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  #41  
Old 06-30-2011, 07:48 PM
serialmonogamist serialmonogamist is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
I don't think I am getting what you are saying here. Could you rephrase this? I think you are saying that all poly relationships seem to come from the desire to cheat. Is that it?
All I was saying is that I think when people are in monogamous relationships, they sometimes/often feel some level of attraction or interest in others and this can go as far as they let it. However, because monogamous culture renders such feelings/actions taboo in various ways, they end up leading to negativity.

So I'm not saying anything about poly relationships. I'm talking about repressed desire for extra-monogamous contact causing problems within monogamy and that polyamory could present a way to express extra-monogamous desires without all the negativity of cheating and suspicion/policing of cheating.

It feels like people keep responding to me as if I'm accusing polyamory of being some variation of cheating or swinging. I think this is because I generally take a continuum approach to most forms of human behavior. I'm less interested in establishing the differences between polyamory and cheating, swinging, etc. as I am in looking at how people's attitudes toward relationship-control influence the way they feel about and treat each other. Does that make sense?
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  #42  
Old 06-30-2011, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by serialmonogamist View Post
All I was saying is that I think when people are in monogamous relationships, they sometimes/often feel some level of attraction or interest in others and this can go as far as they let it. However, because monogamous culture renders such feelings/actions taboo in various ways, they end up leading to negativity.

So I'm not saying anything about poly relationships. I'm talking about repressed desire for extra-monogamous contact causing problems within monogamy and that polyamory could present a way to express extra-monogamous desires without all the negativity of cheating and suspicion/policing of cheating.
Oh okay.
Some people actually don't want the hassle of their wife/husband knowing about their extra curricular activities... they actually get off on the taboo and see their deception as their right, because... well I don't know if I could hazard a guess really. I find it hard to empathize.
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialmonogamist View Post
It feels like people keep responding to me as if I'm accusing polyamory of being some variation of cheating or swinging. I think this is because I generally take a continuum approach to most forms of human behavior. I'm less interested in establishing the differences between polyamory and cheating, swinging, etc. as I am in looking at how people's attitudes toward relationship-control influence the way they feel about and treat each other. Does that make sense?
For the record, I was just asking you to clarify. I find the way you say things hard to understand. thanks for doing that. I was hoping you would clarify before I replied.
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  #43  
Old 07-01-2011, 12:54 PM
serialmonogamist serialmonogamist is offline
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Originally Posted by redpepper View Post
Oh okay.
Some people actually don't want the hassle of their wife/husband knowing about their extra curricular activities... they actually get off on the taboo and see their deception as their right, because... well I don't know if I could hazard a guess really. I find it hard to empathize.
Yes, I can get into analyzing the darker side of human relations, often somewhat cynically though always with some hope for better understanding and finding the silver lining. It actually occurred to me during a breakup once that the self-confidence and self-esteem you get from being in a secure relationship empowers you to be able to put yourself out there successfully for other relationships. I.e. it's easier to date (licitly or illicitly) when you're in a relationship. So if two monogamous people are in a relationship, they are both empowered to have affairs, in a way, yet the first one to find out about the other one cheating is going to be disempowered by the broken heart and have a hard time trusting enough to date for some time. So it's like you need to be in a relationship to get the pleasure of cheating, and taking advantage of your power takes away the same power from your partner. So it's pretty amazing to me that you can see the connection between love, power, pleasure, and sacrifice - interesting but disturbing imo.

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For the record, I was just asking you to clarify. I find the way you say things hard to understand. thanks for doing that. I was hoping you would clarify before I replied.
Thanks for framing your trouble understanding me as an "I" message. People tell me I write too complexly sometimes but it makes me defensive when they use terms like "gibberish" and "word salad." I try to express things on a general level and it waters down my meanings and gives the wrong impressions sometimes.
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  #44  
Old 07-01-2011, 03:05 PM
GroundedSpirit GroundedSpirit is offline
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............ So if two monogamous people are in a relationship, they are both empowered to have affairs, in a way, yet the first one to find out about the other one cheating is going to be disempowered by the broken heart and have a hard time trusting enough to date for some time. So it's like you need to be in a relationship to get the pleasure of cheating, and taking advantage of your power takes away the same power from your partner. So it's pretty amazing to me that you can see the connection between love, power, pleasure, and sacrifice - interesting but disturbing imo.
I get what you are trying to say here. But I think it either is - or could be interpreted to be an overly simplistic picture.

'Cheating' has as many causes and variations as every other human dynamic. For a certain percentage I'm sure there is this empowerment you speak of. But by definition - you HAVE to be in a relationship TO cheat ! At least I can't bring to mind a way to cheat on ourselves (except our core values). Yes, I think for some percentage there is a certain thrill in cheating, no different than there is a thrill in anything taboo. But for most people who cheat (I believe) it's really more a move of necessity than thrill seeking. It's not because of empowerment, control dynamics, or anything else. It's a questions of happiness and emotional defense.

GS

Last edited by GroundedSpirit; 07-01-2011 at 03:07 PM.
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  #45  
Old 07-02-2011, 04:30 AM
serialmonogamist serialmonogamist is offline
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Originally Posted by GroundedSpirit View Post
I get what you are trying to say here. But I think it either is - or could be interpreted to be an overly simplistic picture.

'Cheating' has as many causes and variations as every other human dynamic. For a certain percentage I'm sure there is this empowerment you speak of. But by definition - you HAVE to be in a relationship TO cheat ! At least I can't bring to mind a way to cheat on ourselves (except our core values). Yes, I think for some percentage there is a certain thrill in cheating, no different than there is a thrill in anything taboo. But for most people who cheat (I believe) it's really more a move of necessity than thrill seeking. It's not because of empowerment, control dynamics, or anything else. It's a questions of happiness and emotional defense.

GS
Fortunately or unfortunately, it is possible to live without sex. It can be very difficult, especially when it is readily available and/or you are used to having it regularly, like food or other kinds of recreation/interaction. So I wouldn't quite go so far as to say cheating is need-driven, though it may be frustration-driven. E.g. if you were in a situation where the only way for you to get sex was to cheat on your partner unprotected and contract HIV, would you succumb to the 'need?'

Can people cheat on themselves? If you were committed to celibacy, you could cheat on yourself and experience the same feelings of guilt and sadness but I think you would be more convinced that you were hurting yourself because you would only feel like you were cheating yourself. I guess the exception could be if you had the idea that you were doing it for God and you felt alienated from God, like s/he/it was some completely separate being that demanded things of you against your own interest. I have heard of priests/nuns, for example, who break their celibacy vows and I can imagine this could feel very exciting if they don't view celibacy as being part of their own spiritual enrichment but rather as a tiresome rule to follow with no positive benefit.

I think cheating feels best in monogamy when one has the sense that they are being controlled by their partner or by monogamous culture generally. In that case, cheating could feel like an assertion of self-fidelity against repressive external social control. When you feel like you're hurting your partner, your children, or others with it, I think it's more of a guilt-ridden act than a liberating feeling. I feel bad for people who simultaneously feel repressed by monogamy and guilty for transcending it covertly. It must be very confusing.
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  #46  
Old 07-04-2011, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by serialmonogamist View Post
it makes me defensive when they use terms like "gibberish" and "word salad."
hee heee he. "word salad" Ahem, sorry, that is just really funny. please excuse me
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  #47  
Old 07-04-2011, 02:42 PM
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hee heee he. "word salad" Ahem, sorry, that is just really funny. please excuse me
See, you laughing at that makes me defensive because it is hard to express thoughts sometimes and I end up going on and on with words trying to explain. "Word salad" is a mean term because it implies schizophrenia in the writer/speaker. It would be like calling polyamory an STD swap meet, pervert asylum, or something else that associated it with sickness.
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  #48  
Old 07-04-2011, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by serialmonogamist View Post
"Word salad" is a mean term because it implies schizophrenia in the writer/speaker. It would be like calling polyamory an STD swap meet, pervert asylum, or something else that associated it with sickness.
I've never heard of "word salad" implying schizophrenia in the writer/ speaker. To me "word salad" comes about when a speaker/ writer is nervous. It's like the over talking one sometimes does to fill uncomfortable silences or when one's mind is moving faster than their tongue.

I did look up the actual definition and it says that "word salad" CAN indicate a mental health issue, such as schizophrenia or dementia. Words can be taken in many contexts and can offend people based on their experience, whether the speaker intended offense or not. Words themselves cannot be mean. It appears to me that you have had a negative experience with this phrase, to be so offended at RP's laughter.
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  #49  
Old 07-04-2011, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by serialmonogamist View Post
"Word salad" is a mean term because it implies schizophrenia in the writer/speaker.
Never heard that connotation, and I have a very close relative who is schizophrenic. I wouldn't consider it mean to be called schizophrenic, either. My schizophrenic relative is a lovely person, just has an imbalance in the brain.
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  #50  
Old 07-04-2011, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by serialmonogamist View Post
See, you laughing at that makes me defensive because it is hard to express thoughts sometimes and I end up going on and on with words trying to explain. "Word salad" is a mean term because it implies schizophrenia in the writer/speaker. It would be like calling polyamory an STD swap meet, pervert asylum, or something else that associated it with sickness.
Hm. Sorry you took it this way. I thought it rather endearing actually. I thought it was sort of a cute term for someone who is tongue tied and attempting to get their words out. It reminded me of someone who has butterflies around someone they have a crush on. Kind of an expression you would use by saying, "she was so nervous around him her words were like tossed salad." Heh, sorry, I had never heard this term before. I still like it my way. Can we take it back? Like taking the words "fag" and "slut" back? Well... Maybe not if its a legit term of some kind.
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Last edited by redpepper; 07-04-2011 at 06:58 PM.
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