like I said he was pretty freaked. He was really in a HUGE rush to get the hell off the phone with me so he could call her!

It's deeper than he admits to me.
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  #133  
Old 09-23-2011, 08:17 AM
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Carma, Carma, Carma. I think it sounds you put yourself down quite a bit, as if you were such a bad wife whose sins drove him to her. You have to get over that guilt! You fell in love with Butch, did not give in to temptation, came clean about it to Sundance and asked to continue in an ethical, responsible manner -- to which he agreed, with open eyes and many, many restrictions. Please stop feeling like you were a terrible wife who ignored and mistreated your husband. It just ain't so!!!

I also think she was definitely fishing to know whether or not you were still having sex with him, and I think you should have told her that you are! She is not in a position of authority over you or Sundance or anyone here. You have every right to let her know the truth of your relationship, so she knows exactly what she's gotten into and you don't have to wonder about what she knows or doesn't know.

I do think couples counseling would be good for you and Sundance. there seems to be so much unspoken between you.

But not to deflate you completely , I will say that I am very glad you called her. I think it was a good step in the right direction toward standing up for up for yourself. No retreating back into the shadows, now. (((((HUGS)))))
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  #134  
Old 09-23-2011, 02:20 PM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
You fell in love with Butch, did not give in to temptation, came clean about it to Sundance and asked to continue in an ethical, responsible manner -- to which he agreed, with open eyes and many, many restrictions. Please stop feeling like you were a terrible wife who ignored and mistreated your husband. It just ain't so!!!
I agree. By continuing to claim you "cheated", which after you explained what actually happend is NOT true, you put yourself in the position of the violater and Sundance as the victim. And while you two might have had other issues in which you weren't being the best partner, which by the way happens to MOST couples at some point, that doesn't make you deserving of bad treatment. So stop it.

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Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I also think she was definitely fishing to know whether or not you were still having sex with him, and I think you should have told her that you are! She is not in a position of authority over you or Sundance or anyone here. You have every right to let her know the truth of your relationship, so she knows exactly what she's gotten into and you don't have to wonder about what she knows or doesn't know.
I agree. You need to just be honest and truthful with her, and stop trying to figure out what information she needs, what she wants, what Sundance wants her to know. Stop. Straight up and honest. She deserves to know. She NEEDS to know. And you deserve to be able to honestly say "I fuck my husband."

Quote:
Originally Posted by nycindie View Post
I do think couples counseling would be good for you and Sundance. there seems to be so much unspoken between you.
I think a third party might be mighty helpful in getting you guys out of some patterns you have, and helping the communication.
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  #135  
Old 09-23-2011, 03:13 PM
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Yeah, I suppose I was a bit self-deprecating in our conversation. But I wanted her to know I don't blame HER.

If I speak to her again in the future I may get the opportunity to share more with her. But I don't think it will be necessary, unless she calls me. I think they are deeply entwined, and I am in fact his secondary at this point in time!

Quite frankly, that is ok with me right now.

I'll have to take his lies that I'm "his girl" and "the only one he loves" with a grain of salt for awhile. He has played her but he only THINKS he's playing me. I am guarding my heart, people.

I am sorry he feels he can't trust me with his deepest feelings.

Marriage counseling isn't worth the expense if his heart is not in the marriage right now, anyway.

His head is here, and for now that is going to have to be enough for me. We have kids, we have financial issues, we have to be practical. He is playing me because he needs/wants to keep his family intact -- well, I want that too.

I can't predict what will happen with her, but I do know that I am not god and I am not in control. He will eventually either get tired of her and break it off, or he will fall more and more deeply in love with her and eventually leave me. I don't see him being completely honest enough to have a happy poly family! I did tell him last night, "I finally think I have a sister wife!" And he sort of grumbled and downplayed it (still thinking he can convince me he's not seeing her or caring about her). I joked about it lightheartedly and said, "She's your wife up there (near work) and I'm your wife back home!" We'll see what develops.

Until then I am just going to try and give him his space and his privacy. If he shares with me about her, fine, if not, that's fine too. He's been selectively sharing anyway, so the only difference is I'm not going to obsess about what he's doing and saying with her.

And I'm not rushing back into something with Butch right now. I need to focus on myself and my kids. Ew, and my finances, what a mess.
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  #136  
Old 09-23-2011, 03:34 PM
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I`m glad you bit the bullet, and called her,...that is good. However all the games being played by all parties involved, is hard to read.
You seem to be a really likeable person, that is why its hard to read all the lies everyone is telling. ( lies by omission, are still lies.)

You must all be exhausted with this. I know I would be.
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  #137  
Old 09-23-2011, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carma View Post
Marriage counseling isn't worth the expense if his heart is not in the marriage right now, anyway.
I strongly disagree with this. As long as you still have to work together to raise your family and maintain your household together, I think this would be incredibly helpful to you both. It took my husband and I nearly 20 years before seeking help and as I look back, I'm still beating myself up for not getting help sooner. That neutral third party is extremely helpful. My husband would listen to the counselor when he wouldn't listen to me and vice versa.
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  #138  
Old 09-23-2011, 05:50 PM
MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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OK, I'm back in the city, rather surprised (and relieved) that this hasn't got to page 24 yet. I've caught up on what has been posted since I left, but not everything from the beginning.

Carma, you thanked me for my kindness. I hope the next post doesn't change your mind. Tough love is better than soft-soap flattery. As others have said, I'm rooting for you, too. And congratulations on calling Barbie. I'm proud of you!

In light of that - and other things I've read just now - I COULD spend loads of time editing what I've written in my "hole in the wall" hideaway. But I've got an assembly [of The Spŗnish Revolution] in a few minutes and besides, if what I've written is no longer pertinent to you, maybe someone else might get some good out of it.

Hugs,
MFFR

p.s. I see that you're an ex-Catholic. No wonder you wallow in guilt! As someone else pointed out, you got emotionally involved with Butch before "coming clean" with Sundance about it. Loads of people do this. Many go further. You didn't consummate the relationship until the poly aspect had been OKed. Sounds reasonably honorable behaviour to me... STOP BLAMING YOURSELF!!!

Last edited by MrFarFromRight; 09-23-2011 at 06:10 PM.
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  #139  
Old 09-23-2011, 05:54 PM
MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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What I wrote is too long, so I've got to split it into 3 posts...
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Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight View Post
I've been dipping into this thread, the tiny bit I've read is fascinating but I'd thought that I shouldn't get involved (add opinions) because I haven't read it all... and haven't got time to (or do I??? - I could copy and paste it into my memory stick and read it at leisure back home [solar-panel-fed laptop without Internet connection]).
Well, I managed to copy and paste the first 4 (or maybe 5) [of 12] pages of this thread into a Wordģ document before the cyber cafť manager announced that he was closing. I just had time to store that doc. on a memory stick and had to leave. So now Iím back at home, have read through what I managed to store, and will start commenting. But bear in mind that Iím only going by these first few pages + snippets that I can remember reading from later pages. (And itís going to be long, especially since Iím quoting big-time from posts that are Ė by the time you read this Ė WAY back.)

Some of this stuff might have been resolved by now, some has been commented on by others. There are some interesting details that nobody else seems to have picked up on. Anyway, Iíll give my take on what Iíve read. And Carma, before I start: it may seem that Iím being too cold-headed, hard-hearted, and bloody-minded. Believe me when I say that I undertake this analysis because of my affection for you. It may be that Iím way off-beam, but if any of the things I say strike a chord and help to shine a new (but true) light on things, Iím hoping that it will help you all to resolve the situation and be happier.

The verdict Ė if your [Carmaís] testimony is to be believed (and itís the only one Iíve got to go on) - is that youíve all behaved rather badly... except for Barbie. [You have to understand that this is a very personal view, based on my own ideas of polyamory.] Iím not saying that Barbie hasnít acted badly, but any evidence against her has come from hearsay [Carmaís version of what The Sundance Kid (from now on: SK) Ė or somebody else? Ė has told her] and I canít judge her on the strength of that. After all, according to Carma, SK has been doing a fair amount of lying.

Guilty but with mitigating circumstances in each case. The quotes from now on are from various posts by Carma.

Quote:
I'm married and I have a boyfriend (Butch Cassidy) of 10 months. I've been encouraging Sundance (my husband) to find a girlfriend, too. He wasn't really thrilled about that - he only wanted me. He said he is mono, really. But I thought a girlfriend would help heal his wounded ego, and make him feel like the hottie he truly is. I wanted another girl on my team, so to speak.
From what I remember (correct me if Iím mistaken), Butch Cassidy [from now on: BC] is also mono. So the situation before this whole thing started was: Carma/Etta as poly woman hinge of V, with SK and BC as mono arms of the V? Both apparently happy with the set-up? But no:
Quote:
Poly has been tough on him [SK], although he does care for Butch very much and he understands my love for him.
You wanted someone else to appear:
Quote:
Someone to help stroke him and make him feel special. Sometimes I'm a real bitch. Sometimes I neglect the hell out of him. Sundance deserves better. I felt another girl and a little NRE would take the pressure off of me, make him happier, and maybe even she and I could become nice friends too.
So your motives in wanting SK to find a GF were rather selfish: lessen your sense of guilt for neglecting (and ďbitchingĒ at) him; take the pressure off you; a new potential woman friend / poly partner(?) for you; make the poly situation (that youíd been enjoying) less tough for him (and therefore justifiable for you to continue). [It goes without saying that you donít need to justify polyamory to me, or to anybody else on this board. But it seems to me that you were subconsciously trying to justify it to yourself! And maybe to SK.]
Quote:
He finally struck up a dalliance with someone. I've been excited about it, happy for him. She fawns all over him and pumps him up, tells him how wonderful he is, etc. But he was kinda lukewarm to the situation, saying he really doesn't feel right, he feels terribly guilty, and while he likes all the attention and the flirting, he just wants to be with me, and the kids. He said it would just remain flirting, that he had no interest in taking it further. But still I encouraged him to carry on. And clearly, she DID want it to go further. And then of course, he kinda did too. And it did.

And I freaked out.

I don't want to share!!!!! [...] I feel like throwing up. He feels terrible.
Before I comment on this, Iím going to tie in other, later quotes:
Quote:
We made love this morning and it was more passionate than it's been in a loooong time. SLOW. And lots of deep kissing. Lovely! He is working all day today, but when he gets home he's going to be so surprised! I sent all the kids to grandma's, I'm making a perfect dinner, I'm going to have candles lit and sexy music playing and me wearing a slinky something when he walks in that door!
Quote:
Also, no matter what he was telling her, I suspect she thought it was only a matter of time before he'd get sick of my ill treatment and run to her. Truth be told, I think it would have happened eventually if I hadn't gotten my head out of my ass.
Quote:
I know my husband. He is like me, more than he knew -- sex without love is ok, but with love, it's simply divine.
Quote:
Sundance was invited to go to a family gathering tonight with the new gf. Moving waaaaaaay too fast for me!!! They just slept together for the first time last Thursday night, now he is meeting her entire family????
Quote:
I know she thinks she is saving him from a wife who really doesn't love him. [...] Now here I am, begging him to believe that he is going too fast with this girl [...] Suddenly it's like, yeah, red flag all right! He's walking right into her life! SHE was supposed to walk into MINE!!! [...] Maybe she is going to be so much easier and breezier, after how complicated I have been for so long, maybe he belongs with her. I know I am projecting, because I am so afraid of what COULD happen. [...] I am so convinced he is going to fit right in to her family. [...] But he keeps saying he doesn't love her. He downplays everything. Is that to spare my feelings? She is obviously getting the impression that she means something more to him!!! [...] She's fucking gorgeous. But what would I want, for my beautiful Sundance? Looks are important to him.
And I canít find it here in these first pages, but I remember distinctly that you wrote at some point something along the lines of: ďSheís falling in love with my husband. How can I blame her for that?Ē
Quote:
I fell in love with Butch. [...] Butch is definitely on our team, and has never acted otherwise. He discourages any little acts of sentimentality on my part. [...] We do not say I love you and we do not exchange gifts. We do not call or text each other often, we keep everything in moderation, lest we get lost in NRE and mess everything all up! [...] Maybe I should have just left Butch well enough alone. He would have found someone to love him, in time. Why did I think it HAD to be me???? [...] I haven't seen Butch in over a week, and I am fighting the urge to call him. [...] I just don't want to need him. [...] And I haven't heard from Butch, which is frankly, a relief! Sundance gets to have all the fun today. I get: a husband who has been worshipped and adored for awhile, who DOESN'T have to lie to me today!!! And who will come home looking forward to our special one-on-one time together.
Quote:
When I come back to the poly model (which is, "loving more") I think we can, and everything is beautiful. The thought of extending love to our paramours and receiving it too, makes my heart soar. [...] It's kind of like his relationship with her is a punishment to me. For what? For loving Butch. And it is very sad to be punished for loving someone. Funny, because he gets REWARDED, for having sex with her! I feel threatened, so I up my game. We get closer and more lovey than ever.
So hereís my reading on ALL of that:

a) You and BC were holding back, not letting yourselves be carried away, you were putting the brakes on Ė if not on your feelings, then at least on the way that you expressed those feelings. WHY? To spare SKís feelings? To assure him that your love for him wasnít under threat? Verdict: guilty of scrimping on love. [This is where my very particular slant on polyamory comes into it: If polyamory is different than swinging precisely because itís not just sex, you give your partner(s) the right, the FREEDOM to get emotionally involved, surely that freedom should mean TOTAL freedom. Do we have the moral right to say: ďWell, sure you can get emotionally involved, but only so far and no more!Ē? As others have pointed out, the difference between primary and secondary desnít have to be in the level of love involved: itís in the living situation (who shares living space with whom, who has children together...)]
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  #140  
Old 09-23-2011, 05:59 PM
MrFarFromRight MrFarFromRight is offline
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b) Carma, if SK were acting decently, your reaction to his involvement with Barbie wouldn’t seem very poly to me. I can sympathise with your thinking that it’s “Moving waaaaaaay too fast for me!!!”, but your reaction seems to have to do with more than just the speed of it all. However – as I make clear in d), I don’t believe that SK was acting decently. As others have already pointed out, this isn’t a poly problem: it’s a relationship problem, with a heavy dose of dishonesty at the root. I just want to point out that SK isn’t the only one being dishonest. He’s just the most blatant and extreme in it. Frankly, it seems to me that poly was just hunky-dory for you as long as were the one with two lovers. When SK got involved with somebody else, you “freaked”. Is that poly? Or selfishness?

c) Barbie (judging from the hearsay) wasn’t putting the brakes on. She was told by this attractive guy that:
i) his wife was neglecting him.
ii) they were into this thing called polyamory, that gave him permission to have a scene with her [Barbie]. What’s more, the wife was encouraging him to do so. “So it’s not cheating”.
Whether she believes in polyamory or not (she might believe that he’s heading for a divorce, and that if she’s patient, he’ll be all hers), she’s NOT cheating. She has been told that the wife knows about her and OKs the relationship. She’s making a play for a guy she’s fallen for, she’s pulling out all the stops. I – for one – can’t blame her for that. Can you? Can you understand why I believe that you NEED to talk with her... and LISTEN to her?

d) Unless SK comes on here and explains his behaviour, unless I’ve got to believe that you [Carma] are twisting things WAY out of true, my take is that SK WAS cheating. (Has he stopped by now?) He was lying to you. And – according to him – to her. And he was making you suffer. This might have been his way for getting revenge for your earlier cheating on him. Whatever. He had this GF who was treating him like Mr. Perfect, and he was rubbing your nose in it!:

1) He lied to you in such OBVIOUS ways because he wanted you to KNOW that he was. (Have you read the book “Games People Play” by Eric Berne? I haven’t got a copy here, but I remember one game called “Cops And Robbers” where the robber NEEDS to be caught. It’s essential to his “game”. And the game is dysfunctional.) That time (later in this thread, I’m going by memory here) when he interrupted an important ’phone conversation with you to take a call from her on his other line and told you that the other call was from his boss, I’m pretty sure that he wanted you to find out that lie, too.

2) He made obvious to you that he was lying to her.
Quote:
I am pretty sure I know most of what's been said between them because he has shown me his text conversations with her.
And how’s THAT for a great method of rubbing your nose in it ? All her lovey-dovey texts to him.

3) The following behaviour is mind-boggling:
Quote:
Sundance was invited to go to a family gathering tonight with the new gf. Moving waaaaaaay too fast for me!!! [...] He says he won't go if it upsets me so much. But he keeps saying how hurt and disappointed she is going to be. [...] It feels like it is happening so fast. I honestly did not anticipate the family thing coming on so soon. [...] Another red flag: after all the crying I've done all last night and this morning, after him telling me he'd cancel, come to find out just a few minutes ago, he still hasn't canceled on her. Maybe this was really important to him? He doesn't want to hurt her [...] I told him to go, so he doesn't have to break his word. We'll deal with the fallout later. [...] Sundance went to her family dinner.
Quote:
I went to NYC for 5 days and it was really hard leaving Sundance, feeling unsettled with our current status. I was pretty preoccupied the whole trip, which is too bad because I usually just have a blast with my daughters.

I arranged a babysitter for him one of the nights, he wanted to go out "solo." Surprise, she ended up driving into town. (Does he really think I am supposed to believe that wasn't the plan all along? Why even pretend? I'm not sure. Maybe it seems less intentional that way -- ?)
Whoa! Tiny detail: This is this “wonderful father” that you brag about, and YOU have to arrange the babysitter? Sorry, just an unimportant detail... The “Surprise, she ended up driving into town.” is the important thing. And it gets worse!:
Quote:
Before I left I asked him please not to have her come to our house while I was gone. I would like to meet her before she comes to my home. I don't think that is being unreasonable. Besides the fact that I am not the greatest housekeeper in the world, and I am embarrassed that the house is not tidy (I'm really ashamed of the state of my closets, for example!), I also did not want her being with my sons without even meeting me first.

Well, the boys were in the house with a babysitter, and Sundance let her peek in the windows. He says she begged him to let her come see the house. (But he did say he had straightened up before he left. Therefore I know he had every intention of letting her peek in). I'm not sure how I feel about this. A little like he wants to push everything right to the edge, you know???
This is a real doozy ! And you’re “not sure how [you] feel about this”???!!! Well, what do you think about the following hypothetical scenarios?:

A) “Before I let him go on his first date with her, I asked him please not to have sex with her. I would like to meet her before that. I don't think that is being unreasonable. Well, he did fuck her. He says she begged him. (But he did say he had bought condoms on the way over to her place. So it’s alright: no damage done.)”

B) “Before he went out burgling, I asked him please not to hurt anybody, that if he got caught, I’d rather wait for him to get out of prison than for him to shoot his way out. He promised me... but took a loaded pistol along, ‘just in case’.”

Come ON, Carma! This guy has been stomping all over your wishes, your feelings. And he’s been doing it in a pre-meditated way. Does he USUALLY “straighten up” before he leaves the house? OK, maybe I’m jumping to conclusions: maybe he did that for the babysitter... But that doesn’t change the fact that he DID let her peek into the window. And then told you about it.

And that’s another thing. He tells you all about it: the oral sex in the park in the moonlight, the gifts that she gives him, the texts they send each other. Do you give him a blow-by-blow report of your dates with BC? One thing is honesty. A totally other thing is rubbing your nose in it.

This is
Quote:
the most dedicated husband anyone could imagine. [...] I am so lucky to have his love.
??? He’s watched you falling apart, kicking yourself, swimming (almost drowning) in feelings of guilt, and did he try to reassure you, support you, convince you that he loved you? (Aside from “We made love this morning and it was more passionate than it's been in a loooong time. SLOW. And lots of deep kissing. Lovely!” Hardly altruistic support of you on his part. You felt guilty, so he got greater sex.) And that:
Quote:
when he gets home he's going to be so surprised! I sent all the kids to grandma's, I'm making a perfect dinner, I'm going to have candles lit and sexy music playing and me wearing a slinky something when he walks in that door!

I sent him out there hungry and hurting. I am going to vow not to do that again. I love that man!
“[How To Become] The Complete Woman”!!!

Last edited by MrFarFromRight; 09-23-2011 at 06:08 PM.
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