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  #91  
Old 11-11-2011, 09:15 PM
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Mya Mya is offline
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Today we talked for 7 hours, normally it's not for that long, though.
Yeah, normally it's only 4 hours. If one of us has something planned and says we have to keep it short, it's still like 2 hours.

I love the long skype calls. They really make me feel like rory is a significant part of my everyday life. It's awesome! JJ was away from home for a few days, so that 7 hour call came at the perfect time when I didn't have any other plans either and I was home alone.
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Old 11-13-2011, 11:10 PM
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I'm leaving to see rory in a few days. I feel suprisingly calm. I am excited of course and very happy to see her, but I guess because we've talked so much lately I feel like the change is not going to be very big when I get there. Well obviously I can't wait to be with her physically, hug her and more. But for the rest, I'm really calm about everything. I'm not nervous like I was last time. I feel relaxed and sure that everything's going to go well.

I saw my mom today and talked about my next trip to rory. When I was leaving her house, she said "Have fun on your vacation!". I replied "It's not really a vacation, I'm going to work from there like normal. It's just like everyday life but in a different place. But thanks, I'm sure I'll have fun!". That came out of me without thinking. I'm actually pretty happy about that genuine thought. I don't want it to be too special occasion when I go there. I feel like I've let go of most of my expectations and I'm just going with the flow, doing what feels right, not thinking too much. I love this feeling and I hope it lasts.
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  #93  
Old 11-14-2011, 08:37 AM
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I saw my mom today and talked about my next trip to rory. When I was leaving her house, she said "Have fun on your vacation!". I replied "It's not really a vacation, I'm going to work from there like normal. It's just like everyday life but in a different place. But thanks, I'm sure I'll have fun!". That came out of me without thinking. I'm actually pretty happy about that genuine thought. I don't want it to be too special occasion when I go there. I feel like I've let go of most of my expectations and I'm just going with the flow, doing what feels right, not thinking too much. I love this feeling and I hope it lasts.
This sounds good! <3
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  #94  
Old 11-15-2011, 01:25 PM
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I'll need to try and be really concious about this, and stop it. I'm thinking that I should make an agreement with myself that:

1) whenever an emotion is expressed to me, I do my best not to react with anything but listening and sympathy, and allow my partner, and myself, feel whatever feelings there are.
2) If there are some excellent reasons in my head why that feeling shouldn't exist (and there pretty much always are), I will not express them in the same conversation. Maybe there should be a timeline, that I may not say them, unless asked, in at least 24 hours. I'm thinking that if my partner want's to discuss it rationally, I can say what I think, but I shouldn't offer my opinion before they have had enough time to feel the feeling..?
I made these decisions a while ago. Me and Alec haven't had these situations happen. With Mya, I haven't really kept to the second decision; or maybe our way of communicating is just so full of analysis that it would be wery strange for me to not express my thoughts. But I'm happy to say that I have been very conscious about this issue since: thus, I make sure that I'm not trying to change any feelings there may be, and I do express that also to Mya. I feel this has worked well for us. I'll still have to see how these work with Alec. But it looks good because I've been so conscious now to avoid the tendency to fix.

Mya's coming the day after tomorrow! I'm really happy about that. I feel that since our talks we are in a really stable place. I mean, even more than before. People here talk about building foundations, that's a really good way to put it: that's what I feel we are doing.

Oh yeah, me and Mya also had an enlightening conversation about feelings of safety and uncertainty. It was interesting to discuss how differently we had interpreted recent developments, and what kind of feelings they were raising in both of us. As I have described in earlier posts, in the last few months, poly has become more concrete to Alec, and he has expressed some negative feelings about some aspects, and some needs and boundaries. Mya has been aware of these developments. For her, it has felt like we were in a really safe and stable place for the first ~5 months, and then there were suddengly steps backwards. It felt confusing and raised some uncertainty about her place in my life. I didn't know all this: I mean, even though she told me how she felt, I didn't realise the connection there until later.

For me, the same developments were, at the bottom of it, positive ones, and I had the opposite reaction: they made me feel more secure in the relationship. Before this, I had a (small but nagging) fear that when poly became more concrete, Alec would suddenly realise that he can't do poly after all, that it's not for him, and the whole thing would explode. But after we had the talks about our future and boundaries, I saw that poly had become concrete to him: that he had realised fully that life will never be the same again. (How dramatic. ) I mean, it signalled to me, that he had actually realised how much me having a girlfriend can and will affect his life, and not just mine. So for me, the discussions made me feel safer.

It may be, that our feelings, mine and Mya's, about the stability and security in the relationship are now actually closer to each other than before. It's not that she feels "too much" insecurity now, but that for her there was an illusion of safety because everything seemed to bee so "perfect". Whereas it is actually the case that now there are more realistic expectations, and also more realistic picture of the potential needs and wants and capabilities of everybody involved. As in, now it looks like there probably will be some kind of (small or large) conflict at some point about something. Before it looked like everything was absolutely perfect, which unnerved me because nothing ever is. This is much better, because instead of it feeling perfect in an unrealistic way, it feels so damn good in a realistic way.
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  #95  
Old 11-17-2011, 11:40 AM
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I'm now at rory's and she's at the university so I thought I'd write about a revelation I had on my way here. Many hours to just be by yourself and think..

In a quite short amount of time rory has told me in separate conversations:
1) her definition of love and that her love for her friends is the same love she feels for me and Alec
2) she loves a friend of hers, let's call her Ally (I know her too)
3) she would like to have sex with Ally

When she first told me about wanting to have sex with her, I felt bad. The feeling wasn't a very big one, but it existed. I brought it up in quite a few conversations with rory, because it somehow confused me, the whole thing. Me and rory have agreed not to start seeing anybody new until we both feel stable enough in our relationship. First I thought that my feeling a bit bad had to do with that, as in "there's same kind of love than with me and there's a connection and there would be sex, what more do you need for a relationship?". So I thought I was afraid rory would eventually start a relationship with Ally if they had sex and their feelings would deepen. And I sure aren't ready for that yet. I wouldn't mind her having sex with someone random though.

Anyway, since I'm not usually jealous at all, all this made me feel very weird and question my feelings. Where do they really come from? On my way here I realised it really wasn't the sex with Ally that bothered me, but rory's definition of love and the fact that by that definition she loves both me and Ally equally. It hurt me somehow. But then I started to question why shouldn't she love us equally, what's bad about that. The thing is, I have several friends that I love, in a friendly way. I separate romantic love and friend love in a way rory doesn't. So for me it felt like if I loved them all in the same way, there wouldn't be anything "magical" or "indefinable" in romantic love, which I feel there is.

The revelation I had last night was that I have a past trauma about this subject. My first boyfriend never loved me but I loved him. We had this conversation:
Me: I love you
Ex: I don't know what love is so I can't say I love you back. I really like you though.

And this never changed. During our one year long relationship he never once said he loves me and that was eventually the reason we broke up.

So deep down I'm scared that I love rory more than she loves me, or that I love her romantically and she only loves me like a friend.

Today we talked about this and I got some more clarity on what she feels. Rory also said she's not really sure anymore if the way she described her feelings was very accurate (she's not sure if it's entirely similar love for friends and partners, or if she's just had romantic feelings for several of her friends). That conversation made me feel much better and more special. Like the feeling I have for her is not one-sided.
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Last edited by Mya; 11-17-2011 at 12:10 PM.
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  #96  
Old 11-17-2011, 04:48 PM
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I've been posting on my blog about feeling jealous or not jealous about my loves possibly sleeping with other friends too, as it happens. I think the thing to do, for both of us, is to look at their actions. Rory has taken big steps, had hard conversations, made herself very vulnerable, and put a lot of thought and work into having you in her life, just as Gia has for me. Love will always be a bit ineffable in the abstract, but actions speak loud and clear. Congrats on your revelation!
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  #97  
Old 11-17-2011, 05:24 PM
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I've been posting on my blog about feeling jealous or not jealous about my loves possibly sleeping with other friends too, as it happens. I think the thing to do, for both of us, is to look at their actions. Rory has taken big steps, had hard conversations, made herself very vulnerable, and put a lot of thought and work into having you in her life, just as Gia has for me. Love will always be a bit ineffable in the abstract, but actions speak loud and clear. Congrats on your revelation!
Thank you Annabel. That is sooo true what you just wrote! It really does come down to actions, I couldn't agree more. I appreciate someone pointing that out for me, I really do.

Actually, after today's conversation with rory and this comment of yours, I don't really care anymore whether she wants to sleep with Ally or not. I know how much I mean to her just by looking at her actions which - as you said - speak loud and clear. Back in my happy place.

Come to think about it.. The ex-boyfriend that I mentioned earlier. Looking back, I can actually tell from his actions that he didn't love me. The last straw was when I was sick and needed a ride to see a doctor, he didn't want to take me there. He had some pathetic excuse (I don't even remember it anymore, but it really wasn't a good reason) not to take me, so I had to call my mom. Yeah, that was the day I left him because I realised that's how little he cared about me.
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  #98  
Old 11-17-2011, 06:42 PM
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^I'm glad you're back to the happy place.

I'm noticing a pattern. In my own head. I might have done this more (though I can't recall), but now I've caught myself twice. (This is going to be long, again, brace yourselves.)

For me, it's been obvious from the beginning of poly that I want equal relationships. I did not know, what precisely this means and what it looks like. Before poly I had the same thoughts (about a hypothetical poly situation), and I was thinking along the lines of "if there was a third person with me and Alec, maybe it would be fairest for us to get a divorce (maybe not immediately, but when the new relationship was on solid ground), so that all of us would be at the same legal standing". The idea of divorcing for that reason did make me uncomfortable, though, and nowadays I counter that thought with "even though the legal standing is important, it is not the essence of relationships, and thus we all can be happy and satisfied in the situation as it is". But I take this as an example that shows where I'm originally coming from: an extreme sense of fairness/equality.

Now, I've said this before, but this was influential: Veaux on fairness. By fair, or equal, we don't need to mean similar. To quote "symmetry is not the same thing as fairness". Indeed, it isn't always fair to treat everybody the same (see his examples of this: they are good ones). His reference to our mental 5-year old screaming "it's not fair!" is a good one. Though my mental 5-year-old is, surprisingly enough, not interested in what I want but in everything being equal between my partners. (Or, to think of it, maybe it's not so surprising that my inner child would be more inclined to please and keep everybody happy than I am consciously now as an adult.)

I'm afraid that in poly, my mental 5-year-old has the initial standing. When it's two people, I'm satisfied with any arrangement that makes both happy. My mental 5-year-old is all quiet and happy, because even in an asymmetrical situation, we are both the happiest when we get what we want. But somehow, when you throw one more person in the mix, the 5-year-old wakes up screaming, and I have to find really good arguments and explain them in a way that she understands to shut her up. That's a lot of work, I tell you. Particularly since I have to go through the same conversation with her with every little detail.

So far, I've convinced her of many things. Like, for example, it is OK for me to kiss the partner I want to kiss (assuming they have nothing against it) with the other present, without then thinking about "evening the score" by kissing the other one soon, too. I can do what feels natural, and stop keeping track. There are a lot of things like that, I can't even remember them all, because once she shuts up and you start doing it in a organic way (doing what you want because you want it), that starts to feel natural.

Now, I did have a point in this, but it gets lost in all the stuff I'm walking you through for context. I've written before that I feel pressured in the newer relationship to prove that it's as important to me as the old one. I feel that to do this I need to show that I'm prepared to change my life so that there is space for Mya and our relationship. I have no problem with doing this. However, I think there is a problem with the how I feel I need to do this. If the way to prove her importance is to strive for symmetry, I think it will come to conflict with the wants and needs of the people involved.

Now to the pattern. 3 weeks ago, Mya was here. The time point is the one where I made a rambling post about the fairness of the sleep arrangements, wondering whether I should sleep with Alec more nights since I spend more time with Mya when awake. I didn't come to any conclusion about that (because there are so many viewpoints to "fairness" that it's not always possible to objectively define what is fair). However, after thinking about it more, I suddenly noticed the real issue, the actual reason it was on my mind: I wanted to go to sleep with Alec that night instead of Mya (for which the most important reason was to get a longer night's sleep). This is the key to the pattern: I have a hard time recognising my own needs and wants. And there, I was unconsciously trying to wrap what I wanted into a nice little package of what is fair. I wasn't aware of that at first, I was spending a long time thinking about that particular issue, until it suddenly hit me that my motivation for coming back to it was not so much in fairness, but in my own want to do in a certain way.

I say pattern, because I had a similar epiphany yesterday about another issue. Not too different, it's about sleeping arrangements, but not so much about the ones going on now (they feel pretty much all right, although I might want to think about that more), but the ones in the future, when we all are at the same city. It's 3 years away, and yet I'm coming back to them over and over. In conversations with Mya, I've expressed things like "Alec may not be happy with dividing nights 50-50", and "it might be for the common good for us to sleep a bit less with each other and a bit more with the men (since they'll be sleeping alone when we sleep together). I now realise that those things are crap. I mean, technically they are true: Alec may not feel good about sleeping with me only every other day (and that is somewhat likely), and if the men don't enjoy sleeping alone and me and Mya are happy with fewer nights together, it might be a good solution to divide time a bit differently. But it finally hit me that those are not the reasons why this issue is on my mind. The reason is that 50-50 divide of nights is actually not what I want.

The reason for this is that I feel like sleeping together, and the same goes for many other everyday routines, is a more essential part of my relationship with Alec, than it is in my relationship with Mya. I think pillars might be a good metaphor. In my relationship with Alec, I'd say there are three main pillars to hold the relationship: one of them is physical closeness (all touch, sexual and non-sexual), the other is the everyday life we share when awake (including things like eating together, watching dvds, talking about our days), and the third is the time we share when going to bed and sleeping together. Obviously there are other aspects to our relationship, but these are really what holds us together. My relationship with Mya is different. With her, conversations and talking are maybe the most important pillar. Another important one is physical closeness, to which I inlude the both meanings of sleeping together. I do like to share everyday life with her, and I do like to have deep conversations with Alec; but the dynamics are different, so different things are essential. Thus, I think having a 50-50 divide of nights between Mya and Alec would be somewhat harmful to my relationship with Alec, while it is not essential to my relationship with Mya. Right now it feels like maybe sleeping two nights a week with Mya might work well, but obviously we'll see how everybody feels at that point.

I had a talk about this with Mya earlier, one where I was afraid (again to say this is what I want) and then cried because of relief I felt when this was no big news, and no big deal to her. She understood my reasons completely, and did not take it to mean that I care for her less or something like that. We agreed that I will try to be more conscious of the pattern, and also if she happens to notice me coming back again and again to same issue, she will ask me if there is something behind there that I would want. Happy happy.
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Last edited by rory; 11-17-2011 at 06:54 PM.
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  #99  
Old 11-17-2011, 06:50 PM
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Rory and Mya, I have to say that I think you two are a pair of cool, thoughtful, eloquent, and together chicks.
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  #100  
Old 11-19-2011, 12:47 PM
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Wow, nycindie, thank you so much. Your words made me feel really good, and I'm also happy to hear you think that, because I have a high admiration of your independent and yet loving approach to relationships.

--

Mya's now been here for a bit over two days. Last time she visited there were quite many emotions for all of us, particularly early in the week when she had just come here. This time it's been less emotional and more stable and relaxed. That's good, mind you. I'm not completely rid of the feelings of anxiety that rise in regards to both Alec and Mya being happy all the time, but the feelings have only come up maybe once a day for a short while. I've been able to let go of the anxious feelings pretty well when they come, so it hasn't been so tiring.

Me and Mya went to check out a gay bar yesterday! I haven't really been anywhere here, even though I've lived here for over a year now. All the gay venues are in the city centre, and it's just too much effort to go if I don't have anybody to go with (I don't have friends here yet and Alec doesn't enjoy going to gay bars). It was really fun! I'm thinking we'll make it a goal to always go somewhere gay when she's visiting here. Alec went out with some people he's getting to know here, and apparently one of them asked why I and Mya didn't join them, so he told him what the deal was. I was glad to hear that. The guy may or may not become a close friend, but I'm glad that he's becoming comfortable enough to talk about the situation to some people. His friends or family don't know yet, and I think it's good that he waits until he's ready to come out, there's no hurry. However, it would be good for him to have somebody to talk to besides me. Still, I do think he's going to have a lot of explaining to his closest people about poly (and, well, most of them don't know I'm bi, either), so I get why he would want to wait a bit, and he'll be in a better position to explain once it doesn't feel so strange to him (the strangeness factor is clearly decreasing all the time).

Today we're going to just hang out at home, and we have some really good food. So eating, playing games, and watching a movie (+ some internet time, as you can see) are in the plans for today. Tomorrow we'll make a trip together, since we now have the car and so can drive somewhere. I'm not too happy about all the costs having a car brings, but Alec needed it for commuting, and I have to admit it is fun to be able to just go and explore our surroundings!
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