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  #61  
Old 02-13-2014, 04:15 AM
JaneQSmythe JaneQSmythe is offline
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Originally Posted by Oldpolyman View Post
When I outed myself to my brother, he regurgitated the teachings of man and condemned me. He's now had a change of heart and mind, and now defends my choices, and has sent me this link that got him studying God's word and not simply accepting what the church teaches.
>
http://www.biblepolygamy.com/
Unfortunately...I'm afraid this link wouldn't help me at all with my (converted fundie) sister...as the site doesn't condone polyandry ("A woman having multiple men is an offence to God. Intimacy is marriage and a woman with multiple men has multiple husbands and out of line with God's Word. Men sleeping with the same woman are committing fornication.") and condemns polyamory outright ("Despite their protests to the contrary, polyamory or many loves is fornication. Sex is not to be used and abused with such godless liberalities." and "Polyamory is a wicked deception. Many loves or lovers based loosely on the concept that we are to love each other as Christ commanded is Bible abuse not adherence."...doh)

Only monogamists and polygynists need apply...non-polygynist polygamists, polyandrists and polyamourists - fornicators, all of them...

JaneQ

PS. Not that this actually bothers me in the slightest...I'm agnostic and am not particularly interested in Xtian doctrine. I love my birth family but they don't rule my decisions - even the fundie component would love me if they knew - I just don't push their buttons. (A decision that LGTB folks have made for a very long time...)
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Me: poly bi female, in an "open-but-not-looking" Vee-plus with -
MrS: hetero polyflexible male, live-in husband (21+ yrs)
Dude: hetero poly male, live-in boyfriend (3+ yrs) and MrS's best friend
Lotus: poly bi female, "it's complicated" relationships with Dude/JaneQ/MrS (1+ years)
TT: poly bi male, married to Lotus, FB with JaneQ
VV and MsJ: bi-women with male primaries, LTR LDR FWBs to JaneQ


My poly blogs here:
The Journey of JaneQSmythe
The Notebook of JaneQSmythe
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  #62  
Old 02-13-2014, 12:15 PM
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loveboston loveboston is offline
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Little bugs who have their place but are often considered to be pests.

Amazing how anyone can hear Christ's words not to judge or condemn and then turn quickly to a place in the Bible that allows us to contradict and disobey God.

We are commanded to love one another as much as we love ourselves.

Working out the details between two people who are passionately in love with each other is a complicated matter.

Some of us call that fun.

Others don't know what the hell we're talking about. Hmmm.

"You are my disciples if you do what I command. This is my command, Love one another".

I am a former protest ant but I continue the journey to learn how to love others the way I would like to be loved.

Practice, practice, practice.

Way fun...
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  #63  
Old 02-14-2014, 02:53 AM
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kdt26417 kdt26417 is offline
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It says something to be able to establish that God didn't just "tolerate" polygamy in the Bible, He actually promoted it. Still the fact remains that polygamy in this context = patriarchal polygyny, which makes me part of a sinful family (an MFM V). This is why, while being interested in the Bible, I cannot in good conscience rely on it as the gold standard for what my code of morality should be. Instead, I adhere to the code that, "It's all about consent." But in so doing, I think I wander off topic, so I'll not belabor that point.
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  #64  
Old 02-14-2014, 01:03 PM
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I prefer to allow Jesus to interpret the Bible and to understand why it is that those who claimed to follow Him seemed to miss His point.

Money is the bad guy. Inanimate, non human material created by people. Very cruel god.

People are nice. Animals are nice. Trees are wonderful. The ocean is spectacular. I don't like snow all that much but I don't see any reference to cold weather in Christ's words.

What I do see is Love. Loving people, animals, trees, the ocean and even snow is good.

Loving money is stupid. I honestly don't know of anyone who has had a wonderful, intimate, loving, sensual experience with money.

I do know multiple people who have had and are having wonderful, intimate, loving, sensual relationships with people.

I draw the line with animals and trees. But I do like my cat but I resist her flirtations.
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  #65  
Old 02-14-2014, 03:45 PM
seakinganswers seakinganswers is offline
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Originally Posted by loveboston View Post
I prefer to allow Jesus to interpret the Bible and to understand why it is that those who claimed to follow Him seemed to miss His point.

Money is the bad guy. Inanimate, non human material created by people. Very cruel god.

People are nice. Animals are nice. Trees are wonderful. The ocean is spectacular. I don't like snow all that much but I don't see any reference to cold weather in Christ's words.

What I do see is Love. Loving people, animals, trees, the ocean and even snow is good.

Loving money is stupid. I honestly don't know of anyone who has had a wonderful, intimate, loving, sensual experience with money.

I do know multiple people who have had and are having wonderful, intimate, loving, sensual relationships with people.

I draw the line with animals and trees. But I do like my cat but I resist her flirtations.
I don't pay as much attention to the details of the laws in the bible. In my opinion anything that creates more love is of God and anything that creates less is not and will only leave you spinning your wheels. That's also pretty much a summation of how Jesus saw it according to the scriptures too.
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  #66  
Old 02-14-2014, 04:16 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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Yahweh El (euphemistically translated Lord God) in the OT was the Hebrews' war god/fire god. Much or most of the OT is myth, with a mere trace of fact. The laws the Hebrews established (mythologically attributed to Moses' sojourn on the mountain with Yahweh) were for the Hebrews only, as any Jew will tell you today.

Much later, Jews and Gentiles came up with this Jesus idea based on Jewish myths about a Messiah/anointed one, and Pagan Greek ideas of a dying and rising vegetation god, who dies and reappears with the seasons. A syncretism. Jesus is made to speak words of love and unity, as opposed to the xenophobic tribal ideas of earlier centuries which no longer made sense in the first century CE. He was also made to speak entirely contradictory words of "bringing a sword," to fight off Roman rule.

If you want to live your lives based on stuff people made up 2000-3200 years ago, I ask, why? Why not live life as our current era with our science and technology and psychological understandings allow us to do?
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  #67  
Old 02-15-2014, 12:34 AM
seakinganswers seakinganswers is offline
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Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
Yahweh El (euphemistically translated Lord God) in the OT was the Hebrews' war god/fire god. Much or most of the OT is myth, with a mere trace of fact. The laws the Hebrews established (mythologically attributed to Moses' sojourn on the mountain with Yahweh) were for the Hebrews only, as any Jew will tell you today.

Much later, Jews and Gentiles came up with this Jesus idea based on Jewish myths about a Messiah/anointed one, and Pagan Greek ideas of a dying and rising vegetation god, who dies and reappears with the seasons. A syncretism. Jesus is made to speak words of love and unity, as opposed to the xenophobic tribal ideas of earlier centuries which no longer made sense in the first century CE. He was also made to speak entirely contradictory words of "bringing a sword," to fight off Roman rule.

If you want to live your lives based on stuff people made up 2000-3200 years ago, I ask, why? Why not live life as our current era with our science and technology and psychological understandings allow us to do?
While some of this us true there is a lot of falsehoods and misrepresentations in what you're saying. The OT was orally passed down tradition so by the time it was finally written whatever truth that was in it might be few and far between. The NT was, however written mostly by the people that were experiencing it firsthand. It took them a couple hundred years to finally compile the manuscripts and several councils to decide what would be considered absolute truth based on these and what wouldn't. Honestly, that's part of where you can have distortions. The Bible itself preaches that no human is perfect, yet the Bible that a bunch of imperfect humans with their own agendas got together to decide on is somehow perfect?

But believing in the perfection of the Bible us not necessary to believe in the general concept. And there is tons if wisdom in it. For instance those "contradictions" are hardly what people think they are. The world is full if them. Anyone religious or not could find them to be true in their lives. The Sword you talk about was NOT for the Romans. That's what the religious leaders if the day thought the Messiah came to do. So Jesus used a metaphor of a sword that would be used instead to "fight" against hate, bigotry, greed, deception and basically everything that threatens to tear down humanity.

But of course Christians very quickly took his entire message and turned it into this battle for people's souls that says anyone who doesn't conform to our beliefs is going to this mythical hell that somehow closely resembles the Greek and Roman mythology of the time as a burning place for all eternity. Most likely that was picked up from the Greeks as the church spread to the "Gentiles".

Last edited by seakinganswers; 02-15-2014 at 12:37 AM.
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  #68  
Old 02-15-2014, 01:33 PM
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Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
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The NT was, however written mostly by the people that were experiencing it firsthand.
Actually, the earliest books are by Paul, who converted after the supposed death of Jesus. The later books were written anonymously, and it took a while for apostles' names to become associated with them, to give them "authority." Of course, the Gospel of Thomas and of Mary (Magdalene) were eventually considered heretical since they didn't line up with the Roman agenda.

There is no evidence any of the books were actually written by people who followed Jesus on earth. Plenty of "tradition" around it, no evidence. Many scholars today think the gospels are just as much myth as books that didn't make it into the canon.

I find the argument that none of the books were written until during or after the destruction of Jerusalem (in 70 CE) compelling. Once the Temple was destroyed, Hebrews no longer had their sacrifices as a way to worship God, so a Jesus, savior in the sky, figure was invented and took hold of the popular imagination.


Quote:

But of course Christians very quickly took his entire message and turned it into this battle for people's souls that says anyone who doesn't conform to our beliefs is going to this mythical hell that somehow closely resembles the Greek and Roman mythology of the time as a burning place for all eternity. Most likely that was picked up from the Greeks as the church spread to the "Gentiles".
Lots was picked up from the Greeks. The myth of Jesus was of a god more Greek than Jewish. Galilee, where Jesus was supposed to come from, was at the time, extremely Hellenistic. Many early Christian writers scoffed at the idea that Christianity owed anything to Jewish culture, and fought against the OT being included in the Christian canon. Gnostic writers didn't think "The Father" Jesus talked about was Yahweh at all, but a higher god.
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Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

me: Mags, 59, living with:
miss pixi, 37
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  #69  
Old 02-15-2014, 01:43 PM
london london is offline
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The earliest gospel is said to have been written about twenty five years after the death of Jesus. The existence of Jesus Christ as a bloke who lived and was crucified isn't disputed by many historians. His existence does not warrant much debate, it's the Son Of God thing that is more than a little debatable.
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  #70  
Old 02-15-2014, 01:53 PM
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loveboston loveboston is offline
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Default 1st Hand

Of course I'm giving 1st hand testimony.

His Spirit lives in me.

His Spirit is Love.

Even for people who would crucify me for loving whomever allows me to.
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