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  #21  
Old 07-15-2011, 08:52 PM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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Hi ID!

Maybe instead of telling her that she doesn't know you as well as she thinks she does, you can suggest that the two of you share some time to really talk about things, without the assumption that you know everything about who the other person is. Acknowledge that many times with a long term relationship, we stop really seeing the other person and start taking shortcuts and putting them in boxes and don't see them changing and adapting, or don't see that we put them in the wrong box.

There's a few really cool party games that basically have random questions that you choose and answer, and it starts conversation. I can't for the life of me remember the name of it, but seriously... it might be a fun evening for the two of you to talk about new things or old things with new perspectives. Like NYCindie said, it's great that there is still more to learn, time to capitalize on it and use that to build new ties and bridges.

I'm actually going to steal this idea for when hubby comes home because we definitely have that issue as well. He hasn't really seen ME in a long time, and I still see him in terms of old issues and problems. We really do have to sit down and meet each other all over again.
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  #22  
Old 07-16-2011, 09:48 PM
idrider47 idrider47 is offline
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Default I think we've reached the end....

So, this is Rider continuing on my journey, trying to discover the root of all the problems Iíve been having this week, and figure some things out.

I would like to state up front here that we are struggling with the gravity of what this thread means. I wrote the post and RBR has read it and given her approval to post it.

For the remainder of this post, I want to define the terms that I will use, and what they mean to me so others can understand. I am NOT saying that this is the only meaning for these words, just saying that this is what I mean when I say marriage, autonomous, or independent. I really donít want to offend anyone by the use of these words, so please let me say in advance that Iím fully open to the fact that there are many different ways to use these words and give them the meaning that best suits you Ė thatís all cool!

Marriage Ė a commitment between two people, that includes with it a deep entanglement of emotion, devotion, physically and sexually, finances, it basically includes the entangling of two entire people, everything about them. They become partners in everything, incur a responsibility to the other spouse, supporting and loving each other through their lives together. In an arrangement like this, all important decisions would be made collectively.

Autonomy Ė an autonomous person makes all their own decisions, is not entangled with anyone else, may chose to consider or consult others in their decisions, but the key here is that all decisions are made by the individual, not collectively. An autonomous person is not responsible to any other individual.

Independence Ė I see independence as lying somewhere between married or entangled, and autonomous. An independent person could be married, and does likely include significant entanglement, but also has a strong sense of self, needs to make some (or even many) decisions on their own, often needs alone time, etc.

Again, please donít argue over the terms and definitions. The idea here is to be sure that I can clearly communicate.

What I think I have learned this week:

In order to make sure that I never had an affair or cheated on RBR, I made her my whole world, I looked to her for anything that I needed from a woman, spiritually, emotionally, and sexually. I have had other female friends, but if there was ever an attraction, I gently moved away from the relationship, just to be sure that it was never an option to cheat on RBR. This worked to ensure that I never had to make that choice. If itís not an option, it canít happen. That worked for our 20-year marriage, but it also created a thick entanglement between us, something that moved beyond entanglement into codependence. I knew she was my whole world, but I did not know how deep it ran, that I was actually what some would consider codependent with her.

RBR desires autonomy, plain and simple. She wants to be able to do what she pleases, make her own decisions, and not incur a responsibility to anyone else. She does desire some entanglement, but that too is on her terms. She decides where she is willing to be entangled, and the terms of that entanglement.

I think I want entanglement, maybe even codependence. I want to be very intertwined and partner in all things. And given the definitions above, you should be able to immediately see the rub.

When RBR and I started this journey, Iíve found that it was with some pretty high naivety. I thought poly would mean adding new love and relationship to my life. It would mean granting and receiving more independence in our relationship, which was necessary to facilitate each of us having other relationships, but in general the overall effect would be adding, not taking away.

I think what happened as we have moved into this is that I discovered RBRís deep sense of having been controlled, and her longing to be free of any responsibility to me. She wants autonomy as defined above.

The way Iím viewing things, marriage is closed, and could not include other emotional, physical and romantic relationships. Autonomy is incompatible with marriage, as the entanglement and partnering that comes with marriage is exactly the opposite of autonomy.

Independence is somewhere between the entanglement of marriage and autonomy.

RBR wants autonomy, and in order for me to grant that, it meant that the deep entanglement that I had built over the marriage had to be dismantled. I think this means that the ďmarriageĒ as I have known it is over. I think this is what the deep sense of profound loss and hopelessness that I have been experiencing this week has been all about. Mourning that loss.

RBR is not asking for a divorce at this moment, she wants to continue to be legally married, raise our kids together, own a house together, live together, etc., but she also is all about her autonomy. She wants to make all her own decisions and not have any responsibility to me for anything. I will be part of the relationship between RBR and I, but basically have no part in any other relationship she chooses to have.

The autonomy RBR seeks she also grants to others, so I will have the same autonomy she desires, freedom to make my own decisions and have the responsibility for them. The difference is that this isnít what I want.

This makes RBR sound selfish, or the bad guy here. I donít think that is the case. RBR deserves the freedom to pursue happiness in life just as anyone else.

So, I think autonomy means that she is in a relationship with me at her own pleasure. She will grant love, devotion, time, and even entanglement in her terms, to what suits her. I on the other hand have the option to accept those terms, negotiate for other terms, or leave the relationship.

Iíve been all over the map emotionally this week, so no decisions are being made. Iím just trying to understand what Iím feeling and why.

The deep emotional problems Iíve been experiencing this week are due to me coming to the understanding of how deeply incompatible RBR and I have become, and the ripping and tearing that has occurred in me as she separates herself from me to gain autonomy. It has bothered me that this seems so easy for her. In truth, in our discussions it is coming out that she probably left the marriage some number of years ago; itís just all coming out now.

She is sad that this has all occurred, and she never meant for this to be happening. As I started this post, we entered poly thinking we were opening our marriage to new love and relationship to be added to what we have. As it turns out, this led to the discovery that we really didnít have anything left.

I still love RBR very much and she says she loves me, but the new RBR is incompatible with me. I cannot love her as the autonomous person she desires to be.

RBR doesnít like these words, as they go down very hard, and make us both sad. The problem is that I want entanglement and she wants autonomy, which I feel are mutually exclusive.

Weíre not having an emotional meltdown today, but we are both very sad, as I think that this means that weíve come to the end of our marriage.

Itís amazing how unemotional this is at this moment. Very sad though.

We are going to give it some time to make this decision. We talked about perhaps getting marriage counseling from a counselor that was onboard with poly. But it will really all come down to RBR deciding what she wants. I canít stay with the new RBR as described here.
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IDRider47
married, heterosexual male currently in an a newly opened relationship; married to RunBabyRun
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  #23  
Old 07-17-2011, 06:01 AM
Minxxa Minxxa is offline
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I relate a little to this post. I too have been very enmeshed with my husband, to the point where I made him my world to a certain point. I am also in the process of unmeshing (LOL, I don't think that's a word) us, and it's difficult for me to do that and still feel connected to him. I am building a life of my own, for myself, so that I'm living my life as an independent person WITH my husband instead of living this fully enmeshed live we have lived.

It hasn't been easy. Not so much the finding my own way part, but as I do that I feel less and less connected to him-- at least not connected as I have been. And yes, there has been a feeling of loss. I just thought a couple of days ago that the painful feeling of loss may just be a side effect of that ungrappling that's going on... that pulling myself out from him and back into myself, it's a definite change.. and yes, there is loss to that. Hopefully there is something to gain as well (I'm pretty sure there is) but I'm not there yet.

As far as autonomy goes, I have had the same feelings at times that my husband seems to just do whatever he wants regardless of how I feel about it and my opinions on the matter. I thought about that a lot recently, and it's something we will most definitely be discussing when he gets home. The fact is, no relationship of ANY type can survive if somebody does whatever they want without considering the others' feelings. A friendship can't survive if one person does what they want, and runs over the other person saying "this is what I want to do, if you don't, then fine but I'm doing it anyway". A child/parent relationship can't last that way... i really don't think ANY relationship can survive that. Somebody who makes their own decisions without regard to anybody else will end up all alone eventually because NOBODY wants to be in a relationship with somebody like that-- not even the people who do that to others. I guarantee if I just did what I wanted regardless of what my husband thought or felt we'd be done in a very short period of time because he would not like it, would not be able to handle it and our relationship would be killed. My guess is if you did the same thing to RBR, did what you wanted without regard to how she felt... she would not like it. Nobody wants to be involved with somebody like that.

We are all responsible to other people at some point in our lives, whether it's our employers, our partners, our children, our family or our friends.
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