Polyamory.com Forum  

Go Back   Polyamory.com Forum > Polyamory > Spirituality & Polyamory

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 12-26-2018, 04:18 PM
Magdlyn's Avatar
Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Metro West Massachusetts
Posts: 7,569
Default

I enjoyed your brief summary. I'll add a few tidbits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MayDecember View Post
The question I ended up focusing on was who wrote the Bible.

There's some outstanding work on who wrote the Hebrew Bible, I would separate that from who wrote the Christian Bible. The so-called Old and New Testament, as Christians refer to them.
I've heard some so-called Evangelical Christians refer to the Old Testament as a "book within a book." They distance themselves from the 613 "mitzvot" (in Hebrew, blessings, in English, commandments) given by Yahweh "for all time," that are not convenient, keeping only 10.

Quote:
Beginning in 325 CE with the Council of Nicea (sic) called by Emperor Constantine, Rome's purpose was to impose a state religion on the people.

The reason for this was to divide the Empire, every square inch, into Catholic Parishes where all people had to register in the Parish Registry: their names, where they lived, occupations, ages, sexes, etc. That way you could organize tax collection, raise armies, spread propaganda, and you have the Priest doing confessionals as a means of collecting the best kind of information for extortion and political espionage.

Constantine didn't give a shit what the people believed. He just told all the Bishops they must have one Bible, one belief, uniform across the Empire. So a series of Ecumenical Councils were held between 325 and the 370's or so when the final Canon as we know it was ossified.
Except, of course, the Revelation of John, which has always been controversial in meaning and importance and authorship.

Quote:
Prior to that, Christianity was run amok with everyone making up their own Gospels and Books. Gospels of Thomas, Mary, Judas, etc. With Jesus living to old age having five children, riding a Phoenix, banging Mary Magdeline (sic), and all manner of fun stuff.
I wouldn't say Christianity was run amok. It was new and in the process of great growth and excitement. Every area had its own "gospels" and "revelations", letters, etc. In fact, gnostic Christians were so delighted with their new religion, the composition of symbolic, philosophical, and political (ie: theological) writings, myths, gospels, and treatises were encouraged. Many of them were soon to be considered heresy. Especially the ones promoting the importance of Mary Magdalene over the male apostles.

And Jesus wasn't merely "banging" Mary M, he had been anointed by her, head and foot (ie: penis) for the sacred marriage (in Greek: hieros gamos) death and burial. Although whether he really died, or was even personally hung on the cross, was a matter of passionate discussion in early Christianities.

At any rate, it's extremely obvious many thought there was something quite erotic about a woman (some Mary or other, maybe of Bethany, maybe the Madgalene [maybe all the Marys were the same goddess serving in different roles at different times]) crying on his feet, anointing them with delicious whoreish spikenard, and wiping them with her unbound hair. Take a look at the fun Renaissance painters had with this image. She even got hot for his "feet" when he was dead on the cross, in their imaginations.

Mary's sexual wifely desire for Jesus was a reflection of the goddess traditions saved in the Song of Songs in the Old Testament, which is still read in the Catholic churches on her saint's day.

Mary was not from Magdala (which probably didn't exist until after Biblical times) (Jesus was not from Nazareth, either, which also didn't exist yet, although gospel writers imagined it did. He was a Nazirite, a man on a mission, consecrated to god). Mary was the migdal, the tower (in Hebrew), vowels not being noted in this language until much later. She may have been Mary of Bethany, who is represented as wife-like in the gospels. It is often assumed Mary, Martha and Lazarus were wealthy. Mary Magdalene is written to have supported Jesus and the apostles from her own purse.


Quote:
So they banned all of those, burned the books, and killed people who mentioned them. Nevertheless we've discovered them in archaeological digs like Nag Hammadi and can read them again.
I have not seen evidence of the gnostic writings being actually burned. And who was killed for even mentioning them? I understand they were merely no longer considered legitimate, and were left uncopied. (In fact, many are quoted in the canonical books!) It's an amazing thing that so many were discovered, saved in jars in Nag Hammadi, from the 4th century until the middle of the 20th. As well as the Dead Sea Scrolls being discovered about the same time! It's almost like the Holy Spirit herself hid them until humans were more ready to receive them.

Quote:
The Bible of today is not Christianity. It is the dictatorship imposed by the Romans upon pain of death, and their purpose was not spirituality but administrative control and espionage upon the people of the Empire.
Well, who can say "what is Christianity?" It is whatever each person says it is. "Biblical sexuality" is basically patriarchal and misogynist, as per the needs of the tribal males of ancient days to own women and their offspring. Therefore, despite finding the Bible fascinating as the views and somewhat confused history of a certain time and place of the ancient world, I do not take much of it as a guide on how to live. You just have to cherry pick your favorite parts. It's very inconsistent.

Quote:
The Hebrew Bible, that is fascinating as a merger of Northern and Southern Kingdom traditions. One was polytheist. One monotheist. You see their creation stories appearing one right after the other in Genesis. Two sets of Ten Commandments. Christians are so ignorant of their own Bible they don't know about all these "doublets" that radically contradict one another.
There are 4 sources for the Hebrew Bible, the Elohist (god called El, translated "God"), Yahwist (god called Yahweh, translated "the LORD"), the Priestly (reflecting the desires of the elite at Jerusalem), and the Deuteronomist (secondary re-writers).

All of Israel (north) and Judah (south) was polytheist... the Levites settled in Jerusalem and sought to consolidate their power by enforcing one god and one temple to which sacrifices and tithes should be brought (for the priests and Levites to consume). The Bible was written as if monotheism started with Moses centuries earlier, but this was not true. Moses was imagined as the Hebrew Akhenaten, the iconoclast, whose bright idea for the "one god" concept only lasted as long as his reign. But the "one god" concept served the priests and Levites very well.

Quote:
That's why they outlawed anything but Latin for Bibles. So that only the clergy could read them. So nobody knew.

Once the printing press was invented, you could not control production of Bibles as you could with scribes and such limited copies in circulation. It shattered Christianity with the Protestant Reformation. Confession was found to be nowhere in the Bible, so this was eliminated from Protestant practices for example.

In either case though, the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, it was the victors politically that produced the "Canon". The most savage conquerer, wow that Hebrew fellow really hated polytheism and smashed incredible numbers of idols, raised churches, etc. Forgot his name.
I'm not sure what "Hebrew fellow" would "raise churches." Maybe you're referring to King Josiah of Judah, who ordered the goddess Asherah's holy places to be "razed" to ward off Yahweh's wrath (ie, the conquering of Judah by Babylon) (which didn't work).

Asherah was worshiped as Yahweh's consort for many centuries. Finally, through much use of force and murder, she was eradicated. But the Jews couldn't do without a wife for Yahweh for long. Soon the Shekinah was thought to be Yahweh's wife/sex partner, and she still is (although many people don't know this). It's interesting that one reason Jewish men are commanded to fuck their wives on the Sabbath, is because it makes Yahweh fuck the Shekinah, which makes him happy, and causes him to bless his followers. lol Fun stuff indeed.

Quote:
But in the Christian case, it was Rome. And the arch-villain in that whole story is the Bishop Eusebius, who sat at Constantine's right hand at that first great Council of Nicea (sic) in 325. He forged the most important passage Christians use as "proof" there was contemporary evidence for Jesus existing. There is none, but that forgery, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, forged by the Bishop Eusebius.

So these are not only war criminals by Nuremburg standards but forgers and weavers of tales that are internally inconsistent. It explains why you can quote the Bible for just about any purpose you want including incest, war, or Victorian Era neuroticism and peace.

Thus, however the so-called Bible covers any topic is immediately suspect as the writing is merged traditions under political compromise and control. In that first Council of 325, one of the more important matters was voting that if you cut your own nuts off to be a Eunuch, then you could not be a Christian. Someone else had to cut your nuts off.
lol

Quote:
So I don't put much stock into the notion of Biblical Sexuality.
But do you have a "living faith"?
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

Mags (poly, F, 64)
Pixi (poly, F, 42) my partner since January 2009, cohabiting
"Maestro" (mono, M, 38), Pixi's bf since April 2013, co-primary
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-26-2018, 11:19 PM
River's Avatar
River River is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: NM, USA
Posts: 3,502
Default

So what we call The Bible was created mainly to concentrate power and authority into the hands of only a few. What a surprise!
__________________
male, bisexual & biamorous
1 long term male partner of many years.
Occasionally dating others but never seeming to form anything lasting and real.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-02-2020, 10:01 PM
TXretired TXretired is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Corsicana, TX
Posts: 11
Default Devine Sex

Devine Sex by Philo Thelos is a good read. I have believed itís view for years. However, the book has helped my wife in accepting her sexuality and being open.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-03-2020, 02:29 PM
Magdlyn's Avatar
Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Metro West Massachusetts
Posts: 7,569
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXretired View Post
Divine Sex by Philo Thelos is a good read. I have believed it’s view for years. However, the book has helped my wife in accepting her sexuality and being open.
Thanks for the recommendation.

https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Sex-Li...3&sr=8-1-fkmr0
Quote:
About the Author
The author is a Seminary graduate (B.Th.), licensed and ordained to the Pastorate by three Christian organizations, and a full time minister in the Christian Church for 36 years. His first 18 years of ministry were with the Church of Christ. Since 1984 he has ministered in both "mainline" Evangelical churches and independent Charismatic churches. He recently retired to devote his time to writing.

The author and his wife have been married 39 years, raising three daughters and enjoying 10 grandchildren. They both have devoted themselves all their married life to religious work and promotion of the gospel of Christ.

For 36 years the author employed the modern tools of scholarly Biblical research, to an expository (contextual, verse by verse explanation) approach to both Bible study and preaching. Such study produced frequent discovery that the Bible does not say what he had been trained to believe about many things. In fact, he discovered quite frequently the Bible says the very opposite of what he had been taught. This was especially true regarding the subject of sex. Many modern sexual taboos are founded not on actual Biblical statements but rather, on human opinion and church tradition. The result of his study on human sexuality was so liberating for him and his wife, and for the few with whom he had the opportunity to share his findings, that he decided the information must be published. Hence this book.

The author says, "I believe that the average Christian will welcome this book. Not because they are sex-crazed perverts-in-waiting, but because they are honest people who share in common a natural, God-given passion for sex that has been choked off by centuries of ill-founded church traditions. They will know the truth of this book as it bears witness with their spirit."
I assume there is a focus on the Song of Songs. Can you confirm?
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

Mags (poly, F, 64)
Pixi (poly, F, 42) my partner since January 2009, cohabiting
"Maestro" (mono, M, 38), Pixi's bf since April 2013, co-primary
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-04-2020, 02:50 AM
TXretired TXretired is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Corsicana, TX
Posts: 11
Default Devine Sex

The author starts by discussing the original definitions of words used by modern society. Adultery, orgy, etc. He does discuss Solomonís writings. And applies them to modern application.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:48 PM
Al99's Avatar
Al99 Al99 is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,471
Default

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXretired View Post
Divine Sex by Philo Thelos is a good read. I have believed itís view for years. However, the book has helped my wife in accepting her sexuality and being open.
Thanks for the recommendation.

https://www.amazon.com/Divine-Sex-Li...3&sr=8-1-fkmr0
I haven't read a "Bible based - Bible commentary" type book in many years, although I read many in my youth. While I do self identify as Gnostic Christian, and do find some passages in the Bible to be inspired, for the most part, I do not recognize it to be "authoritative" in any way. So books that stem from a belief that the Bible is authoritative in some way - or that it needs to be understood in a certain way so that its "authority" does not conflict with one's beliefs - are generally of no importance to me.

However - even given that perspective - I do find this book somewhat intriguing (the Amazon reviews were interesting) - although it seems somewhat overpriced (imo). If they had a Kindle version for $10-$12, I would most likely purchase a copy - just for fun, if nothing else.

But, yes, thanks for sharing the recommendation.

Al
__________________
Dramatis Personae:
Me: Al99, poly, heterosexual male, 50's
Becky: married to Al99, poly, heterosexual female, late 30's
Bouncingbetty: ldr girlfriend to Al99, poly, pansexual female, mid 30's
Jill: local fwb to Al99, heterosexual female, early 50's.
Sam: Becky's boyfriend, heterosexual male, 50's.
Ben: Becky's long time friend and former partner, heterosexual male, 40's


_________________________________________


My Introductory Post - An Unexpected Introduction to Poly.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:00 PM
Magdlyn's Avatar
Magdlyn Magdlyn is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Metro West Massachusetts
Posts: 7,569
Default

"The Bible says..." "The Bible says..."

It's odd that a man with so much experience as a minister even uses such a phrase. I didn't go to seminary, or spend countless hours leading services, making sermons, or counseling adult humans on how to properly have sex according to "God's will," etc., as this author must have done.

I spent 7 years doing independent Bible study, as a layperson, just reading the New Oxford Annotated Bible and a bunch of Ehrman and Spong, and guys like that, and gnostic literature and early writers like Augustine. I also read up on the roots of Hebrew religion in Babylonian, Persian and Egyptian religion, and the roots of Christianity in the Hebrew and Greek religions. (Hint: it's all a continuum. Christianity is not unique or "correct.")

The Bible doesn't "say" anything special or valuable about sex for humans in the 21st century. Modern sex research, scientific research, is much more illuminating than the sexual practices meant to propitiate antique partriarchal gods, and denigrate the goddesses they sprang from and destroyed.

Where does the Bible address, say, the clitoris? Only in the Song of Songs, which dates back to goddess based culture.
__________________
Love withers under constraint; its very essence is liberty. It is compatible neither with envy, jealousy or fear. It is there most pure, perfect and unlimited when its votaries live in confidence, equality and unreserve. -- Shelley

Mags (poly, F, 64)
Pixi (poly, F, 42) my partner since January 2009, cohabiting
"Maestro" (mono, M, 38), Pixi's bf since April 2013, co-primary
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-16-2020, 03:59 PM
apexcone apexcone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 11
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magdlyn View Post
"The Bible says..." "The Bible says..."

It's odd that a man with so much experience as a minister even uses such a phrase. I didn't go to seminary, or spend countless hours leading services, making sermons, or counseling adult humans on how to properly have sex according to "God's will," etc., as this author must have done.

I spent 7 years doing independent Bible study, as a layperson, just reading the New Oxford Annotated Bible and a bunch of Ehrman and Spong, and guys like that, and gnostic literature and early writers like Augustine. I also read up on the roots of Hebrew religion in Babylonian, Persian and Egyptian religion, and the roots of Christianity in the Hebrew and Greek religions. (Hint: it's all a continuum. Christianity is not unique or "correct.")

The Bible doesn't "say" anything special or valuable about sex for humans in the 21st century. Modern sex research, scientific research, is much more illuminating than the sexual practices meant to propitiate antique partriarchal gods, and denigrate the goddesses they sprang from and destroyed.

Where does the Bible address, say, the clitoris? Only in the Song of Songs, which dates back to goddess based culture.
Your quite correct the Bible says very little about sex, the problem isn't the Bible its religion.
__________________
Terry M 67
Chris F 69 (wife)
Jay F 34 (Bi) Girl friend to both of us

"Racing is life, the rest of the time is just waiting around"

Steve McQueen
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-16-2020, 04:02 PM
apexcone apexcone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Alberta
Posts: 11
Default

If anybody would like a copy you can PM me your email and I'll send you a PDF file.
__________________
Terry M 67
Chris F 69 (wife)
Jay F 34 (Bi) Girl friend to both of us

"Racing is life, the rest of the time is just waiting around"

Steve McQueen
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:37 PM.