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  #41  
Old 07-11-2011, 05:17 PM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Your last paragraph asked if I felt bored or entitlement when I fell in love with my wife....correct? The thing that you might be missing here is I signed up for one thing then the rules of the game were being changed. Before long its not the same game anymore. You and yours knew the rules up front ....agreed to the the rules before the game started ....lots different don't you think? "I" want to change the rules now. Self entitlement...maybe ...maybe not?
As a general statement (not commentary on your particular situation), rules change all the time in marriage. Kids would certainly cause a lot of changes in a relationship. People also get sick, really sick sometimes. Jobs are lost, or the conditions around them change (perhaps requiring prolonged separation, or different hours, etc.).

The difference with these changes, I suppose, is that they're all things we can anticipate when giving our vows. Things we can imagine happening and be able to say, "Yeah, we could get through that."

It's not a newly realized poly person's fault that they are changing the rules. There simply is not enough information out there for everyone to be aware of this concept before they're married. Poly people are marrying monos because that's what they're "supposed" to do: marry and settle down. And they don't realize they're not capable of it, because they never knew any alternative.

It's also not a mono partner's fault for being completely unable to accept this change in their partner, because really, how could they even have known such a thing existed before they married?
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  #42  
Old 07-11-2011, 07:53 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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Tp

I realize things change people change....the idea of self entitlement is I've changed and "I" don't want certain aspects of my life to change.....I want the stability and the family things to stay the same "I" just want these other things to change and I'd like to get you on board with it because I don't want to loose all that for this unknown quantity .....and here's how we'll do that ....blah blah blah...its going to be fine ....(see initial conversation)

You and RP and others have an advantage having set things up that way....

Imagine if some guy came home and said...

Hi honey I want to join the circus because I now realize I'm deep down a circus performer ...always have been ....dry cleaning was really my dads business and I want you and the kid to come and join too ....It'll be great... living on the train ...all the travel one end of the country to the other... .no house payment ..no car payments .....kids get to meet all these new people every few days ...kids can play with the animals on the off hours...learn animal care...training ...hell you and the kids could learn an act and be in the show as well ....so what do think ...? Is this going to be great or what ??? What do you mean no? ....Is it a fear heights or animals??? Well I can see your a little resistant to this here's how we'll do this ....Blah blah blah...its going to be fine(see above)... maybe you need therapy to find the real reason behind all these negative feelings.
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  #43  
Old 07-11-2011, 08:04 PM
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DH, if poly is not for you and you didn't want a polyamorous relationship, then you either went along with it anyway because you felt powerless to do otherwise or that voicing your objections would continue to be futile. What are you going to do now? Continue to feel victimized and criticize the whole idea of opening up a marriage OR really work toward having what you want in life? How good are you willing to let your life be?
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Last edited by nycindie; 07-11-2011 at 09:12 PM.
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  #44  
Old 07-11-2011, 08:36 PM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
You and RP and others have an advantage having set things up that way....
Well, we were mono for a year and a half, open for 6 months, then became poly when I fell head over heels for my boyfriend. We still had to put in a LOT of work to make this possible. And I firmly believe Indigo put in even MORE work than me. And why? What's in it for him?

Just because I was upfront about my needs sooner in my relationship doesn't mean a ton of work didn't need to be done. And it doesn't mean we're just cruising along right now. This is something we all choose and we all choose to actively maintain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Imagine if some guy came home and said...

Hi honey I want to join the circus because I now realize I'm deep down a circus performer ...always have been ....dry cleaning was really my dads business and I want you and the kid to come and join too ....It'll be great... living on the train ...all the travel one end of the country to the other... .no house payment ..no car payments .....kids get to meet all these new people every few days ...kids can play with the animals on the off hours...learn animal care...training ...hell you and the kids could learn an act and be in the show as well ....so what do think ...? Is this going to be great or what ??? What do you mean no? ....Is it a fear heights or animals??? Well I can see your a little resistant to this here's how we'll do this ....Blah blah blah...its going to be fine(see above)... maybe you need therapy to find the real reason behind all these negative feelings.
Actually, in a few months, Mr. A will be moving a several provinces away, 5 hours from the nearest city for his work. His work that he is very very passionate about. And yes, I think he's a bit selfish and it's not a smart move, but I don't own him. I have voiced my opinion. I'm apologetic that I'm not more supportive of him, and he's apologetic that his passion for his chosen career is detrimental to our relationship. But he's going to do it anyway. So I had to ask myself if it was more important to have MY dream of our relationship, or to have OUR relationship.

I'm working very hard to choose our relationship right now.

Last edited by TruckerPete; 07-11-2011 at 08:37 PM. Reason: typo
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  #45  
Old 07-11-2011, 09:00 PM
Chimera Chimera is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Tp

You and RP and others have an advantage having set things up that way....

Imagine if some guy came home and said...

Hi honey I want to join the circus because I now realize I'm deep down a circus performer ...always have been ....dry cleaning was really my dads business and I want you and the kid to come and join too ....It'll be great... living on the train ...all the travel one end of the country to the other... .no house payment ..no car payments .....kids get to meet all these new people every few days ...kids can play with the animals on the off hours...learn animal care...training ...hell you and the kids could learn an act and be in the show as well ....so what do think ...? Is this going to be great or what ??? What do you mean no? ....Is it a fear heights or animals??? Well I can see your a little resistant to this here's how we'll do this ....Blah blah blah...its going to be fine(see above)... maybe you need therapy to find the real reason behind all these negative feelings.
I suppose my issue with some of your posts, which is why I posted on this thread, is because of what I perceive as (and nycindie just noted) an attack on poly as being the issue, not your disinterest in it and pain from your own relationship. There's no advantage or disadvantage having it start one way or another. It's all work. One of my last partners decided she was mono after being poly, found someone, married him and is very happy (although, they too have issues). It was hard for us to get to a place where we are now best friends.

We don't own other people. The conversation you sketched out of above in terms of how it would play out in your home is one of the reasons I'm marriage-resistant, but not commitment-resistant. There's a sense of ownership and property that comes through. Would I be happy my partner was running away to join the circus? No. Would it hurt? Absolutely. But if I took a step back and it seemed that it would fulfill hir, then I would want to find a way to support hir without losing our bond. Who knows, maybe after awhile, I'd visit the circus and be happy that ze is happy.

Cut your losses, move along, find someone non-poly. But, if you don't examine your own issues -- relationships aren't games with rules we sign up for -- you might have problems again. Relationships are processes, they're brought into being as we relate, and change as we change, have new experiences. And again, because this jumps out at me from your writing -- people shouldn't be seen property no matter what vows, etc. they've agreed to.

Restless heart syndrome? How about for many women in this society, they give up so much of themselves, that after awhile they chafe at the restrictions? IMO, so much comes down to power inequalities. But, that's neither here nor there apropos your questions.
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Last edited by Chimera; 07-11-2011 at 09:06 PM.
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  #46  
Old 07-11-2011, 09:06 PM
TruckerPete TruckerPete is offline
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Sorry for the double post, but something else has occurred to me.

I think you might be confusing "starting out non-monogamous" with "taking my partner's needs into consideration" in regards to this "advantage" you speak of. Yes, I told Indigo in no uncertain terms that I wanted a non-monogamous relationship when we first started dating, but he wasn't ready. So I waited for him. And every step of the way, his input has been valued and we have worked together.

If I was single and went into new relationships stating upfront that I am poly, but with a piss poor attitude and inability/unwillingness to communicate and work with my partner, chances are good those relationships wouldn't last past the NRE.
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  #47  
Old 07-11-2011, 09:22 PM
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We sure didn't sign up for a poly marriage, that's for sure! But our journey started when I fell for our neighbor. I never fell OUT of love for my husband, I was not bored or restless or unhappy with him or our life. So the whole thing has been a huge swirl. But we have found a lot of positives in the midst of the negatives.

I'm not sure where your situation lies at this time, D, but I can certainly see the pain your personal experience has brought you. I am sad that you had to go through some ugly stuff. We've faced a lot of that, too, but we are really trying to focus on the positive.

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  #48  
Old 07-11-2011, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Rp
I always thought I was very clear what my wife's big offense was .....judgement or lack of....stupidity. For the record once again.
I thought this changed for you somewhere along the line. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
I'm not surprise at all that you and others don't see or understand what I was trying to get across because your relationships were based from the beginning on a non monogamous model. So this question or questions don't apply. You have to agree we got here from opposite directions.
I still started somewhere. We all did and we all faced ourselves in the realization that monogamy was not going to work for us.... I cheated before I realized I could actually obtain for myself a life with integrity without cheating and being open and honest. It sounds like your wife attempted to do that also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
As I said before.... this came out of a fire side chat that centered around a male friend of ours who repeatedly had affairs on his wife....which created a considerable amount of damage in his family and others in his life and practice as well. But he really doesn't seem to care enough to stop hurting those people.....
nice, well I hope he learned something when poly was brought up.... sometimes cheaters just don't know there is an option... it sounds like dude doesn't care though. Too bad, what he is doing is incredibly damaging to everyone. Including himself. Self destructive comes to mind for me.

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Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
there was a couple doctors present ...narcissism and self entitlement were throw up as possible reasons for such blatant disregard. I'm convinced my wife could have elements of narcissism, boredom, and self entitlement....those discussions we had were centered around what she wanted ...what she needed.....or rather her needs not being met....her being free to choose how to meet those needs .....her not belonging to me as possession .....her relationship with someone else doesn't effect her feelings for me....all very "self ".......centered..... conversations. Lots of sentences that started with I.... I'm not saying that was necessarily bad or wrong more as a fact....the way she chose to make her thoughts be known.
nope, not wrong at all. What was she suppose to do. Shove it down more so others could be happy? Meanwhile wasting her life to make others happy? I'm not saying she didn't make a mistake in how she approached all this. She certainly should of been more careful with her computer, but I doubt that she really knew what the hell she was doing and how to go about becoming healthy. Not many do when it comes to moving from monogamous thinking into poly.... hence this forum.

She is not at fault here from what I know of it. No one is. She sounded desperate, alone, sad, struggling and the lid blew off everything she had been shoving. That isn't narcissistic to me, that is a woman in deep pain. I really don't know as I don't know her and have not heard her story, but that is what I see about her.

I hope that those doctors of yours can see that there are two sides to every story and rise above their medical experience enough to see that there is maybe more going on than a diagnosis. Not everyone has a mental illness.... maybe they need to know more about poly. Did you invite them here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dingedheart View Post
Your last paragraph asked if I felt bored or entitlement when I fell in love with my wife....correct? The thing that you might be missing here is I signed up for one thing then the rules of the game were being changed. Before long its not the same game anymore. You and yours knew the rules up front ....agreed to the the rules before the game started ....lots different don't you think? "I" want to change the rules now. Self entitlement...maybe ...maybe not?
The rules did change... that is why my wife and I are not married any more and I am married to PN. That is why our lives adjusted to Mono being with us. The rules will change again.

You hear me talking of "boundaries" right.... I purposely avoid the term "rules." Everything changes, everything is fluid. I might not like it, it might not suit me, I might struggle with the result, but on thing is for sure.... change will happen again and again and again... I have become someone that embraces that rather than fights it or assumes my life will sit as is until I die.

I'm sorry this didn't all work out in your favour for you right now. You are very hurt and I get that. Eventually I hope you can see that it just wasn't working and go on to something that does. Something better for all of you. Right now its time to grieve and process. I'm glad you are doing that, but I'm sorry its hard. For what its worth it will likely make you a better man in the end if you decide to use it for positive gain rather than hate and negativity.
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  #49  
Old 07-11-2011, 11:19 PM
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Having read some posts after your response to mine I have to say that we have all been through some shit. Your shit seems huge to you right now as it does for most people when they are in it... but I doubt there is one person here who can say that they didn't go through HUGE life changes and struggles to get to a place of peace with themselves, their partners and the culture of monogamy that we live in....

What I would ask yourself if I were you is not what went wrong,,,, what details were there to indicate her failing at approaching you with her poly mind set, but what am I going to do now? Where will I and where could I go from here? It seems that poly is not an option for you. So you know that now. After some healing and some self reflection I would think that in knowing that you will be able to say that to perspective partners that poly is not something you want to experience again. What are you going to do to get to that place of peace with poly/BDSM/your wife/the questions you have of us who identify as poly? What are you going to do to get to that place of peace with everything about your experience in order to forgive, understand and move on?
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  #50  
Old 07-12-2011, 07:50 PM
dingedheart dingedheart is offline
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TP ,
Thanks for the input.

The quote that you highlighted of mine doesn't say or imply the you and the others haven't done a ton of work ....or that you are just cruising along. And if indigo has struggled the most its easy to see him doing the most work. The why... whats in it for him? ....I'm guessing so he can explore outside relationships as well...get needs met you can't or are unwilling to provide? That felt like a textbook answer. Really I don't know.... he and I have never spoken or chatted ... you must know the answer....because you're worth it ...that's going to be my final answer.

My little circus example was to demonstrate the size and shock of the proposed change and the pressure to convince the wife to get on board. One thing I left out was the husband wasn't in the backyard juggling pins or rings in his spare time for years ...or walking on a wire between the house and some tree. No plate spinning. Hasn't even been to the circus the last couple of years ....but read an article in magazine or a book....saw a story on oprah.
Another thing that's different is that the participation in this deviant lifestyle there is some serious risks attached. The healthy risk ....STD's and pregnancy, shunning of friends and family, problems with kids, risks to professional career which could have a serious financial ramifications. By proxy a partner is asked to take on all these risks.

I think with your example of Mr. A's career move your just scratching at what I'm talking about....Plug indigo into it....who you share a house with...longer history ...pets ...kids one day ....the shock factor will increase.

I didn't marry young. I put it off until I was 34 ....I dated many many women which I viewed as a good screening process.... I know....right now that process is under review ....the last one I should have ask for a complete psych work up.... hindsight 20/20 ... We dated a few years ....she left because I would commit .....4 or 6 months later out the blue she back begging to resume our relationship.....a yr or more goes bye and then I ask for her hand in marriage. She gets the fairytale wedding....the reception cost me just over 50,000 ....my dad and her dad kicked in as well...with the ring ...her dress and the honeymoon my end had to closer to 80.....Man I'd like to have some of that back. I guess what I'm saying is I was in.....all in...I put my money where my mouth was ..... mind, body and soul checkbook.


Tp in your second post you are connecting dots that are just not there. The highlighted comment does NOT say or imply you are not considerate to other partners needs. I'm sure you are very considerate to everyone's needs hence the longevity and happiness you all have. The point you make about attitude is a very good one .....I would add the personalities could be contributing factor as well.


Chimera,

On your earlier post you thought I might be afraid of losing her. NO not at all. Early experiences in my life have taught me to fear very little.

If the situation isn't relevant to you and you arrived at a poly relationship out of a mutual understanding how can you feel attacked or " the poly institution" is under attack. So what your saying is you've never heard statement like the ones I've said. I cant fucking wait to read something similar to what I wrote in a week or two ....and then see how you and the others react.....what comments or advice will be proffered.

There no advantage or disadvantage on start up. Really ....That's just ridiculous. In one situation the parties involved are mutually in agreement on how their relationship(s) will look and be. In the other situation one partner struggles to catch up or struggles to survive. Because of this struggle and resistance or reluctance ....the need for constant care and reassurance and a higher level of awareness by the initiating partner just seems a given. Constantly explaining or reassuring or just happily swimming off in different directions and dealing with the problems when they come up. Way different in my opinion. I'm Not saying there is no work or no problems ....I know there is ...just saying that quite a few would be eliminated right off the top.

I am dating 2 very lovely women.....they have more or less pursued me. Does this make me poly? Do I have to give back the can huggies and the steak knives? the new mono recruiting gifts......thats why no one get a toaster oven.... it changes every 6 months . The one women just out of the clear blue dropped off a strawberry rhubarb pie.....Wow she really makes a great pie....it was really outstanding.

Carma,
thanks for the input....

So you didn't sign up that way ...do you see an advantage of having it set up that way....its in debate ....see chimera comments.

You said "we" found lots of positives ....what are the positives your husband has found? You said earlier that you acted as a spin doctor some of the time.

I think it great that you try to focus on the positives.....and that's certainly the right attitude ....I'm trying to think what I'd list in that column.

out of time for today D
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