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  #31  
Old 10-29-2009, 08:02 PM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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I'm kind of wondering...what is this more about for you, Violet? Is this more about the ring or is this about the strain of trying to keep an "equal" dynamic where there may not be one?
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  #32  
Old 10-29-2009, 08:40 PM
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IMO Violet has every right to be pissed about the idea of taking her ring off. By joining HMA in a marriage she is in fact committing more to the relationship. Anne will not be tied to him in any other way than emotional at least initialy. They may be loved equally but the level of "real life", day to day integration, and legally functioning commitment is greater for Violet.

There is an aspect of adulthood that seems to be missing when discussing equality and levels of commitment in a lot of these threads.
Adults build unions that are not only based on loving emotion. They build them on paying taxes, maintaining households, creating retirement plans, and mowing the fucking lawn. Real life shit. It's great to have relationships based on dating, intimacy, sex and common interests…but it is the ones that hold up to the day to day stuff that embody commitment, dedication and sustainability.

That doesn't make other relationships not worth pursuing or any less rewarding in some ways. But it makes them different.

Value in anything is generally a reflection of what is put into the equation. Why should this be any different when dealing with romantic relationships?

If it is a visible disparity that HMA is concerned about, get Anne a ring too. Don't water down the symbols of Violet's marriage; elevate the symbols of Anne's commitment to HMA and her.
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  #33  
Old 10-29-2009, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by monovcphg View Post
imo violet has every right to be pissed about the idea of taking her ring off. By joining hma in a marriage she is in fact committing more to the relationship. Anne will not be tied to him in any other way than emotional at least initialy. They may be loved equally but the level of "real life", day to day integration, and legally functioning commitment is greater for violet.

There is an aspect of adulthood that seems to be missing when discussing equality and levels of commitment in a lot of these threads.
Adults build unions that are not only based on loving emotion. They build them on paying taxes, maintaining households, creating retirement plans, and mowing the fucking lawn. Real life shit. It's great to have relationships based on dating, intimacy, sex and common interests…but it is the ones that hold up to the day to day stuff that embody commitment, dedication and sustainability.

That doesn't make other relationships not worth pursuing or any less rewarding in some ways. But it makes them different.

Value in anything is generally a reflection of what is put into the equation. Why should this be any different when dealing with romantic relationships?

If it is a visible disparity that hma is concerned about, get anne a ring too. Don't water down the symbols of violet's marriage; elevate the symbols of anne's commitment to hma and her.
this!
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  #34  
Old 10-30-2009, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MonoVCPHG View Post
There is an aspect of adulthood that seems to be missing when discussing equality and levels of commitment in a lot of these threads.
Adults build unions that are not only based on loving emotion. They build them on paying taxes, maintaining households, creating retirement plans, and mowing the fucking lawn. Real life shit. It's great to have relationships based on dating, intimacy, sex and common interests…but it is the ones that hold up to the day to day stuff that embody commitment, dedication and sustainability.
I agree with this, which is why I brought up the legalities of marriage in the first place. So the question is: In a long term functioning committed triad, must that level of commitment only be limited to being between two members of the triad? Must there always be a third one out in such a situation?

I don't know the answer to that. I do know that if I was approaching a long term triad arrangement, I would certainly want to have access to that kind of commitment. Perhaps Anne doesn't want that level of commitment. Perhaps she does want it but doesn't feel she can have it so she's not committing fully. I honestly don't know what her level of commitment is here because her's is the only voice that hasn't been heard in this debate.

Violet has every right to see through the commitment of marriage that she and HMA are embarking on. She has every right to want to keep her ring on as a symbol of that huge part of her life that she's giving over to HMA. But if that is indeed what she wants, then that would seem to be at odds with trying to have another equal partner to build a triad with.

Do I think there's anything wrong with that? No. Perhaps the triad isn't meant to be equal...I have no idea. That type of arrangement is a happy arrangement that exists for many people. However, since it does seem to be a source of conflict as it's been written here, then it would also suggest that it might not be happy for all involved. But again, I don't know because not all parts of this have been heard. So before anyone jumps down my throat for it, I'm only offering a perspective and that's it.
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  #35  
Old 10-30-2009, 01:38 AM
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Triad Equality

<snip>

(As far as the Anne ready to commit, there's been some talk about opening the relationship. Anne wants to fuck other guys. Not add them to the relationship, just have FWB. But she doesn't really want HMA to see other women, or me to do so either. She said maybe she'd be okay with it if HMA let her fuck other men, but SHE was the one at the beginning who said she wanted it to be a closed relationship. Despite that she was still seeing someone who had NO idea about us, and even after she told us she was breaking it off with him, knowing full well we were uncomfortable with her fucking other people – and knowing we weren't allowed that freedom, she flew to Cali and fucked him. Thanks, Anne. I'm still miffed. So there's been some talk about giving her what she needs and letting her spread her wings – but because of what all three of us, not just HMA and I, want out of a relationship, letting her do so and instead of her being equal, have her be secondary for a while until she's ready and done her thing. So yeah.)
This was added to the original post yesterday. Maybe it will answer some of that For you.
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  #36  
Old 10-30-2009, 01:44 AM
Ceoli Ceoli is offline
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This was added to the original post yesterday. Maybe it will answer some of that For you.
No it doesn't because that is somebody speaking *for* Anne from their perspective and understanding, not Anne's. Anne's actual perspective and point of view has yet to be seen on this board.

Not saying whether it's right or wrong or anything. Just acknowledging that the boards do not give a complete picture.
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  #37  
Old 10-30-2009, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Sunshinegrl View Post
This was added to the original post yesterday. Maybe it will answer some of that For you.
Thanks for that snippet, Sunshine Girl. I think we are possibly seeing a case of people not being at the same stage of poly exploration. I see this at our meetings; people just discovering poly, defining it for themselves, learning what they really want. Others have more experience, explored more and have a clearer picture of what they want. I think Anne is a little behind in her exploration and needs time to evaluate what it is she exactly wants from the relationship. It may be a case of I want total freedom with others (such as fwb) but total security with others (her triad).
Hopefully she is not viewing the triad as a safety blanket to run to when there is no fwb or casual aquaintences to occupy her.

Then again, I might be full of shit Only Anne knows.
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Last edited by MonoVCPHG; 10-30-2009 at 02:01 AM.
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  #38  
Old 10-30-2009, 01:54 AM
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I just want to mention that although I may seem a little harsh in my assessment of the impact and commitments that "third's" have within relationships... I am one. Not in the sexual way, but in the family way. I have thought about these things extensively: my commitment, contribution and impact. I accept and know what I bring to the table and what I don't.
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  #39  
Old 10-30-2009, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceoli View Post
I agree with this, which is why I brought up the legalities of marriage in the first place. So the question is: In a long term functioning committed triad, must that level of commitment only be limited to being between two members of the triad? Must there always be a third one out in such a situation?

I don't know the answer to that. I do know that if I was approaching a long term triad arrangement, I would certainly want to have access to that kind of commitment. Perhaps Anne doesn't want that level of commitment. Perhaps she does want it but doesn't feel she can have it so she's not committing fully. I honestly don't know what her level of commitment is here because her's is the only voice that hasn't been heard in this debate.

Violet has every right to see through the commitment of marriage that she and HMA are embarking on. She has every right to want to keep her ring on as a symbol of that huge part of her life that she's giving over to HMA. But if that is indeed what she wants, then that would seem to be at odds with trying to have another equal partner to build a triad with.

Do I think there's anything wrong with that? No. Perhaps the triad isn't meant to be equal...I have no idea. That type of arrangement is a happy arrangement that exists for many people. However, since it does seem to be a source of conflict as it's been written here, then it would also suggest that it might not be happy for all involved. But again, I don't know because not all parts of this have been heard. So before anyone jumps down my throat for it, I'm only offering a perspective and that's it.
Personally I think what you wrote here makes sense. But I would put a spin on it.

Were it me, I would want all three people in a long-term triad to be equal in commitment level. I would not want anyone to be "the third". All parts equilateral so to speak.
BUT presuming that would happen at some point in my life going forward-I have already spent 11 years with Maca and I would not give up my wedding ring. I WOULD create some other form (other rings, tattoos, whatever) of recognition. But just because your life changes (My opinion) doesn't negate the importance of what WAS prior to the change...

So I think there is a way to compromise with this issue and I think it's absolutely absurd not to if the primary reason is that it is inconvenient or seems trivial to others...
I think her desire to keep her rings is reasonable (presuming the triad remains) and I think it shouldn't be such a battle. (but that's just me).
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  #40  
Old 10-30-2009, 02:05 AM
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Then again, I might be full of shit Only Anne knows.
This might be a bit of a tangent, but way back when I first joined this board there was a thread from a couple that had a committed triad with a third that didn't work out. It basically amounted to something like "Our third didn't behave the way we wanted her to in the relationship. What went wrong?"

Most of the answers consisted of all sorts of speculation about whether she was honest, really poly, etc. I really had to facepalm all the vilification of her. I'm kind of seeing the same thing here. The only piece of info I can glean from all of this is what Alex said. It seems that there are different goals at play here. But I can't speculate as to Anne's goals because her voice hasn't been at the table.

Now perhaps people will think this is another "think about the third" soapbox post, but rest assured I would have the very same issue if it were a member of the couple that wasn't represented. It just so happens that it's usually the third's voice that get's heard the least around here.

Last edited by Ceoli; 10-30-2009 at 02:08 AM.
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