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Old 07-10-2011, 06:59 PM
PipersGirl PipersGirl is offline
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Default My Story in Two Parts: Part I

Good afternoon,

I'm a straight mono female involved with a straight poly male, D. He has 2 other straight mono female partner, Ki and Ka. We've all been with him at least three years and are all over 40; none of us live with him. We're a closed group.

When D and I first started seeing each other, we agreed to an FWB. He told me about the others and that they were also ok with this. We had fun, great sex and developed a friendship. We work together, but that hasn't been an issue, except in finding time to be together due to work schedules.

I'm not wired to have sex regularly with someone and not develop deeper feelings for them; neither is his. I fought falling for him. The only way to avoid it was to end the sexual relationship after a short time and be platonic friends. I didn't do that; didn't want to give up the best, most liberating sex of my life. I admitted to myself about a 1 1/2 years ago that I was in love with D. I didn't tell him. I suspected he felt the same. We told each other when he was in the hospital last October (more on that below). It was a huge relief!

Until last October, each of our relationships with D was separate. I'd met Ki once and Ka a few times. Then, D got pancreatitis and was in the hospital for a week. The 3 of worked together to ensure that he was well cared for while in the hospital and after he came home. We all got along, but Ki and Ka developed a deeper friendship. They are a lot alike personality wise - very talkative and extroverted; I'm quieter and introverted.

D has always spent less time with Ki than he does with me or Ka. This was also true before either one of us were with D. I guess really "seeing" it triggered her. While he was still in the hospital, she started requesting more time with D. We talked about it. I didn't and still don't have an inherent problem with her getting more time, but I didn't want it to impact the time we shared. He agreed with me.

Because of the friendship that had developed, Ka took it upon herself to speak up for Ki. This went on for a couple of weeks with no resolution and finally D suggested that they form a threesome. He really doesn't want very much alone time with Ki - it has always been that way. He told me about this, but said that he didn't think it would come to pass. There was discussion back and finally there was to be a meeting on Saturday, 10-31-2010.

I was with D on Friday night and through Saturday, the 31st. We had a wonderful time - felt very close to each other. He asked me if I wanted to stay for the meeting and I said yes. After speaking to Ki and Ka, he then told me that the meeting was postponed because Ki couldn't come over that night, so it would just be Ka. I said ok and left.

D did tell me that he had some ground rules about the threesome if it did develop. First, there would be no sleeping together the first night; and second, when or if it did happen, there would be no penetration. So, I left that day thinking: 1. There wasn't going to be a meeting and 2. When there was, things would progress slowly.

Didn't see D again until the following Tuesday at work. I was still basking in the "afterglow". He said that there was something he wanted to talk to me about, so we went to my office. He said that Ki and Ka has mentioned all of us getting matching Claddagh rings and what did I think? I was caught off guard, but said it sounded good.

Then, he said that the meeting had went well. I told him that I thought there wasn't going to be a meeting. He said that Ki had come over later so he didn't call me to return. He said that if I didn't want to know I shouldn't ask. I was floored. We talked that same evening and he told me that the three of them had made love together and it had included penetration. He said he had told them that we'd made love Friday night and Saturday and he was very satisfied. I started crying and he asked me why.

I wasn't sure what I was feeling. Everything was so jumbled. The first thing that popped in my mind was that I can't compete with two women. There's no way I can do what they can. He said I wasn't competing. I meant as much to him as ever. After we got off the phone, I was up until 4am, crying. I felt like a complete fool. From the time I left his house on Saturday until Tuesday morning, I'd been glowing with what we'd shared and how close we were and how much it meant to us. Then I found out that less than 12 hours after I left, he was having sex with his other two partners. I felt that what we had shared meant nothing. That it, that *I* was that easily forgotten. I'd never felt pain like that.

Over the next couple of days, I tried to regain my equilibrium, to convince myself that what had happened between the three of them didn't change what we'd shared, nor his feelings for me. I couldn't. I was hurting and I felt betrayed. He did the very thing he said he wasn't going to do. And less than 12 hours after I'd been in that very bed with him. I felt inadequate - I surely didn't satisfy him sexually or emotionally if he was happily having sex with two other women so soon after being with me. And there was anger. At myself, at him, at Ki, at Ka and at the entire relationship…

We got together Friday night and attempted to discuss everything. That was a big mistake. I take my part of the blame because I was too emotionally raw to talk about it. As a result, things got heated and we both said hurtful things. I felt dismissed and he felt attacked. We went to bed and finally talked a bit the next morning and both apologized and we had sex. I assumed we'd made up.

Due to unforeseen circumstances, we couldn't see each other for a couple of weeks, but talked on the phone and texted. When I asked about getting together, he told me that he wasn't "ready" to be with me because of the fall-out from our argument. He knew that I had not intended to, but it had brought up a lot of negative emotions from the past and he was gun-shy about being with me, and while he had forgiven me, he needed time to deal. So, we didn't see each other (except briefly at work and two lunches together) for a month. During this time, he was spending lots of time and having lots of sex with the newly formed threesome. So I developed resentment toward the threesome because on top of the sense of betrayal, there was a feeling of abandonment, being replaced and that no one cared about me or my pain.

D told me that he had not expected nor "planned" for things to happen as they did that night; as the three of them were together, it just flowed naturally and there was no intent to hurt me or to mislead me. I told him that I didn't think he'd lied to me intentionally because if I thought that, we'd be done. I've always insisted on is honesty. In retrospect, I suppose I was naïve to think that he'd be in bed with two willing women having sex and not expect penetration to occur. I only thought it because that is what he told me. To this day, I still don't understand why he told me things would progress slowly and not include penetration. And maybe it doesn't even matter.

D and I started seeing each other again in December. There was awkwardness and for the next several months, I felt less important and less desired. In January, Ka found out that her rent was increasing a lot, so she moved in with Ki. There have been bumps in the road with that arrangement. The three of us girls had agreed to get together, once a month at least. Didn't happen for a couple of months, but I didn't think too much about it.

At the beginning of March, D asked me if there was something going on between the three of us. I said no and he told me that they'd asked him why the two of them weren't enough for him and why he needed a third woman and what could she (meaning me) do to for D that they couldn't do? I was hurt and pissed. He said that he'd told them in no uncertain terms that he loved me, wanted me in his life and that it wasn't open for discussion. He said he was disappointed that they'd even ask that.

I had knee surgery in March also and wasn't able to go to Ds for a couple of weeks. When we did get together, things were a little strained - there were unresolved issues. All that came to head a head a few weeks later. A good friend of D's died unexpectedly. There was definite hostility between Ki, Ka and myself when we went to the funeral. The following Monday, we had a "meeting" and talked. We cleared the air over some misunderstandings, misinterpretations and agreed to communicate more effectively. The next Saturday, we all went together to an event and had a good time. We also talked that weekend. A lot. It was tough and at times painful, but needed. The overall relationship was strengthened and the individual relationships were improved.

I’ll stop here because that’s the background leading up to where I/we stand now. I know this was long and thanks for reading! And comments are welcome.

Will post Part II, which includes the issues I/we currently face.

Thanks!

PG
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Old 07-10-2011, 07:08 PM
PipersGirl PipersGirl is offline
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Default My Story in Two Parts: Part II

Part II:

D and I have been truly enjoying and living our relationship since the end of April. We three girls have gotten together several times and had fun and we've all had good times together. But, there are still issues.

As it stands now, my time with him is Friday night through sometime Saturday. The exact time depends on his work schedule. Sometimes we have over 24 hours together, sometimes barely 12. Saturday night is for the threesome. Usually Ka stays with him Sunday night and some nights during the week. She doesn't work full time, like Ki and myself. The time that any of us spend with him depends on (mostly) his work schedule.

Some of the issues are stemming from our schedule with D. I, at most, get to spend one night a week with him. (In the past 9 months, I've spent 2 nights in the same week once.) Ki only gets one night a week with him and it's a shared night with Ka; she doesn't get an alone night. And that is still more time than she's ever had with him. Ka has the shared night with Ki and then spends anywhere from one to five more nights alone with him, though it's usually 2 or 3.

Then there's the issue of sex. Basically, Ki and myself have but ONE opportunity for sex with D each week, while Ka has numerous opportunities due to the fact that she is there so much more than either of us. D and I do usually have sex when I'm there and he usually has sex with the threesome when they are there. He and Ka are not having sex every day that she's there, but they do have sex sometimes. And even when they don't, she gets to sleep with him and cuddle, touch and wake up together; a luxury that Ki and myself do not have but once a week.

I am (mostly) ok with spending one night a week with D. I would like more sometimes and occasionally get two nights in a row. As long as we consistently and regularly have sex once a week, I'm (mostly) ok with that. Again, sometimes, it would be nice to have more. And I do struggle with Ka being with him so much more than me and with her getting more sex than me. And to be honest, I even struggle with the fact that D has three willing partners and never has to lack for companionship or sex.

Ki has the bigger problem with time than I do. I can understand that - she doesn't have any alone time with D. I've suggested that he take her to dinner alone at least once a month, but ultimately that issue is between the two of them. I just don’t like to be hit with the fall-out! She also feels that he treats her differently than he does me and Ka. And that he doesn't tell her the things that he tells us. She feels less valued to him than Ka or me. I don't know how to address that or if it's even my place to do so.

As for Ka, she admitted a few weeks ago that she is still jealous of me. Guess I'll digress… When D and I first started seeing each other, he was already having problems with both Ka and Ki which had nothing to do with me. I did not know about this nor did I know that he wasn't really spending much time either of them. I found this out about 9 months ago. Now, I did reap the benefits at the beginning of our relationship. We were spending more time together, going places together and having more sex. Knowing that, I can understand why Ka, and Ki for that matter, would have been jealous of me THEN. With the current dynamics, I can understand why Ki feels the way she does. But, for the life of me, I just can not figure out why Ka is still jealous or me when she has more time with D AND has more sex with D than I do. It truly baffles me. And it baffles D too. The only thing I can think is that she thinks that D loves me "more" than he loves her.

Right now, I am grappling with irritation and frustration that Ki and Ka get their panties in a twist over seemingly trivial things or things that we've all four discussed and agreed on.

An example of the trivial: Friday before last I went to D's from work. I spoke with Ki on the phone and it didn't occur to me to tell her that I was already at D's house as it's a given that I'll be there on Friday night unless work interferes. Well, Saturday afternoon, I got a text from her and she's upset that I didn't tell her that I was there when we talked. I apologized and explained there was no deceit intended on my part. That wasn't good enough and it went down from there. We haven't discussed it since then. Part of me thinks we should, but then I wonder if it's best to just let it be.

We all discussed and agreed that it's not a problem if any of us text or call when another is there. Week before last, D asked Ka why she doesn't keep the ringer on her phone turned up. She told him that she thinks it's rude to be on the phone with other people when she's there like Ki does. And that she thinks it's rude that D and I text when she is there. (And it's not constant!) If that's the case why did she then text D Saturday before last, knowing that I was there? That points to the biggest issue I have with Ka: She has a double standard and wants one set of "rules" for her, but another for me. I'm debating about discussing this with her, but don't want to open a huge can of worms…

Lord knows, I'm not perfect! I know I can be selfish, get upset over seemingly trivial things, be overly emotional and take things personally. Some days I have doubts that this relationship can last or even if it should.

But, I have done so much internal hard work over the past couple of years, examining long held beliefs and notions about what a loving relationship "should" be. I've looked at cultural and societal norms; dissected and analyzed my own beliefs and preconceptions and dealt with personal fears and insecurities. I take ownership of those things that are mine and deal with them accordingly. I've read forums, lists, websites, articles and books about polyamory. I've reconciled my spiritual beliefs with a poly lifestyle. I don't think Ki and Ka have done much, if any, of this research and/or soul-searching.

I told Ka that I had to decide if I wanted a monogamous relationship or if I wanted a relationship with D. I chose D. She agreed and even repeated my words to D. But, then he tells me that she recently told him that she, Ki and me all want the same thing: D for ourselves alone. We discussed this last week and I told him that in a perfect world, I would prefer a monogamous relationship, but if he told me that he wanted to be with me only, I would tell him that wasn't true. He might be able to do it and even be happy for a few months, but then he'd be miserable and therefore, so would I. Being monogamous is not his nature. I've accepted that and love him for who he truly is.

Recently, I've come to realize and accept that I am poly in the sense of trying to relate in a loving (not romantic or sexual) manner with D's other partners to form a family. I am romantically monogamous. I can only be in love with one person at a time and have that deep level of emotional involvement and commitment. Also had the revelation recently that I'm only mostly sexually monogamous. I could see having purely recreational sex with other men. D and I have discussed a MFM threesome, but the other possible participant is reluctant. I haven't pushed for it, because I'm not sure if I want that fantasy to become a reality. D has even said that he wouldn't have a problem if this other man and I had sex occasionally by ourselves. That's not something I want to pursue right now… maybe one day; A few months ago, I would have said never!

Poly/Mono relating is hard. I wouldn't chose another poly/mono relationship if this one ever ends. Would either be two way mono or two way poly in some form. Dealing with the feelings of "inequity" is on-going and I'm not sure if that will ever go away completely. I strive to maintain my balance and ensure that I respectfully express my needs and be respectful of D, Ki and Ka. And in the end, this relationship is worth it. It IS the best relationship I’ve ever had and all four of us look at it as long-term and committed.

I would appreciate any thoughts or ideas on dealing with the issues I’ve mentioned, especially the feelings of “inequity”. I think that is the master issue and most of the other issues stem from it; all three of us girls feel it in one way or another.

Thanks!

PG
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Old 07-11-2011, 09:51 AM
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sagency sagency is offline
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Feelings of inequity are understandable. After all, the four if you are human, and humans are imprecise. Even if D is precise in what he gives the three of you (your story says otherwise), your individual perceptions may highten differences.

As for the question if mono or poly, you're in a poly situation. If it quandary like a duck and has multipleoving partners like a duck, it's probably a poly duck. You may be mono-inclined poly or poly-friendly mono, but the important part is you're looking for answers.

The question I have for you is simple: what do you want to achieve? Where in life do you want to be? What does your future look like with D? And how dies it look if he were gone tomorrow?

I take that back. Thise aren't simple.

Your case sound like a classic poly tug-of-war. There's obvious hierarchy, but it's confused by mixed messaging. Know where you want to be could help thus group get you there.

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Old 07-11-2011, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PipersGirl View Post
I'm a straight mono female involved with a straight poly male, D. He has 2 other straight mono female partner, Ki and Ka. We've all been with him at least three years and are all over 40; none of us live with him. We're a closed group.
Having three mono partners sounds A LOT. I mean, one mono/polyship is hard enough to juggle, but with a busy workload and three women who each rely solely on him for their romantic and sexual needs - is D really up for the job?

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Originally Posted by PipersGirl View Post
We all got along, but Ki and Ka developed a deeper friendship. They are a lot alike personality wise - very talkative and extroverted; I'm quieter and introverted.
This might be one of the reasons why you are the target of jealousy.

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Originally Posted by PipersGirl View Post
D has always spent less time with Ki than he does with me or Ka. This was also true before either one of us were with D. I guess really "seeing" it triggered her. While he was still in the hospital, she started requesting more time with D.

Because of the friendship that had developed, Ka took it upon herself to speak up for Ki. This went on for a couple of weeks with no resolution and finally D suggested that they form a threesome. He really doesn't want very much alone time with Ki - it has always been that way. He told me about this, but said that he didn't think it would come to pass.
So the threesome was formed because of Ki wanted more time with D and he wasn't interested?

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Originally Posted by PipersGirl View Post
He did the very thing he said he wasn't going to do.

During this time, he was spending lots of time and having lots of sex with the newly formed threesome. So I developed resentment toward the threesome because on top of the sense of betrayal, there was a feeling of abandonment, being replaced and that no one cared about me or my pain.

To this day, I still don't understand why he told me things would progress slowly and not include penetration.
So he broke boundaries he had set upon himself, and had fullblown NRE with Ki and Ka which alienated you for a while. After that abated, you slowly got back together. Does he comprehend in any way why you felt so upset? Have you asked him why he felt there needed to be the boundaries in the first place?
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:56 PM
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Ki has the bigger problem with time than I do. I can understand that - she doesn't have any alone time with D. I've suggested that he take her to dinner alone at least once a month, but ultimately that issue is between the two of them. I just don’t like to be hit with the fall-out! She also feels that he treats her differently than he does me and Ka. And that he doesn't tell her the things that he tells us. She feels less valued to him than Ka or me. I don't know how to address that or if it's even my place to do so.
It reads as Ki has somewhat of an FWB or tertiary partner status in D's life. Nothing much you can do about it, and little that you should. D seems by your description to be less interested in her as a person and more in it for the kicks he gets out of two women together (and why would they do threesomes if they are straight anyway? That is besides the point, but still).

You don't have to deal with the fallout. Just say you are not interested, and she needs to discuss things with D, since you can't do anything about their relationship. Tough love, firm boundaries etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PipersGirl View Post
As for Ka, she admitted a few weeks ago that she is still jealous of me. Guess I'll digress… When D and I first started seeing each other, he was already having problems with both Ka and Ki which had nothing to do with me. I did not know about this nor did I know that he wasn't really spending much time either of them. I found this out about 9 months ago. Now, I did reap the benefits at the beginning of our relationship. We were spending more time together, going places together and having more sex. Knowing that, I can understand why Ka, and Ki for that matter, would have been jealous of me THEN. With the current dynamics, I can understand why Ki feels the way she does. But, for the life of me, I just can not figure out why Ka is still jealous or me when she has more time with D AND has more sex with D than I do. It truly baffles me. And it baffles D too. The only thing I can think is that she thinks that D loves me "more" than he loves her.
Probably a combination of you being the newest addition to the mix, feeling of insecurity (why would anyone need a third ), the fact that she and Ki are friends and more involved on every level with each other than you are with them.

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Originally Posted by PipersGirl View Post
We all discussed and agreed that it's not a problem if any of us text or call when another is there. Week before last, D asked Ka why she doesn't keep the ringer on her phone turned up. She told him that she thinks it's rude to be on the phone with other people when she's there like Ki does. And that she thinks it's rude that D and I text when she is there. (And it's not constant!) If that's the case why did she then text D Saturday before last, knowing that I was there? That points to the biggest issue I have with Ka: She has a double standard and wants one set of "rules" for her, but another for me. I'm debating about discussing this with her, but don't want to open a huge can of worms…
Ka sounds like she agrees to things for the fear of losing D that she is really not comfortable with, and then reacts with passive aggression when she starts feeling too uncomfortable.

And the worms are wiggling out their from the can as it is. Nothing compares to good communication. Though I think rather than come to Ka and say "I feel you have a double-standard when it comes to me" to say something more like "I am concerned that when we agree on something, you don't seem comfortable enough to voice your opinions, and I fear it might be building resentment between us" might be the beginning of a lot less defensive conversation.

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Originally Posted by PipersGirl View Post
I don't think Ki and Ka have done much, if any, of this research and/or soul-searching.
Good for you! Your journey is yours, you don't need to compare it with anyone else's. If you feel you have sacrificed for this relationship, you need to own up to it and not blame others for making you compromise.

Think of it this way; you have a lot to bring to this fourway relationship by the way of your research and inner experience. If others don't seem like they are putting in the same amount of effort, it is either because a) they don't feel the need to; b) they don't want to (scared, in denial, wishful thinking); c) they don't know how to; d) they are, they are just hiding it well. If it's c, you have a lot to give in terms of your understanding of poly and mono/poly dynamics, both shared by others and arising from your own experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PipersGirl View Post
I told Ka that I had to decide if I wanted a monogamous relationship or if I wanted a relationship with D. I chose D. She agreed and even repeated my words to D. But, then he tells me that she recently told him that she, Ki and me all want the same thing: D for ourselves alone.
What's with all this relayed communication and second-hand information? Go to the horse's mouth for the information you need and want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PipersGirl View Post
Dealing with the feelings of "inequity" is on-going and I'm not sure if that will ever go away completely.
I agree; what you have in your hands in a polygynous (one man, multiple wives) arrangement and they are notorious for their problems. You don't have the strong religious/cultural background nor the social sanctioning of a peer group that these relationships normally have. Since you were raised in a mono culture, and as long as you don't all live together with an equally split schedule in a true marriage-like arrangement, those feelings will likely persist (and living together would pose a whole new set of difficulties). As you've figured out this is what you want for the long-term and no longer harbour wishes of things turning monogamous with him, these kind of issues can be dealt with, however.
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:58 PM
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Well, it sounds like your foursome has worked through a lot of issues in the past couple years. It's great you, Ki and Ka all get along fairly well now.

It just seems boundaries need to be set about sharing time with your (very busy) D!

I was perturbed that he broke a boundary early on, having 3way sex with Ki and Ka that night when he told you they wouldn't be there, and if they were, there would not be penetration.

I also see he neglected the Ks when he first hooked up with you. Seems to me he gets carried away with NRE, first for you, and then, for the Ks when they became comfortable with 3way sex.

We don't come across a "polygynous" situation all that often here, but when we do, it can happen that there are infighting and struggles for primacy between the "sister wives." It's a shame you don't see the Ks doing the work you've done to research poly.

Have you seen the documentary series Sister Wives? That family happens to be in a religion that endorses one man/several women marriages. Maybe you all should watch it. In that case, the man had 3 wives, and a couple dozen kids, and they all lived in a big house. He went to the bedroom of each woman in order, like clockwork, one night per woman. But then he courted and married a 4th wife, who got a house just down the road. The original wives had to struggle to integrate her into their lives.

Personally, I have such a high sex drive, I'd be totally unsatisfied with just getting my husband once or at most twice a week, when he is getting sex and cuddles with a different woman every single night. I'd have to be the man in that situation! hehe

How does Ki feel about only getting D once a week, and even then sharing him with Ka? Why does Ka get to have several nights a week with him, when the other 2 only get one? I know she has a more open schedule, but should that have to mean she gets him on every one of those nights, when the other 2 still only get one night?

Only the 4 of you can decide this.
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Last edited by Magdlyn; 07-11-2011 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:32 AM
PipersGirl PipersGirl is offline
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Thanks for replying (to everyone who did!)

>Even if D is precise in what he gives the three of you (your story says >otherwise), your individual perceptions may highten differences.

Individual perceptions not only heighten the real differences - i.e. time together, attention, sex, etc - they also heighten words or actions that would seem to indicate a difference. For example, we all attended an event a few Saturdays ago. The 3 of us girls had agreed to ride together. I'd spent Friday night with D, so I rode with him to a gas station to ride with them the rest of the trip. He suggested that I ride back with him so none of us would have to stop for me to exchange cars. (We were outside all day in awful heat and were all hot and sweaty and wanting a shower.) Ka got very upset and said this showed favoritism to me. I know that wasn't the case in this instance, but even if it was, so what? There will be times when he prefers my company over hers, just as there will be time when he prefers her company over mine.

I've never expected nor wanted a tit-for-tat in regards to time, attention, sex or anything else. What I do want is balance. I don't want to starve for weeks, while they feast! This has only happened once in 3 years, but I was deeply hurt by it, so I am hypersensitive to the possibility of it happening again.

>As for the question if mono or poly, you're in a poly situation. If it quandary >like a duck and has multipleoving partners like a duck, it's probably a poly >duck. You may be mono-inclined poly or poly-friendly mono, but the >important part is you're looking for answers.

I agree that the relationship is poly and it's new ground for me; for all of us. I've been learning to relate within that paradigm and it's been like learning a foreign language and adapting to a foreign culture. And while D has had multiple relationships his entire adult life, this situation is different than any other he's experienced. We've all had a learning curve!

>The question I have for you is simple: what do you want to achieve? Where >in life do you want to be? What does your future look like with D? And how >dies it look if he were gone tomorrow?

Lol. Definitely not simple! I want to be happy in my personal and professional lives. I want to be where I am, but always learning and growing. An ideal future with D includes some form of shared living. Either a large single home where each of us has our own "apartment" or smaller multiple homes that are next door to each other. D owns a large parcel of land so it's doable in that sense, but not financially feasible right now. And we're not ready for that step anyway.

If D were gone tomorrow, I would be incredibly upset, hurt and sad. I would grieve the loss of our relationship in it's current form. I know we'd be friends after the process of letting go of the current relationship so we could form a different one. My life wouldn't be over and I'm sure that I would eventually love again, but it wouldn't be a quick or easy process.

>Your case sound like a classic poly tug-of-war. There's obvious hierarchy, >but it's confused by mixed messaging. Know where you want to be could >help thus group get you there.

D doesn't consider it a hierarchy in terms of what he feels for us. And he doesn't even consider it to mean anything that Ka is with him more than either Ki or myself. She simply has the time, whereas we don't. He doesn't measure the importance or value of an individual relationship by the quantity of him spends with that person, but rather the quality. I intellectually understand that, but emotionally struggle with it. Plus, I think there has to be sufficient quantity to have real quality.


PG
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:57 AM
PipersGirl PipersGirl is offline
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>Having three mono partners sounds A LOT. I mean, one mono/polyship is >hard enough to juggle, but with a busy workload and three women who >each rely solely on him for their romantic and sexual needs - is D really up >for the job?

It is a lot. And I've wondered if it wouldn't be better for him to have FB's or FWB's … truly no strings attached, but he's not wired for that any more than I am. He develops deeper feelings for women he has sex with regularly. Then I thought he might be better served to have one girlfriend and a couple of tertiarys, but that wouldn't work with the 3 of us. None of us would accept being a tertiary. And the fact is, he does care for and love each of us.

>We all got along, but Ki and Ka developed a deeper friendship. They are a >lot alike personality wise - very talkative and extroverted; I'm quieter and >introverted.
>This might be one of the reasons why you are the target of jealousy.

Could very well be. When we all began interacting more, they thought that I pulled away and didn't want to be involved. And they were right to an extent. I had to come to terms with the changes in the overall relationship, which facilitated changes in my relationship with D on MY time, not theirs. Then they have thought that I was pretending that their relationships with D weren't "real", that they were only friends. Hell, of course I knew they were real! I just didn't obsess over EVERY little thing that went on between him and one of them, nor did I want to know everything or be involved in everything.


>So the threesome was formed because of Ki wanted more time with D and >he wasn't interested?

That is why he suggested the threesome: Ki would get more time though it would be shared with Ka. But that is only part of the reason. He lived with 2 women previously for about 5 years and he missed having that. So, this threesome kills two birds with one stone.


>So he broke boundaries he had set upon himself, and had fullblown NRE with >Ki and Ka which alienated you for a while. After that abated, you slowly got >back together. Does he comprehend in any way why you felt so upset? >Have you asked him why he felt there needed to be the boundaries in the >first place?

In a nutshell, yes. I honestly don't know the answers to your questions. D and I have not had any in-depth discussions about it since the blow-up. I suspect he may understand intellectually why I was upset, but it doesn't register on an emotional level. He didn't think it was that big a deal because he was already sexual with both of them and didn't go outside the group. He didn't want to deal with my real pain of betrayal because he broke the boundaries he'd set. And no, I've never directly asked him why he felt the need for boundaries in the first place. If he'd not mentioned those boundaries, it wouldn't have hurt nearly as much. I still feel that all three of them entered this too fast and without considering the broader implications and how it was going to effect everyone in the relationship.


>It reads as Ki has somewhat of an FWB or tertiary partner status in D's life. >Nothing much you can do about it, and little that you should. D seems by >your description to be less interested in her as a person and more in it for >the kicks he gets out of two women together (and why would they do >threesomes if they are straight anyway? That is besides the point, but still).

Yes, she has always been more a tertiary. Now that she is spending more time with D than ever, she wants to be more integrated into his life and he doesn't really want that. But, for him the threesome isn't just for kicks - it's something he values in his life and both of them value it too. He gets emotional, as well as sexual fulfillment from it. The two of them aren't sexually involved with each other, but they enjoy the heightened sensations andemotions and are fulfilled from it also.


>You don't have to deal with the fallout. Just say you are not interested, >and she needs to discuss things with D, >since you can't do anything about >their relationship. Tough love, firm boundaries etc.

That is what I mostly do. I've have tried to help her see that D does value her. But, she will never believe that unless she quits comparing her relationship with D to the one he has with me or Ka.


>Probably a combination of you being the newest addition to the mix, feeling >of insecurity (why would anyone need a third ), the fact that she and Ki are >friends and more involved on every level with each other than you are with >them.

Probably true. I'm trying not to worry too much about it. That's her little red wagon and she has deal with it. And I do at times feel like an outsider because of their close involvement with each other. But, the truth is, I don't won't be as involved with either of them as they are with each other.


>Ka sounds like she agrees to things for the fear of losing D that she is really >not comfortable with, and then reacts with passive aggression when she >starts feeling too uncomfortable.
>And the worms are wiggling out their from the can as it is. Nothing >compares to good communication. Though I think rather than come to Ka >and say "I feel you have a double-standard when it comes to me" to say >something more like "I am concerned that when we agree on something, you >don't seem comfortable enough to voice your opinions, and I fear it might >be building resentment between us" might be the beginning of a lot less >defensive conversation.

Those are very good points. I hadn't thought of in quite that way, but it makes sense. And I like your suggestion of approaching her in a non-confrontational way. I do want avoid defensiveness on all sides.

>Good for you! Your journey is yours, you don't need to compare it with >anyone else's. If you feel you have sacrificed for this relationship, you >need to own up to it and not blame others for making you compromise.

I agree whole-heartedly. It is my journey and no matter what anyone else does, I'll continue it.

>Think of it this way; you have a lot to bring to this fourway relationship by >the way of your research and inner experience. If others don't seem like >they are putting in the same amount of effort, it is either because a) they >don't >feel the need to; b) they don't want to (scared, in denial, wishful thinking); c) they don't know how to; d) they are, >they are just hiding it >well. If it's c, you have a lot to give in terms of your understanding of poly >and mono/poly >dynamics, both shared by others and arising from your own >experience.

It's a combo of a, b & c. I do share things that I've learned from my own experience and from reading this forum, other lists, books, etc but sometimes it seems like doesn't really sink in. Guess that's the denial and wishful thinking kicking in. I sometimes get the impression that they both think (though especially Ka) that D will wake up one day and realize that he truly does only want/need one woman and it will her.

>What's with all this relayed communication and second-hand information? Go >to the horse's mouth for the information you need and want.

Valid point and something that we all agreed to do. And we have done it. We've called each other if something comes up and we need to discuss it. Sometimes D will share something with me about Ki or Ka because he's trying to understand and thinks I may have some insight. In those cases, I don't necessarily call them, but that is something to consider especially if something triggers me.

>Dealing with the feelings of "inequity" is on-going and I'm not sure if that will >ever go away completely.
>I agree; what you have in your hands in a polygynous (one man, multiple >wives) arrangement and they are >notorious for their problems. You don't >have the strong religious/cultural background nor the social sanctioning of >a peer group that these relationships normally have. Since you were raised >in a mono culture, and as long as you >don't all live together with an >equally split schedule in a true marriage-like arrangement, those feelings will >likely >persist (and living together would pose a whole new set of >difficulties). As you've figured out this is what you want >for the long-term >and no longer harbour wishes of things turning monogamous with him, these >kind of issues can >be dealt with, however.

All of this is true. It has been very difficult to internalize that what we shared isn't "wrong" or a sin. All four of us are Christian - grew up in mainstream Protestant denominations where the only proper place for sex was within a monogamous marriage between one man and one woman. And D considers us his wives, not his girlfriends or his "women".

I know that we can deal with any issues that come our way. Sometimes, I just get frustrated when I think that issues have been handled only to have them pop up again. Of course, I suppose that means that they weren't really handled...

PG
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Old 07-12-2011, 01:15 AM
PipersGirl PipersGirl is offline
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>Well, it sounds like your foursome has worked through a lot of issues in the >past couple years. It's great you, Ki >and Ka all get along fairly well now.

That we have! And I do genuinely like them both and they both like me. We get along very well, especially when it's just the three of us. When D is around, there is a change in the way we act and interact with each other and D. Guess it will just take time to get completely comfortable with that situation.

>It just seems boundaries need to be set about sharing time with your (very >busy) D!

We have do have some boundaries and they work fairly well. I don't know if any more would help. given the time constraints.

>I was perturbed that he broke a boundary early on, having 3way sex with Ki >and Ka that night when he told you >they wouldn't be there, and if they >were, there would not be penetration.
>I also see he neglected the Ks when he first hooked up with you. Seems to >me he gets carried away with NRE, first >for you, and then, for the Ks when >they became comfortable with 3way sex.

I think you are right about the NRE. And when the threesome started, he definitely wasn't thinking with the big head…and the same applied when we first started seeing each other.

>We don't come across a "polygynous" situation all that often here, but when >we do, it can happen that there are >infighting and struggles for primacy >between the "sister wives."

While we're not "fighting" for primacy, there is an underlying current of fear/insecurity. We've all thought: Does he love, desire, find more interesting, like one of the others more than me? I do think Ka wants to be "first" to him. He doesn't want that nor does he feel that way. She has said that her life revolves around D; Mine doesn't and neither does Ki's. I think because of that, Ka feels that she loves D more than Ki or I do and that givers her some kind of "privilege" that we don't have.

I had to overcome my own insecurities and I only did it through my own hard work. D helped, but ultimately, they were my issues and only I could resolve them. Now, I do feel secure in his feelings for me and in our relationship. Even with that, I still have a few nagging fears that I'm dealing with!

>Have you seen the documentary series Sister Wives? That family happens >to be in a religion that endorses one >man/several women marriages. Maybe >you all should watch it. In that case, the man had 3 wives, and a couple >dozen kids, and they all lived in a big house. He went to the bedroom of >each woman in order, like clockwork, one >night per woman. But then he >courted and married a 4th wife, who got a house just down the road. The >original >wives had to struggle to integrate her into their lives.

I haven't seen it. Ki and Ka watched it and bought the series on DVD and D watched it with them one weekend when they were over. I plan to watch it soon as I get the chance.

>Personally, I have such a high sex drive, I'd be totally unsatisfied with just >getting my husband once or at most >twice a week, when he is getting sex >and cuddles with a different woman every single night. I'd have to be the >man >in that situation! hehe

It's a struggle for me too! I have a high sex drive and I know Ka does. Not exactly sure where Ki's falls, but I think it's less than mine and Ka's. D does have a strong drive, but time is an issue and so is the fact that he's 50, not 20! Thank goodness for BOBs...

>How does Ki feel about only getting D once a week, and even then sharing >him with Ka? Why does Ka get to have >several nights a week with him, >when the other 2 only get one? I know she has a more open schedule, but >should >that have to mean she gets him on every one of those nights, >when the other 2 still only get one night?
>Only the 4 of you can decide this.

Ki isn't satisfied with it. She does want alone time with him and not even necessarily sexual. I still struggle with Ka being with him so much. It doesn't seem (and I HATE to use this word) fair that I get penalized because I work full time. She has an advantage over Ki and me through no fault of our own. Of course, D allows her stay those nights so I can't entirely blame her.

We had briefly discussed a rotating schedule whereby we'd all get approximately equal time to stay overnight, but that is very difficult to make work between his mine and Ki's schedule. At this point, we don't have a solution for the inequity of time issue. We just keep working through it day by day.

PG
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:05 AM
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sagency sagency is offline
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PG, Sister Wives is an interesting show. When you have a chance to watch it, you might want to pay special attention to hiw the wives deal with emotional needs in relation to their husband and how it affects the wives' interactions. You might even consider asking Ki and Ka if they'd watch it with you and use the episodes as a vehicle to other discussions. You've mentioned before that you're more introverted, so this may help get the conversation to areas that are hard to reach on their own.

PS: apologies for the typos. Most of my replies are on a smart phone before sleep, and the keyboard and screen size may review a challenge.

Best of luck!
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