I need feedback, a sounding board

Urvile

New member
Hi!

So I need feedback, a sounding board, and I hope that people here, might help.
I've been through about a year of really uncomfortable times. And I feel like I'm very much at a crossroads.

So I've looked through the forum more than once, read articles, and a few books, I feel very much a neophyte still. I've got questions, and there seems to be many kindly, thoughtful, people here.

*DEEP BREATH*

Preface!
I do take full responsibility for my choices, actions, lack of actions, fear, anger, and frustration. I've done a lot of growing up, made some real mistakes. And it's my opinion, I'm sure that if asked, that the person I've been with would disagree, with some parts of this, but it's my story, and my view. And by talking here, am hoping to find some way navigate this all.
A history of sorts:
I've been dating someone for about 5 plus years, who with in the first few weeks told me "I don't do Monogamy well". I asked her what that meant, and she said she had had multiple lovers in the past, and mentioned briefly polyamory. My response was pretty naive. "I've always been monogamous", and I said "We will deal with it when it happens, and to be honest with me. I'm unsure how I felt about it."

But then again, I'd already fallen madly in love with her. I think I'd have agreed to about anything.

One last thing, she had her own web design business, and she was barely, and then not at all scraping by, over time, I had been helping financially, pay her rent and bills. This is ongoing.

This led up to Cheating / lying / and blaming.
I could mince words, I won't, none of these things are within the spirit of Polyamory. And over the next two years. She did these things repeatedly, while I was monogamous with her, but I accepted her behavior, and by doing so, I am responsible too.​

After many fights, and arguments, pain and suffering, this led to:

Don't ask don't tell.
This sucked, it really sucked, but it sucked just a little less, than Cheating lying and blaming. It lasted about a year. While this was going on, I was some times content, and other times very unhappy. I'm pretty sure when, and who she was seeing, but never knew for sure. At this point, I ventured out once on my own, for a very short time. And it was a disaster. I discovered that, the rules did not apply equally. It did not immediately change any thing. I'm now of the opinion the person she primarily had been seeing, had worn out his welcome, and she stopped seeing him. At this point I said I never wanted to be in a don't ask don't tell relationship again, ever.​

This led to:
A period of monogamy.
This lasted almost a year, I think I'd lulled myself into thinking that non-monogamy as a issue had gone away. it was a mistake.

And this led to:
A first attempt at polyamory.
First I'd ask everyone to be kind with me on this one. It's the freshest, and the most painful, and difficult time for me, in many ways we had grown together, and there had been much happiness, and love.
Towards the end of the year of monogamy, she decided that she wanted to explore polyamory. She, was unclear of her own intent, and did not communicate her intent. She fell back onto her old habits and kept secrets. I'd left for a trip, and when I came back, she'd gone exploring, fooled around with, and then, invited another person into the relationship. I'd never met him, or even known he existed.

I quickly figured out who he was, through the wonders of social media, And I sent a email to him saying how unhappy I was, that I thought what he had done was reckless, selfish, and he had rather self serving. I found out latter, They had been corresponding for about six months, he knew all about me ( Or so he said). And he said he had no intention of causing harm to her and my relationship. ( heh, only after in secret trying to fuck her.)

I was surprised, heart broken, furious, and very afraid. She said she'd never promised to monogamous, and I'd known this from the beginning. I gave in, I told her she had been dishonest, that I was very unhappy, but, I would not forbid it. At this point, the other person chimed in via email, with the jist of it being, I was just being jealous, and that I should grow up, wishing I was more evolved.
She said, that all I had to say was no... I was angry, scared, unhappy, felt abandoned, jealous and profoundly confused. The next month was a lot of fighting, denial, frustration, between us, attempts at negotiation and defensive posturing, on my part. She feel madly in love with this other person, and I said choose. She did.

She left me...

Over the next few months we tried to reconcile. I said I'd try polyamory. For a month. It was miserable. She was in la la land in love with this person, I'd not tried to date anyone until then. And I was angry, and unhappy. Not a appealing person to date. I dated one person, she was not interested in polyamory.

As the month was ending, I started to explain to both of them I was unhappy, and that I wanted out. After several heated moments, I was given the impression by both her and him, that they were going to stop seeing each other. I was wrong.

This led to:
This led up to Cheating / lying / and blaming.
The cheating lying and blaming part is my opinion. She said, what she agreed to was another round of don't ask don't tell. Just by the fact I missed this completely, and it continued for months it's not the the truth.

This led to:
My trying to leave.
She agreed to stop seeing him. That did not mean she did not pine after, lash out, try to negotiate and much grief around this. It finally came down to, lack of trust, and a unwillingness to support her, emotionally and financially if she was going to see him. Of course this person has not gone away. And off and on, he's been sniping.​

This led to:
Me having a brief affair
There I've said it, I'm unhappy I did it. I made a mistake, and I've hurt her, and I hurt another person. I'm not proud.

This led to:
Now.
She's unhappy about what she calls forced monogamy. I'm unhappy for all sorts of reasons. First being forced support. We fight a lot. Before when we fought, even at it's worse, it lasted for a very short time, and it would be over and forgotten. It's not like that anymore. I really don't like it.

I think I'm being reasonable telling her that she must be independent, for anything to happen. Her wanting this other person, has had a direct effect on our relationship. She's been off and on distant, our sex life had always been, one of the bedrocks, is now very hit and miss. By proxy I'm in a relationship with someone who had, and has been a very negative force. And more and more all I want is escape. And it seems totally impossible without burning bridges.​

So the question is, and I hate asking open ended questions, is there hope?
Are there coping skills I don't know? Am I crazy for sticking around? Or do I have my head up my ass?

What do you think?
 
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I would insist that she finds a way to financially take care of herself. This will show you if she's actually interested in being in a relationship with you or not. I also notice a long history of dishonesty. That's going to be a hard one to fix. I'm sure at this point that you're having a hard time knowing whether or not to belive anything that she tells you. It may very well be the lack of trust making you miserable and not the fact that she's polyamourous. If things are so unsettled that you never know what's around the next corner how can you find that solid ground to come back to to focus on your own relationship?

I'd wager that a month apart really wasn't long enough to figure out what it is that YOU really want. I think some reflection here is in order. Think about what you want, verbalize it and be willing to act if this partner cannot meet your needs. This means being very specific about what it is that you need is. She might surprise you and be able to give you what you need if it's spelled out specifically, but if she can't then you know that and you can make the desision to move on if you have to.
 
Thank you.

yes, I've suggested this and more time apart. Her being in need both financially and emotionally, makes her unwilling to explore this. She feels that this is just a way for me to leave. So I could do it, but it gives me the impression, that I'd be burning a bridge. I've thought about this long and hard. And may do it, bridge be damned, but not yet.
 
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What would you tell a friend in this situation? You're worth more than this.
 
Hi and welcome,

I don't see a lot of hope. More and more you just want to escape. :(

What coping skills do you know. What have you tried so far?

Why not offer to trade places with the bf ....he/ they can support her and you can rebuild that lost sexual relationship. I don't get why this isn't a more popular solution. Very few have tried it.


What are you looking for in a relationship now that you got a taste of poly living? Think Long term ...short term? Is this relationship worth putting yourself through extensive reprograming, behavioral modification techniques, etc, etc.

What would it look like in your mind if things ran perfect in some poly dynamic in terms of time, attention, energy, money? Ask her the same question. See if they are remotely similar. Then see if any of the specific factor run counter to each other or are likely or even possible to obtain. Maybe work backwards from there. And discuss how far from perfect are you both willing to accept. 60% ...75%...40% very hard to quantify but everyone has a tipping point and I guess conversally a settling point.
 
If you and her had never existed, knowing what you know now, would you be open to polyamory? Would you be interested in an open relationship, or a DADT situation if you were optimistic in your partner's honesty?

I agree with what Derby says about letting them support themselves, and I'll also throw in, why wait, are you happy? Is this how you want your life to be?

Really the only thing I'll throw out (in case you stay in this relationship) is that it wasn't useful for you to go the person you mention in your "first try at poly" and to email him and flip him shit about it. Lots of people will take others at their word (like you do with her) and its not his job to hunt you down and make sure she's not a liar - its nice if they do, but not something you can take for granted. She is the one you make agreements with, she is the one who owes you sticking to safe sex and other agreements you have together. She is the one to call out if you have a problem.
 
I don't see a lot of hope. More and more you just want to escape.

yes, me too. And whats worse, her attitude emotionally, seems farther and farther away from reality.

What coping skills do you know. What have you tried so far?
Learning, about myself, about people. Being compassionate. Learning new ways of standing up for myself without ultimatums. And lots and lots of letting go of the past.

What are you looking for in a relationship now that you got a taste of poly living? Think Long term ...short term? Is this relationship worth putting yourself through extensive reprograming, behavioral modification techniques, etc, etc.

What I'm looking for? Poly has most certainly redefined what I thought my needs and want are. Thats very much a bonus, out of this experience.

The way I've come to look at it, is that Poly, and mono are just ideas. Shortcut words to describe how we relate to each other. I want a real relationship, I want to be wanted, and loved. I want empathy, compassion, imagination, and humor. And I want sex. :)

What would it look like in your mind if things ran perfect in some poly dynamic in terms of time, attention, energy, money? Ask her the same question. See if they are remotely similar.

In theory they are very similar, in practice, not much. Ironically, I'm better prepared emotionally and financially to fit the Poly ideal than she is. And after five years of stress, there is only the slightest, acknowledgment of what
it would take to do this honestly. And emotionally, she's fixated on someone, who I've no interest in having in my life. For very rational reasons. I've on purpose not got out the laundry list of crappy and underhanded things he's done. because in the end it's not about him.
 
I
f you and her had never existed, knowing what you know now, would you be open to polyamory? Would you be interested in an open relationship, or a DADT situation if you were optimistic in your partner's honesty?

I'd say yes to some sort of polyamory, and ask for the same things, honesty, take it as it comes. but I'd add that I'd be afraid, because I was but didn't admit that then. And white knuckling did not help the process.

DADT, absolutely not.


it wasn't useful for you to go the person you mention in your "first try at poly" and to email him and flip him shit about it. Lots of people will take others at their word (like you do with her) and its not his job to hunt you down and make sure she's not a liar - its nice if they do, but not something you can take for granted.

I disagree strongly.
The one thing I've learned is no one is a island. if I were to enter into a another relationship, I'd need to know, not like, but know, all parties involved, and to do this over time. Months.
 
I
f you and her had never existed, knowing what you know now, would you be open to polyamory? Would you be interested in an open relationship, or a DADT situation if you were optimistic in your partner's honesty?

I'd say yes to some sort of polyamory, and ask for the same things, honesty, take it as it comes. but I'd add that I'd be afraid, because I was but didn't admit that then. And white knuckling did not help the process.

DADT, absolutely not.


it wasn't useful for you to go the person you mention in your "first try at poly" and to email him and flip him shit about it. Lots of people will take others at their word (like you do with her) and its not his job to hunt you down and make sure she's not a liar - its nice if they do, but not something you can take for granted.

I disagree strongly.
The one thing I've learned is no one is a island. if I were to enter into a another relationship, I'd need to know, not like, but know, all parties involved, and to do this over time. Months. Most of the real heart ache was created simply out of ignorance and impulse. I don't want to make him the focus of this, you are right, it's about her and I. But, what ever ignorance he had, it was by his choice. He didn't go away, he didn't ask questions, and he was dishonest multiple times.
 
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I disagree strongly.
The one thing I've learned is no one is a island. if I were to enter into a another relationship, I'd need to know, not like, but know, all parties involved, and to do this over time. Months. Most of the real heart ache was created simply out of ignorance and impulse. I don't want to make him the focus of this, you are right, it's about her and I. But, what ever ignorance he had, it was by his choice. He didn't go away, he didn't ask questions, and he was dishonest multiple times.

I still say the problem is with your partner. if you don't trust them, you don't trust them. A lot of poly people will not be checking with you to make sure everything is above board. Time is short, life is busy, a lot of people live independently, and while glad to meet you if it's something important to your partner, may just not want to take the time to chat with you otherwise (my perception is that women are more likely to want to meet/confirm/check etc than men)

Not that you cant disagree of course - if he was dishonest, sure that's a problem but it doesn't really mean that if your partner is lying that you go after the person helping them be a liar. There are all sorts of levels of involvement in poly - and I mean..when you had an affair, would it have been useful for your gf to contact that person letting them know they were a bad person who was causing problems for you two?

"They had been corresponding for about six months, he knew all about me ( Or so he said). And he said he had no intention of causing harm to her and my relationship. ( heh, only after in secret trying to fuck her.) "
That is all her, he does not owe you anything, sad to say. Many people will have sex with other people before meeting other partners. They don't consider fucking somebody who says they are poly to be something they are doing in "secret" it's up to your partner to talk to you. Lots of people do require otherwise but really, it's up to your partner to be the one who keep communication clear and honest.
 
I'll put it very simply. Feeling like you want to escape is perfectly rational in this situation. Over and over, she's failed to respect you, and what good is love without respect? Set yourself free. You can leave any time you want. Don't forget that. There's no reason to feel trapped by a relationship that keeps hurting you and trampling over your desires, first for monogamy, then for honesty, then for fairness.... enough is enough.
 
Am I crazy for sticking around? Or do I have my head up my ass?
Yes and yes.

If you don't end this toxic relationship, then -- at the very least -- stop paying her bills. Seriously, why do you stay? Love is not enough! To find satisfaction in relationships, there has to be mutual caring, respect, affection, and trust, among other things. I see no evidence of these things in your story.

I say get out while the gettin' is good!

These lyrics seem appropriate:
"There must be fifty ways
To leave your lover...
Fifty ways to leave your lover
You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don’t need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don’t need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free . . ."​
 
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is there hope?
Are there coping skills I don't know? Am I crazy for sticking around? Or do I have my head up my ass?

What do you think?

I think a better question is,
what is the probability that this is ever going to be reconciled.

I could write a book on the topic-but... I already did. Feel free to read my blog.

I was in an open relationship prior to marriage.
I married and agreed to monogamy.
I cheated.
I got pregnant.
I aborted.
I promised no more cheating.
I cheated more-same other guy.
I got my head out of my ass.
I stopped lying to myself and EVERYONE else about ANYTHING at all.
3 years later, I haven't told a lie and have managed to build a much more functional and stable relatinoship with both my husband and my boyfriend (same guy from beginning).

So-can it happen-sure, under two very specific conditions.
1) IF the cheater (in your case both of you or all of you) is willing to TOTALLY take FULL responsibility for their actions AND change the underlying issues within themselves that make them think its ok to lie, cheat, deceive or in anyway-manipulate the truth (which includes lying by omission).

But-probability has shown that very few people are ACTUALLY willing to do that work.

2) everyone is willing to do the hard emotional work to fully forgive past transgressions and get to know the "new" version of themselves and each other without holding on to any of the animosity or angst from the past circumstances.

Again-easier said than done.

For my story-if you want it-which I will readily tell you has been HELL- feel free to drag yourself through my blog (linked in my signature).
But-be forewarned-what we've accomplished has NOT been easy and MANY PEOPLE including each of us personally would happily tell you that we don't advise it-as a rule of thumb.
It's very painful and the work-while worth the effort for us-is a lot of work for a payoff that comes in the DISTANT future.
 
I read your story, and I have a few things to say. My impression of you, after reading your story, is it takes a little bit of work to get you to listen to what someone is telling you. I will talk more about that in my words below. I want you to listen to me, so I am going to be blunt with all of my words. Please understand I am doing this because I want to help you see a few things about yourself, and I am not sure I will get through to you if I write this reply in a low key manner. Please accept my bluntness as my way of trying to help you.


THE FACTS:

Your relationship with her is not based on poly. You have little to no experience with poly. You have lots of experience being in a relationship with someone who lies to you and cheats on you.


THE REAL QUESTION:

Why are you in a relationship with someone who lies to you and cheats on you?



ANOTHER WAY OF ASKING THIS QUESTION:

Why are you willing to be on the receiving end of this abuse?



ANOTHER WAY OF ASKING THIS QUESTION:

Why is your self esteem so low that being in a relationship with her is worth all of this abuse?



MY VERY BLUNT CONCLUSION - MY VERY BLUNT OPINION:

She told you the truth in the very beginning. She said she does not do monogamy well. You did nothing with that. You swept it under the rug. You ignored it. You did not discuss with her what that was about for her. This means you did not respect the truth when she gave it to you. This means you did not respect HER when she showed you an intimate part of herself. You did not respect HER because you were looking only at your own needs, and how she could respond to them.


The result of that one inaction on your part is you opened a big door and let someone in your life who now lies to you. You stay with her. All of this says to me you accept lies from her much more easily than you accept the truth. This fact makes this situation you are in entirely about you. You are much more willing to receive lies and abuse than you are willing to receive the truth and respect, so that is the kind of relationship you get - a relationship that gives you lies and abuse. This is a fact. Your only job now is to ask yourself why is this the way you are right now? All she is doing is being who she really is.


Based on the story you told, I can draw a very simple conclusion. It is very hard to communicate with you just by talking. She tried that when she told you she has a hard time with monogamy. That didn't get through, so she had to SHOW you she has a hard time with monogamy. You STILL ignored it, because you complained and stayed when she did not change. You cannot change her, the only thing you can do if you want to be in a relationship with people who are honest with you and treat you with respect is to end this with her and find others who are honest. She does not have to change anything for you to improve your life. You do. You have to leave her. You have not. Your life stays the same. Simple math.


You have a lot of work to do on yourself before you can find someone honest. You have to answer this question:

"Why do I ignore the truth when someone gives it to me, accept lies and cheating, then complain about it when I already knew who they really were and what they would do?"

Don't even try to tell me you did not know who she is. If you are tempted even a little to do that, reread my reply. There is something inside of you that tells you it is ok to receive abuse. Your job is to find it, so you can learn why you let abusive people into your life, and change YOU.
 
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"Why do I ignore the truth when someone gives it to me, accept lies and cheating, then complain about it when I already knew who they really were and what they would do?"

Don't even try to tell me you did not know who she is. If you are tempted even a little to do that, reread my reply. There is something inside of you that tells you it is ok to receive abuse. Your job is to find it, so you can learn why you let abusive people into your life, and change YOU.

I take all of these to heart. It's the lesson I keep/kept on learning over and over. Not standing up for myself, not facing the truth, that it was abuse, not some lack in myself. I own what has happened.

I've been struggling to wrap my arms around it all, and face her directly. And I have been moving towards extracting myself from this situation.
 
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I missed this before, wanted to comment.

"when you had an affair, would it have been useful for your gf to contact that person letting them know they were a bad person who was causing problems for you two?"

* It was a moment of impulse, I'm not excusing it, just context.
* The person whom I had a affair with, was her friend first.
* The person whom I had the affair with, knew the situation ( lies / cheating /blaming ) and in her own way was trying to heal me.
* I've lost the friendship of someone I really care about because of this.
* When it came out, ironicaly there was a virtual cat fight between them. They no longer talk.
* I wanted to come out into the open almost immediately. I felt like such a hypocrite.
 
... and face her directly.
Facing her is a waste of time. How many years? You are still missing the point. It's time to face yourself, and ask all the questions.

There are a lot of dishonest people in this world. They may be the toll taker, the construction worker, the guy who lives 5 doors down from me, the airplane mechanic, etc. I don't know where they are all hiding right now.

I do know one thing, none of them are in my life in any personal way. Why is that? I have developed a skill that I call walking away. I do that at the slightest hint of dishonesty. You have developed a skill called walking toward. The words you wrote that I quoted for this reply shout that from the mountain tops.

The only question you really have to ask YOURSELF is why do you walk towards? You will live the way you do now until you answer that question and learn how to walk away.

The answer to that question is about you. It's not about anyone else. The more you look at her, the more you miss the point. Self reflection is key here.
 
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The only question you really have to ask YOURSELF is why do you walk towards? You will live the way you do now until you answer that question and learn how to walk away.

This point has been driven home so many ways, and well before I came and asked the question.

I'd say this has been a learning experience for me. Each time, I avoided that question, I got hit by the clue stick, and each time it hit harder.

I've been sure of these answers for a while. I came here to ask, because of self doubt, that little voice that says, maybe it's your ego, maybe you are just jealous. To avoid hubris.

What do I walk towards? One thing is, to be happy just to be by myself. To have clear direction, and move towards it. To build my life, not spin and spin and spin.
 
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