Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > General Poly Discussions

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-27-2011, 01:54 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New England USA
Posts: 1,231
Default

Ignorant (I wish you'd picked a different name - I hate calling anyone that !)

First - PLEASE don't be defensive about comments I make. I'm just trying to help you get some clarity. Defending means you really aren't listening because you have shields up. No change of gaining anything there - right ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
Did you notice the username?

Why are you saying I'm the reason the reason he has been repressing this for 15 years? I have only known him for 8. If he is only awkward about this around me, why does he want me to participate?
I never said YOU were a sole reason for anything. But you- at least it seems from your writing - are one MORE - that is uncomfortable with being around male/male sex play.
Why is it important that he's uncomfortable around you - AND that he wants you to participate ?
Think about it..................
He cares about you. He wants to be with you. He wants you on the same page ! He wants YOUR APPROVAL ! And probably more - your excitement.

He may not get it (your stamp of approval). That will be a disappointment but whether it's a fatal disconnect is yet to be determined. Sometimes we can come to respect major differences our partners have even if we will never line up with them. Sometimes we can't/won't.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
I don't feel I've earned the bigot tag you need me to wear for speaking up about my own awkwardness in hte mix of something he feels awkward about and has for long before he knew me.
Ok - have NO CLUE where you pulled this out of. That's a pretty major example of reading stuff BETWEEN the lines that isn't there. Again, apparently something I've said (or alluded to) has a connection in your own mind to something !
All this is about is that (from what/how you've written) you are threatened my any male/male sexuality with anyone connected to YOU. As long as it's at a distance you are indifferent. So in the end, it may be more of a view of sex/relationships as some competition. You allude to as much in a later post.
If that's true, the issue with homophobia is a bit of a mask because it's just hiding a different problem. But my instinct (whatever that's worth) is that it's a little bit of each - not all one or the other. I think you find homosexuality (male or female) more disgusting than erotic.
THAT"S OK !! You are fully entitled to your own personal opinion. You just have to acknowledge that there is another half of the population that won't agree (or maybe be compatible) with you.

Leaves you two choices.
1> Limit your connections to people who see/feel/think like you do.
2> Take a fresh look, open your mind, try to understand what the other half sees and feels. [/quote]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
But you're right, it isn't worth arguing about.
There's no 'argument' - only discussion............

GS
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-27-2011, 09:11 PM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,639
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I'm just wondering if you can put your sex with him on hold for awhile. Sometimes having sex, just to prove a point or to be falsely close adds more distance and more confusion and resentment. It sounds like some heavy talking using a lot of empathy, kind words, feelings and requests would suit you more.... shut the movie off and talk.

He needs to start dating men I think.... you don't need to be involved in that. If it doesn't interest you then don't be involved. It sounds like you told him it repulses you in some way. So why not take it back. You could say, "look honey, I had never thought of man sex before and it quite alarmed me and the thought of it didn't make me comfortable. You go have man sex all you want, I just am not interested in participating.... I would be more interested in seeing that you are happy and your needs are being met on your own." That way he knows you love him, knows you are not going to be involved but are there to be a rock while he figures out how to deal with the prospect of finding a man.

Having a partner sometimes means rising to the occasion and helping through their issues. This is a big one for him. You can help him simply by smiling, being calm, not reading into it so much and being firm about your boundaries. The other part is to listen and reflect what he says. This is for him to figure out is seems, there is a history there for him. What a gift it would be if you were there as he dealt with this. It sounds like its coming to a head with all the porn he watches, what he has expressed to you etc.... you have become wrapped up in that for some reason and that is not necessarily healthy. You are not part of that, he is an what his desire is. He is independent of you and you of him. You can observe each others life and love them regardless, but no one can take on your issues and self work for you.
Having read all subsequent posts; I am still going with my original post. It seems that you might have to get past your own disappointment and fear to get there.

As the wife of a bi man, I can honestly say that boys need to be boys as far as sex goes. I used to participate, but it got boring after awhile anyway. Meh, I let it go, decided not to feel threatened but have comperiosn and did my own thing. I decided to trust he still loves me and needed to have nre with his new discovery about himself. He came back to me and it settled down in time.

It sounds to me that you don't really know why he wants you to participate (I wasn't referring to GS's comments, he just inspried me to ask). If you don't know then maybe having some guenuine caring curiousity might help. I'm going with my first thought of turning off the movie, refraining from sex that neither of you seem to be enjoying and talking some of this stuff out. It seems you don't have answers to some pretty obvious questions. Its so easy to jump to conclusions (especially if you are frustrated, fearful, and confused, even disgusted) if there isn't some knowledge. Assuming and having expectations don't really work I find, asking and being curious and welcoming of emotions and vulnerablitiy means getting to the root of issues in order to figure out how to make changes to a situation.
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-27-2011, 11:26 PM
Ignorant Ignorant is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
homophobia
There it is again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
THAT"S OK !! You are fully entitled to your own personal opinion.

Leaves you two choices.
1> Limit your connections to people who see/feel/think like you do.
2> Take a fresh look, open your mind, try to understand what the other half sees and feels.
I'm only going to put this to you one more time. A person who has no interest in and would rather not be hanging out on top of a skyscraper is not the definition of someone with acrophobia. A phobia is an irrational fear of something. Not simply a lack of interest or lack of preference. Having a preference to not participate in an activity someone else might well desire is not a clear indication of having a PHOBIA. Perhaps I was just born to not want to participate in this kind of sexual activity? Maybe you can help by praying with me till I want what I have never found myself wanting and currently, still don't want?

Yes the above was a sarcastic statement. But seriously do you not see that you are pigeon holing me based on the same line of thinking that has homosexuals discriminated against? They get told to try real hard to be straight. Here you're suggesting I either divorce or get adjusted to be more willing to participate in a sex act I have no desire for. My partner has tried to adjust his sexuality for almost half his life - it didn't work for him so I don't see why you think it will work for me. Why does homosexuality get to sit on "just being how one is" but other people must be more flexible?

My attitude about group play, not just group play involving male homosexuality has changed due to bad experiences. I've come to feel anxiety over the aftermath. This is about the extent of my irrational fear. But hey, I do not wish to leave anyone hurting again. I do not wish to deal with vidictive actions by someone who feels hurt over having had group sex with me and my partner. This has been the case for 5 years now. While at one point I had interest in group sex, it never entered the realm of sex I always believed the participants involved would prefer I, for my gender, not be included in. I get that this is the pinnacle of my ignorance, I obviously lack exposure to the bi male mind. And hey, not for nothing I'm a bit sore that I could have been benefitting from 8 years of exposure to this if my partner had been more upfront about his desires. Now I'm trying to play catch up to 15 years worth of angst. BUT its not due to an irrational fear of homosexual sex. It is fear but its over the sensation that I've been living with a stranger for years and wondering if I've met the real him yet. Nothing irrational about that and my feelings about it are not simple OPINION. What makes me feel irrational is when I'm struggling and people tell me I am merely being homophobic. What is the point of arguing -I'm sorry - discussing this with you when you keep missing the point? You don't even see me. I should want to get answers from you who seems willfully blind?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-28-2011, 12:01 AM
redpepper's Avatar
redpepper redpepper is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 7,639
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
I'm a bit sore that I could have been benefitting from 8 years of exposure to this if my partner had been more upfront about his desires. Now I'm trying to play catch up to 15 years worth of angst. BUT its not due to an irrational fear of homosexual sex. It is fear but its over the sensation that I've been living with a stranger for years and wondering if I've met the real him yet. Nothing irrational about that and my feelings about it are not simple OPINION. What makes me feel irrational is when I'm struggling and people tell me I am merely being homophobic. What is the point of arguing -I'm sorry - discussing this with you when you keep missing the point? You don't even see me. I should want to get answers from you who seems willfully blind?
GS called it as he saw it I think.... we all do. I thought of homophobia too... after all, some people don't know they are about certain aspects of homosexuality until it comes up. You are right, we don't know you from Adam. We are text on the internet... we can't read your mind and we certainly can't tell you what is going on. You can tell us what is going on and if you disagree with what people say or they are misinformed then you can correct the assumptions as they come.... there is not reason to take it personally. If you don't like what someone says and it gets you worked up, ignore them and either come back to it or don't. There is no reason to assume that they are out to accuse you of anything. That is the beauty of on line forums; you get a really direct response to stuff that other people, who are actually in your life might not give you. GS isn't blind, he is questioning what is going on for you.... you might be some super star gay activist for all he knows... he wouldn't until you fill him in... so homophobia isn't it... we got that. *check* Lets try another avenue now huh?

So go talk to him then.... it doesn't seem you will get over that sense of betrayal that you are fostering as a result of thinking you have lived with a stranger all these years on your own... talk to the man. Sit and LISTEN, and love him, and swallow your resentment for the time you think you lost and start allowing him to be vulnerable and safe around you... it seems with the attitude you have at the moment he would be afraid of you. I would be if someone I love and trust was hurt and angry that I had made a discovery that I don't have to hide any more; that I decided to come out to myself. I wouldn't want to open my mouth if I thought you thought you were living with someone you didn't know.... he is the same man, just now he has discovered he is unable to keep his desire at bay any more. That doesn't make him different, that makes him MORE himself and therefore potentially more whole, more grounded, more proud, more full of self esteem, more respectful to himself.... all that is a GOOD thing and really, to me anyway, more worth being with.

I personally have no energy for anyone that isn't working out their stuff and allowing me to witness that. I understand you are struggling, but he is more and I really don't get the sense that you see that. I'm sorry you are hurt but I really think that directing your attention to him and caring is going to mean it is mirrored back to you. You get your needs met when you give. All I am getting from you is that you want something that doesn't exist any more, he wants something to change and the two of you are not giving to each other....
__________________
Anyone want to be friends on Facebook?
Send me your name via PM
My blog
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-28-2011, 02:18 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New England USA
Posts: 1,231
Default

Hey there,

Ok - I'm to let this go at this point. Either I'm a poor writer or you're a poor reader/listener. Or more likely it's just a language/cultural barrier. But whatever the case, I'm 'red flagged' at this point so anything I say is worthless. So why say anything - right ?

But just for the benefit of others who may be - or will - follow this thread I want to leave this........

I may have thrown the term 'homophobia' around loosely. I do that a lot with terms and forget that some terms really have deep seated trigger associations. I tend to use any word or phrase metaphorically to convey a picture in as few words as possible. No guarantee of grammatic accuracy

Homo = 'same sex sexuality' , 'phobia' = fear'. Pretty basic and in this case I think - not inaccurate.

Nuff said........

Here's my summary as I see it........

1> You are not comfortable with same sex play in your presence. No judgement as to where that comes from or why. Doesn't matter. UNLESS it matters to you !

2> You view sexuality in a relationship with somewhat of a competitive edge. This is VERY common. Also very self defeating. You being opposite gender don't feel you could 'compete' with a same gender person. Therefore - fear & discomfort. Unless you develop a different 'view' of sexuality that competitive stance will always be a potential source of problems.

3> You are a bit defensive that you feel something was 'hidden' from you for many years that if you had known earlier might have changed your feeling/opinion of your hubby and maybe whether you even would have chosen to be in a relationship.
it WAS hidden - for good reason. Sad as that is. Your position and reaction is fully self explanatory why that is !

4> You are especially uncomfortable with the idea that you are being forced/manipulated by your hubby in a direction you aren't comfortable with. The reality as "I" see it, is that he's hoping desperately that being more involved may sway your opinion because he want's both in his life. You and a male lover(s). He want's your approval and love.
You are looking only at your own needs/desires.

5> Your claims to the nobility and altruistic motivation of "not wanting to hurt anyone else" (as part of a group sex scene) I find as little more than self deception. A smoke screen. But that's just 'my' opinion and we all know what opinions are worth.
I can safely say there's little risk involved in a bi guy playing with you and your hubby for the pleasure and eroticism of it being 'wounded'. Is it impossible that a guy might hope for more (a deeper relationship) and be let down ? Of course. But history points to the fact that the odds of that are so small as to be insignificant.

Sorry - got to run..............

Good luck !

GS


[
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-28-2011, 02:34 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
Custodian
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: new england
Posts: 3,221
Default

"Ignorant", what are you asking for here. If you don't want to have sex with two men, don't want to watch two men have sex, then DON'T. If someone is holding a gun to your head to try to FORCE you, see if you can get away from them under the pretense of using the ladies room or something, and go to the nearest neighbor and say "Please help me. Two guys are trying to force me to watch them have sex." I'm pretty sure this would be considered some form of rape and/or kidnapping, and there are laws against both of those things in most places that have internet access.

Good luck to you.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-28-2011, 03:04 PM
Magdlyn's Avatar
Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Metro West Massachusetts
Posts: 3,724
Default

I'd just like to request some gentleness here. Ignorant is struggling with very difficult ideas about sexual preference and group sex.

Ignorant, please PM me if you are too overwhelmed to talk more publicly here for now.
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-28-2011, 05:04 PM
SourGirl's Avatar
SourGirl SourGirl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: South of an Igloo, North of a Desert.
Posts: 885
Default

Yikes.

@ OP :

I feel bad you`ve been labelled as some kind of homophobe.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, if you aren`t all rah-rah-rah-horny over something, it MUST mean you are 'phobic'.

Seems a simple case to me, of you feeling pushed into something you don`t want to do. Substitute BDSM where bisexuality is, and everyone would be bashing your SO for trying to pressure you into something, you don't want to do.

I do believe, however, that your SO is basing his ability to feel accepted, and lose his feelings of 'wrong', on YOUR reaction.

Thats not going to work. He needs to learn to accept himself for who he is.

You do need to be understanding, but not at the expense of your own abilities. Do some reading, and research. Find things you can do, to help him feel like he isnt less of a person in any way. help him, help himself though. Not lean on you for 'proof.'

I would also suggest to people reading this,..sheesh, give her some time. TRUST is a huge part of any relationships ability to move forward. She is just learning something about her SO. Wether he intentionally, or unintentially kept this hidden, doesn`t mean her ability to work through this is going to be any quicker.

Right now she seems to be having a gut-check. That is a good thing. The fact she is asking questions, means she wants to figure out a way to handle this.

Let her get over the fact, that she feels like she is just getting to know him. Then when they are back on track, she might be more open to other things, who knows ?

...and I second Mags approach. PM`s might be more beneficial at this point.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-28-2011, 05:12 PM
NeonKaos NeonKaos is offline
Custodian
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: new england
Posts: 3,221
Default

I hope my message didnt come across the wrong way. I was trying a dramatic way of saying that you should be true to yourself and not pretend to be interested in things for someone else's sake, and fuck them if they say it's a phobia. In other words, you dont have to prove how not-uptight you are to the world.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-28-2011, 05:40 PM
nycindie's Avatar
nycindie nycindie is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Apple
Posts: 7,373
Default

When I first read the OP's first post, I suggested therapy simply because I think this issue and the struggles she is going through are too big for an anonymous forum on the internet. Different readers will tune in to different aspects of the post, might gloss over other aspects, and not all of the responses will resonate with the OP nor feel particularly helpful.

Ig, what comes through loud and clear to me is your anger. And I really don't feel this is the most helpful venue for you to get all this sensitive stuff out and look at it in order to constructively address what's going on in your relationship. So, I hope you and your hubs can find a way to look at the issues and express what's going on for you in a safe environment, like an understanding therapist's office or private conversations.
__________________
The world opens up... when you do.

"Oh, oh, can't you see? Love is the drug for me." ~Bryan Ferry
"Love and the self are one . . ." ~Leo Buscaglia "
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bisexual, bisexuality, gay, homosexual, marriage vs. polyamory, sex negative

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:53 AM.