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  #91  
Old 09-12-2011, 03:58 PM
opalescent opalescent is offline
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I'm sorry you ended things with Butch and I'm glad that you are ok.

Yet I can't help but think you got played by Sundance, manipulated into ending things with Butch.

I understand you must put your marriage first - I totally get that. But the manner in which you got from there to here, stinks to high heaven, at least to my nose.

I would really, really like to be wrong about this.

Best of luck to you, Carma.
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  #92  
Old 09-12-2011, 04:14 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Originally Posted by opalescent View Post
Yet I can't help but think you got played by Sundance, manipulated into ending things with Butch.

I understand you must put your marriage first - I totally get that. But the manner in which you got from there to here, stinks to high heaven, at least to my nose.
Yeah, I am kinda sorry you gave up, intimidated by Sun's anger and refusal to come clean with Barbie. I hope you and he can get some therapy around the anger/intimidation issues, and go on from there.
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  #93  
Old 09-12-2011, 04:18 PM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Yeah, I am kinda sorry you gave up, intimidated by Sun's anger and refusal to come clean with Barbie. I hope you and he can get some therapy around the anger/intimidation issues, and go on from there.
Ditto. And my heart goes out to Butch, who seems to have had very little control over this.
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  #94  
Old 09-12-2011, 04:23 PM
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nycindie nycindie is offline
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I am sorry you felt this was the only way to resolve it, Carma.

So... now he's ending it with Barbie?
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  #95  
Old 09-12-2011, 08:50 PM
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Carma Carma is offline
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He SAYS he's ending it with Barbie. I can't say I believe he really will. I am so suspicious right now I'm like totally paranoid. But so much of what has happened has logically made me that way. I'm not totally stupid or naive! He has told so many "little white lies" which HE feels were totally justified, that I can't imagine why he wouldn't tell more.

Sundance never really stopped to question his own motives, but now he will have no choice. It will now show whether he really thinks nothing of her, or if she means something to him, after all. Now, his relationship with her stands on its own. I can't predict what will happen, largely because of the lies he has told. I don't really know what she's been told, all along, nor now. I have a feeling that some of it will come out! But who knows?

Opal, I believe I got played, too. But, I started the game. I know that. I had to end it, on my part, or remain the hypocrite I was realizing myself to be. (Got called out as such, too, here on the forum. Spade.) Also, the "game" ended up painful, stressful, and dangerous. Kinda like war games, maybe: "The only way to win is not to play."

Sundance was not capable of sustaining the level of honesty it takes to make this work. I don't fault him for that, I feel sad for him and I wonder if he can get better. He is not secure enough in himself. He has a lot of work to do if he is going to be truly happy. Maybe I can help him by being more focused on our marriage.

It was time to end things with Butch. For many reasons, it was time. I have had to take a REALLY hard look at my relationship with him, and think, "Is it really worth all of this grief? Is it really worth losing my husband and my home and my family? Would Butch want to be a part of all that loss? Would Butch be perfectly ok without me in his life?" I know I will always love him. But I will make different choices when it comes to acting on or expressing that love. Sometimes love is holding on, and sometimes letting go.

Lots of deep soul searching going on inside of me right now.
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  #96  
Old 09-15-2011, 11:57 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Carma,

I don't share this to try to get you to change your mind about Butch -- I understand your decision. Rather, I was thinking that if Sundance is ever open to understanding why his suggestion that he would leave Barbie if you left Butch just wasn't really cool in the first place, this new essay from the xeromag.com guy might help:

http://www.morethantwo.com/polyfairness.html
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  #97  
Old 09-16-2011, 02:30 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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annabelmore,

I think you have to look at the entire history of this ...an then judge fair or unfair ....
I clicked on the link read a little

To briefly summarize... she had an affair for years ....got caught ...persuaded Sundance to try to give poly a go ....for the last year or so she has been openly see Butch ....Sundances has been dealing ...recently she encourages him to find his own lover ....he does.... She has trouble dealing with ...new penis nickname,..meeting the parents, frequent unscheduled sexapades, gifts, etc.etc. ( oh ya ...he told some stories to the new woman and handled things poorly) I'm guessing that it could have been him finding a sympathetic ear ...then just snowballed....4-5yrs of bottled up feelings and stories just dying to get out. ....Mix in some NRE and sex ....and ....

During the block of time when Sundance was without a second relationship she spoke of him in very glowing terms ....a love him for his sacrifice....he tries so hard what a great partner I have .......I'm the happiest woman in the world ... livin the dream etc,etc

So if Sundance reads the article he ...could say ...so you think my suggestion ....To relieve your current and brief (from duration stay point) pain is unfair .....lifes not fair got a great article for you to read ....Couldn't he take said article and use it in the same manner?

And shouldn't there be some sort of fundamental fairness? So are you suggesting she be the only one to have an outside relationship because she cant handle the fallout and he can't deal honestly with the other partner...so life's not fair you'll have to get rid of Barbie ...got to run.... meeting Butch in an hour....how do I look....should I ditch the bra ?

I didn't read the entire article because I didn't see the direct tie in for Sundance ...and thought this is a two edged sword....

Carma,
...please correct anything in the history that I misstated or got wrong.

I hope you and Sundance can heal and provide a stable platform for your kids what ever that dynamic looks like ....perhaps shift the focus to the family ...take a break from the poly postmortem.
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  #98  
Old 09-16-2011, 05:38 PM
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AnnabelMore AnnabelMore is offline
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Dh, I hear you that things were messed up on both sides at various times in the relationship. And I have read her whole story. Past wrongs don't make future wrongs ok. Nothing that's happened previously makes it ok for Carma to get manipulated into a position where her choices are 1) divorce, 2) stay in a situation where lies are the rule of the day with the myriad terrifying implications of that, or 3) leave her boyfriend even though her connection to him was still strong and he was being a great metamour to her husband.

The part of the article that I found most relevant did happen to be at the end. It's sort of the reverse of Carma's situation, but I think it's relevant for the lesson at the end. I'll paste it here.

***

Another real-world example, which I've used before: Many years ago I knew a married couple that was exploring polyamory. The wife had a girlfriend for many years, but when he finally found a girlfriend, the wife became overwhelmingly, irrationally jealous. After dealing with this jealousy in the typical fashion for a while (you know, passive-aggresive acting out, that sort of thing), she finally went to him and told him, look, I want you to dump your girlfriend. I'll dump my other partner too, so it'll be fair.

Three broken hearts for the price of one is a peculiar definition of the word "fair" in my book; which illustrates yet another important point:

Symmetry is not the same thing as fairness.

Personally, the kind of fairness that really counts is the kind that starts with compassion.
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The major players. Me, 30ish bi female. Gia, girlfriend of 4+ years. Clay, boyfriend/dom. Davis, ex/friend/"it's complicated." Eddie, roommate & fwb.
The supporting cast. Eric, Gia's husband. Bee, Gia and Eric's toddler. Dexter, Gia's lover. Helen, Eric's lover. Izzy and Nikki, Clay's partners. Liam, Eddie's husband.
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  #99  
Old 09-16-2011, 06:39 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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How is this manipulation. He saying I'm bothered by you seeing butch and your going crazy by my seeing barbie .....why don't we remove each others discomfort. It wasn't a mandate or ultimatum ....just an idea. ....perhaps an unworkable one....

Previous wrongs could explain why certain things have happened a why someone may feel less willing to negotiate.....thinking they've been doing all the bending for the last 5 yrs. fair or not.

Where's the compassion for sun dance....it just nre ....let the nre settle down then .....first time out he gets a mulligan .....that kind stuff...

The situation from the article is similar but in this situation they are both struggling with the others romantic outsourcing.
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  #100  
Old 09-16-2011, 07:11 PM
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SourGirl SourGirl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
How is this manipulation....

Previous wrongs could explain why certain things have happened a why someone may feel less willing to negotiate.....thinking they've been doing all the bending for the last 5 yrs. fair or not.

Where's the compassion for sun dance....it just nre ....let the nre settle down then .....first time out he gets a mulligan .....that kind stuff...
Good luck getting that thought process out, DH. Many seem to want to live in the moment, and forget that one thing truly leads to another.

The flip side of that is to remember,..that this is definitely a sick-cycle ...She cheated on Sundance for a long time,....what brought her to the cheating ? Feelings of unworthiness, etc ? His passive-aggressive attitude, her fear ?

Who knows where it starts, but it certainly doesn`t end unless people take responsibility for themselves.

As for compassion,..I hear ya. There definitely seems to be a slant in advice as of late. What is good for the goose, is not so, for the gander.

Your spouse is doing things wrong??? Leave-em, ditch-em, kick them to the curb !!! But hey, if you dump your secondary or newest lover, we`ll tell you, that you treated them as disposable !

Happy Friday everyone :P
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