Help! The role of the 'secondary'.

I thought about this on my way to the post office (where I saw a family of geese including 4 babies goosing about in the middle of the road, SO CUTE!) and I want to add some thoughts...

As we all know, honesty and communication are what makes poly work best, yeah? So as you are getting a lot of advice to ask your husband not to share these things with you...I would actually have trouble with that, unless he also committed to NOT have conversations with her, about you, behind your back. You've got an "honest communication" breakdown going on here, and despite his best intentions and his sweetness, David is at the center of it. I doubt if she is aware that he's sharing her comments with you. She is disrespecting you, him, your family. They talk about you when you're not present, and then you and David talk about her when she is not present. It's almost to the point of gossip even if you originally just wanted to help, and he is just trying to accomodate her feelings. Furthermore, she isn't being honest with herself, because if she can't accept him fully as he is, and hopes to shift him away from what he's got (you, family) then it sounds like she is being a bit delusional. And finally, he doesn't really respect her very much if he's holding on because she's fun to have sex with (or...whatever?) even despite thought patterns and behaviors that bother him, and he's not setting her straight that "Look, lady, I love my family. You either get cozy with that fact, or we're going to have to end this thing."

She needs to be made aware of the harm that she is causing with this stuff, and the fact that he isn't interested in transitioning from his marriage to a mono relationship with her. Now or ever. And the fact that he doesn't keep secrets from you, and you know what she's been saying.

At least that is what I think. *shrug*

This all so true. I prefer kitchen table poly which generally means more information, more communication, more interaction between/amongst metamores. The problem, I think, is that when there is some dysfunction on one end, or with the hinge, what started out as communication and a desire to help becomes gossip and triangulation. In my (granted, limited) experience, it seems like with many people, once gossip and triangulation have become the norm, it's harder to scale back to good, healthy, open, honest communication. That's where my recommendation for minimal communication came from.
 
David doesn't have an evil bone in his body. Him telling me all this stuff is solely to use me as a sounding board. His best friend and confidant... I believed I could be objective, but as time has moved on it is clear that I am now being negatively affected as well.

I think that is one of the hardest things for couples to learn to accept when they are used to always being the soundboard for all problems in a 2 person model.

That is is NOT a 2 people thing any more and "autopilot" stuff won't fly here any more.

The telling person might want to TELL, but (Dave + Allison) data does not only belong to David.

The other person (Allison) may not WANT their information shared with whoever without their consent first.

And the receiving person (you)? Sometimes they are too close to it because they are a person INSIDE the system. They don't want to be overloaded with other people problems. What did they do? Nothing! The better listening ear could be someone outside the "ripple effect" zone. That means a person OUTSIDE the system.

I agree that there's the risk for triangulation if everything is coming through one person. Like "David said that Allison said..." or "David said that I said..." If David being a "sloppy hinge" is part of the problem? If he won't change his bad communication habits then you have to keep and enforce your own communication boundaries so you do not get overloaded. That this is stuff you talk about with him freely, this is stuff that also needs the other person's consent first (be it his partner or yours), that this stuff is just not stuff you talk about.

Do NOT be his sounding board about his relationship with Allison. Encourage him to find someone outside the system to talk to.

That why I suggest earlier that you firm up your boundaries. Tell David you have DONE the soundboard thing, you gave your opinion once already.

So he can either move on to taking action or move on to a different sound board person. You do not need to know this chronic play-by-play. All you need to know is his calendar so you know what to do about childcare and his sex health labs so YOUR sex health is up to date.

He could stop making (David + Allison) problems be (David + you) problems. Either talk to Allison herself and work it out or seek help from someone else outside the system or end it with her.

Stop draining you with it, because you do sound tired of it all and wishing it were DONE one way or the other.

But fine, it's not for her! I can't fault her for that...but now the question remains...WHY do they keep doing this to themselves??

Maybe because there are the stages of grief to get through before arriving at "final acceptance." She might be in "bargaining stage" trying to pretend you don't exist so she can keep going with David rather than accept that no... a poly model is not for her. Not even for David. It just goes against her grain.

He might be in his own stages of grief and bargaining like "if I only find the right soundboard...maybe they can tell me how to solve it."

And because sometimes people have to learn the hard way. You can tell then with words all day long, but if they are not "word learners?" They don't hear it.

They might be "experience learners." So they just have to experience the big ol' mess first hand and feel how awful that is. Before they can understand it and decide "No, never again! Nipping it in bud is way better!" Then they become more assertive/willing to end things sooner the next time it happens because they learned from that prior experience.

My other fear is that this blows up with Allison and David has a hard time finding someone else. How do you reconcile with the guilt that you have someone else, but your partner doesn't?

Do you mean you have an EXPECTATION that you and David will at all times have another partner? Could update the expectations to something more realistic.

Do you mean you would REGRET that he'd be in break up mode while you are doing fine in your other relationship? If so, you could express regrets that he's dealing with break up stuff and be supportive in appropriate ways.

But could let go of GUILT -- your relationship skills are allowed to be different than his relationship skills. You two are different people, at different places on the learning curve, and dating different partners. It's totally different dynamics. Apples and oranges.

Like if this were about cooking skills, would you sit around feeling guilty you can make a good lasagna and he let his chicken go too long and it dried out? Probably not. Different dishes, different cooks, different skill levels. So why get this way about relating skills?

If you see her around, just be "bank teller polite." You probably say "hello, please, and thank you" when you see the bank teller. But you don't hang out with them or go to their birthday parties or call them to chat or anything. Keep it civil but don't go out of your way.

Let them work their stuff out.

IMHO? It doesn't sound good and sounds like it is on the fast track to implosion. Could keep you and kids out of the splash zone and let them learn whatever they need to learn from this experience. Get you in YOUR healing space and let them arrive at theirs whenever it is they want to arrive there.

I know its tough to watch, but you cannot do it for them. :(

FWIW -- I think you going home to visit for 6 weeks would be a WONDERFUL break for YOU to get away from all this mess!

Galagirl
 
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This is a very interesting discussion overall!
Feeling the need to point out...Stable fmf v here. 3.5 years...complete with individual couple and whole family events vacations etc.
I am so glad there is at least one overall happy fmf triade :)

We are nearly 2 years in now, but being honest I can't put myself forward as an example to anyone else. I like and appreciate what we have with Idealist, but I am not completely comfortable with the poly situation, neither is Meta I believe. I am jealous. And I do want to have a primary myself. I miss the monogamous dream of happily ever after (that is, I do want family and I do want to grow old with someone).
I don't want to take Idealist away from Meta though (at least most of the time). They mesh so well together on the practical level, and that's not where the focus of me+him relationship lies - we've got great sexual, emotional, spiritual levels going, but the practicalities might be a real problem.
I cope because I do see that I am a priority to him. Like, a lot of reassurance that he won't leave me, he makes time for me, Meta's wish doesn't count any more then mine, he's participating in my life gradually more, we've got a few goals going together. He's got ways to express love that I need and didn't encounter previously.
I may be a little delusional. I tell myself that maybe I can find a primary and still keep going some of what we have with Idealist, or, if I don't, that I may have children with him someday. (Not my ideal. Would he be a somewhat half-time father? I don't know.)
I don't want to give this relationship up. Also, there are still things I want to discover that don't mesh well with pure monogamy. So yeah I remain conflicted.

GirlFromTexlahome asked, why do we even get involved with someone who can't ride the escalator if you want to ride the escalator. Well, people have conflicting or seemingly conflicting needs all the time (like security of an old relationship vs. enjoying a new beginning..). I'd say I just saw something I wanted in Idealist, fell in love and went for it (and those good things are still in my life). I didn't know much about relationships, so it took some time till I realized that the form of this relationship wasn't going to be neither "burn fast and hard" afair nor fwb.
 
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I may be a little delusional. I tell myself that maybe I can find a primary and still keep going some of what we have with Idealist

I don't want to give this relationship up. Also, there are still things I want to discover that don't mesh well with pure monogamy. So yeah I remain conflicted.

I don't think that's delusional... I married my husband knowing he would always be in some sort of relationship with Stephanie. They've been ... whatever they are... for 25 years now. The romantic/sexual side of things hasn't been constant - she was married and (ostensibly) mono for a while, Andy and I started out sexually monogamous - but they have always been best friends and a huge part of each other's lives. I don't think they've gone more than a few days without talking in all those years, despite living across the world from each other for large parts of it.

I don't think of us as a FMF vee, because my relationship with Andy is soooo different from hers. But we have managed to share Andy for 15 years now. They go away together at least a few times a year. He spends nights at her place a few times a month - if she needs him to, like after her ankle surgery, he'll stay with her for weeks at a time. And that has been our life for as long as I've known Andy. Before we were sexually open, I just trusted him to sleep in her bed and cuddle but not have sex. Yeah we're weird :eek:

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with hoping to find a nesting partner who accepts that Idealist is part of your life!

GirlFromTexlahome asked, why do we even get involved with someone who can't ride the escalator if you want to ride the escalator. Well, people have conflicting or seemingly conflicting needs all the time (like security of an old relationship vs. enjoying a new beginning..). I'd say I just saw something I wanted in Idealist, fell in love and went for it (and those good things are still in my life).

Sometimes I am such a pragmatist I forget other people follow their hearts!
 
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