The other kind of jealousy…

Quick update, because something weird happened:
Arthur had always said that he and Brianna opted for poly because they thought it was the best way of having a relationship. Taking him to the train today I found out that Arthur originally just wanted an open relationship because of the distance (which used to be even bigger than it is right now). As he felt it would be possible that he would romantically fall for someone he was having a sexual relationship with and “didn’t wanna have to choose” – and as they both believed it possible to love more than one person – they chose to go for polyamorous non-monogamy.
He also admitted that Brianna sees herself and him as a primary relationship to others and might even view polyamory as temporary – like believing that at some point they're just gonna go back to monogamy. My jaw dropped so deep I almost tasted the asphalt we were standing on, but seeing as he was already in the train with one foot I felt it would be best to leave it at communicating my discomfort with learning of this so late and a “I feel we should talk more about this when you get back.”.

For me this new version of an origin story changes a lot (I don’t think you should use polyamory to “fix” or “keep” a relationship that would otherwise end) and I feel rather conflicted about the new layer of context it adds to what I know of Arthurs and Briannas relationship.
 
If it makes you feel any better.... people probably have all sort of ideas about how they THINK something is going to go, before reality happens and they actually live the experience.

Ultimately, I think it matters less what Arthur and Brianna wanted in the past, and what their expectations were then, and more what Arthur wants now, and what his expectations are now. And if his wants and expectations have changed and now they are more in line with the type of relationships that you want and who the 2 of you want to be with each other, then great!

And if what he wants and expects now, no longer lines up with whatever Brianna wants and expects now.... well.... that's his business to manage, not yours. It only really matters to you if he does things that then impact your relationship in a way that crosses your own boundaries.
 
Sigh. Hearing that kind of news this far into it rather than up front is not fun. FWIW, I think you handled it with grace. And yes. I think you and Arthur need to talk later.

Yes, over time people can change their minds and what it is they want. But to go from

  • We both opted for poly because we think it is the best way of having a relationship.
to

  • Arthur: I want open relationship because of the distance. And if I fall in love with my local dating partner I don't want to have to choose / break up with my LDR partner.
  • Briana: I want open relationship to deal with LDR. It will be temporary primary-secondary poly and later we will go back to monogamy.

... that's not a small change. Those are very different stories.

If they are not on the same page as each other any more?

If he's doing poly because he dislikes LDR and also hates breaking up with people? Like keep ALL his options open or something?

If she's doing poly thinking it's temporary primary-secondary model to cope with the LDR thing and eventually they will go back to just them?

It sure explains a lot. Like her not happy you leaving things in his flat because that "serious" and not "temporary" to her. Or her trying to be insta-buddies trying to "absorb" you somehow.

And it might mean you don't want to stick around to be caught in the crossfire.

Sometimes I wonder if Arthur is overloading you with his Brianna stuff because he seeing that he IS gonna have to choose. Like first it was the LDR which he thought was manageable. Now it's wanting different things/different values.

Galagirl
 
When Arthur returned, we talked. It wasn't great or bombastically fruitful - partyally cause he had had yet another huge phone fight with Brianna before as well - but I do feel a little better.

Brianna still pushes and he has asked me to meet her when she is in town next weekend. I refused - he tried to reshape it to a "we don't have to decide this now", but he seems to think just getting all three of us in a room will solve everything. I'm fairly certain I won't change my mind, but I'm feeling slightly guilty though - me refusing to meet her will put Arthur in a rather awkward position and I'm scared it'll reflect badly on me. He has already inquired if I even want "this kind of relationship" and pointed out that I won't be able to aviod Brianna forever...

From what I've heard so far here, I don't think anyone would reccomend me changing my mind and meeting with her?
How can I make him understand that this is not about the polyamorous relationship per se but rather my discomfort at Brianna maybe having a different picture in mind than me or him (because of cause i am very careful not to voice poinions about their relationship - it's theirs after all!)?
 
How can I make him understand that this is not about the polyamorous relationship per se but rather my discomfort at Brianna maybe having a different picture in mind than me or him

I suggest you speak plain and state where YOU stand. Maybe something like... (and I quote just to visually block it off)

"Arthur, I've already met her. I thought it was pleasant enough and I thought I was polite enough. I appreciate the invitation to hang out again. But my RSVP is "No, thanks." I don't feel an urgent need to hang again.

Let's be clear -- I do not want to do kitchen table poly at this time. I want to do separate V poly. I also do not do primary-secondary poly. I do co-primary or working toward co-primary. So... what open model is this that you and I practice here?

I don't mind being polite to Brianna if we happen to bump into each other, or hanging out in a group if it's something special to you like a birthday party or Christmas or something. But I don't want to hang out extra on ordinary days. I'm not avoiding her. I respect she's in your life and she's your other GF. I'm happy to give you space and time when she visits and I respect your relationship with her. I just don't want to be best friends with her. You can expect friendly and polite behavior from me toward her on the occasions we are all hanging out in a group. But I get to pick my own best friends and I get to pick where I spend my free time. Thanks for the invitation. My RSVP is a polite "Thanks, but no thanks. Stop asking me.

If Brianna keeps asking you to ask me? When you already know I'm only up for special occassions? You have to STOP bringing this over to this side of the fence. You have firm up your own boundaries and tell her "I see that you want kitchen table poly. She doesn't want that at this time. I will update you if that changes. In the meanwhile, please stop asking me to ask for you. It starts to be like pestering. Ask her directly yourself." And then I will tell her my answer direct so you are not in the middle.

I get the vibe that you seem to think just getting all three of us in a room will solve everything and it will convince me to do kitchen table poly. Well, I don't want that right now. And it's not gonna make me EAGER to get into a tighter model like that when in a separate V model neither of you listens to me or respects my current preferences.

I find it strange that she asks you to ask me to meet, and then you ask me. Then I politely say "No thank you." Then YOU don't respect my limit. You try to reshape it to a "we don't have to decide this now." Why do you do that? I thought I gave my RSVP pretty clear.

What is it YOU want from me? Is it that we are not compatible? You want to be doing kitchen table poly and I want to do separate V poly? You want to be doing primary-secondary? And I want co-primary? Let's talk this out. If we are not compatible then let's let it go."

Keep it on your side of the fence. Don't talk about Brianna or (Arthur + Brianna) problems.

If Arthur says he wants separate V poly? Then ask him to stop bringing things from their side over on this side of the fence and really keep it separate. Deal with his Brianna things over THERE. I get it might be uncomfortable for him if he's been a sloppy hinge and lets her run right over him and now he has to start being firm -- but all that is his/their problem. Not yours.

If Arthur says he wants kitchen table poly and you don't? Not compatible. Let this go. Same with the primary-secondary or co-primary thing.

Keep this way simpler on yourself. Don't "adopt" other people problems. If he needs help working out his Brianna problems tell him you are sorry he's having them. But you cannot be his sounding board on this because you are IN the system. He needs to talk to friends, family or a counselor who is OUTSIDE the dating system.

If his problem is that Brianna keeps pestering him to ask you stuff? He can say "Stop pestering me, Brianna. Ask Kindoflosthere yourself directly rather than making me be the middle man."

And if she asks you to meet and hang out some more? You just be polite. "Oh, you are sweet to ask. I appreciate the gesture. But I do not practice kitchen table poly. I'm only up for hanging out in a group on special occasion things like his birthday or Christmas. I practice separate V poly. Let me know at the next holiday if there's a thing. Thanks for the invite!"

And THERE. Be done.

I'm feeling slightly guilty though - me refusing to meet her will put Arthur in a rather awkward position and I'm scared it'll reflect badly on me.

You do not have to feel guilty. You have done no crime. Why would you being (an actual separate person with your own preferences) reflect badly on you? You aren't allowed to be a separate person?

Arthur has placed himself in this position -- dating two people. I think it is totally reasonable for the hinge to have to deal with hinge things like balancing his time and attention between his partners. Nobody made him be a hinge but him.

From what I've heard so far here, I don't think anyone would reccomend me changing my mind and meeting with her?

No. You already met. You don't want to be best friends. You don't sound like you want to hang out some more. You seem to want a separate V, and be polite if you happen to meet or at special things, but not hang out all the time. Could honor your own preferences.

If Brianna has "Queen Bee" vibes -- let her and Arthur deal with them. You don't have to play that game.

I suggest you talk plainer to Arthur and get firmer with HIM. He picks her out to date. He can deal with her.

She made a request that he ask you to hang out. He met the request and asked. You answered. Request completed. What else does she want from him? Jeez. She might be disappointed in the answer but aren't y'all grown ups? Some things in life go the way one hopes, and sometimes they don't. Why's this a big deal?

And why's she a delicate flower YOU have to tend now so she never feels disappointment, sad, or yucky? :confused: I mean, don't say that to HIM like that. But seriously... why's she a delicate flower YOU now have to tend? How is this your responsibility? YOU aren't dating her.

HE picked her out. Not you.

SHE is the one having tantrum at him. Not you.

Why are you feeling guilty about anything?

If he feels bad when she gives him hell over small stuff? HE has a mouth. HE can say "I met your request. I asked. She doesn't want to hang out extra. Don't be having acting out temper tantrum at me just because you didn't get the answer you wanted. This is not appropriate behavior for an adult.

She prefers separate V poly and doesn't want kitchen table poly. I'm ok with that. So I date her.

She is willing to do special occasions in a group like my birthday or christmas, and you can expect friendly and polite when you are in the same room at those times. She respects you are my other GF and won't intrude on our time. I find that reasonable. Is there something else you wanted?"

Again... don't adopt other people problems. Stay on your side of the fence. Don't get sucked into other people drama. You having healthy boundaries is not you being "mean" to people.

Galagirl
 
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Let's be clear -- I do not want to do kitchen table poly at this time. I want to do separate V poly. I also do not do primary-secondary poly. I do co-primary or working toward co-primary. So... what open model is this that you and I practice here?
Galagirl

I feel like this might be where the whole problem lies: I'm not 100% sure if I can see myself doing separate V poly forever. Like I stated in my original post; I want to be able to imagine my life with the people I'm seeing - going in I definitively had more of a kitchentable thing in mind and (even this is something that I could brush off with "we'll cross that brindge when we come to it") I'm struggeling with imagining a seperate setup in 5 or 10 years in which I'd be happy with. I'm gonna try not to think on that too hard but to talk to Arthur more clearly and let him know how I feel (maybe seperate V for now with a "let's see what happens if we let this develop naturally"?).

I hope you don't understand this as me disregarding your advise, I'm really glad for it, I just wanted you to know how I refelct on it and what my thoughts are.
 
I'm struggeling with imagining a seperate setup in 5 or 10 years in which I'd be happy with. I'm gonna try not to think on that too hard...
Sorry for being blunt.
Is Arthur that special to you?
Why exactly do you choose to not think about it too hard, instead of acknowledging this would be unnecessarily difficult for you and separating?
I mean, maybe he IS that special, ok, but few men are.
 
Yes. And that is why I suggested you say something like...

"Let's be clear -- I do not want to do kitchen table poly at this time."

If you want to say it like

"I prefer a separate V for now with 'let's see what happens if we let this develop more naturally.'" I think that is fine.

Just skip the "maybe" because someone around here has to be FIRM and give clear communication about where they stand.

If they chill out and stop being so weird maybe you all CAN grow to that kitchen table poly place more naturally. But separate V for now gives time for this to unfold and become clear:

Taking him to the train today I found out that Arthur originally just wanted an open relationship because of the distance (which used to be even bigger than it is right now). As he felt it would be possible that he would romantically fall for someone he was having a sexual relationship with and “didn’t wanna have to choose” – and as they both believed it possible to love more than one person – they chose to go for polyamorous non-monogamy.
He also admitted that Brianna sees herself and him as a primary relationship to others and might even view polyamory as temporary – like believing that at some point they're just gonna go back to monogamy.

Because if she thinks it is temporary and eventually going back to monogamy and he agrees? You aren't gonna get long term kitchen table poly here because its not even a real option.

For me this new version of an origin story changes a lot (I don’t think you should use polyamory to “fix” or “keep” a relationship that would otherwise end)
And if he's trying to use you as his "bandaid" then maybe you don't want to be used for that.

So some "separate V" while still getting to know him / them might be better for YOU so you don't get too close and too tight only to get major dinged later. You are only 6ish weeks into dating Arthur. You don't have to put all your eggs in this basket RIGHT NOW, right? It's ok to only put a few.

If there's all this "instant best friends and everyone make Brianna happy dancing to her tune" weird? Then Brianna huffy pants that you don't immediately want to do that and want to go slower? And Arthur pressuring you to do what she wants to make her happy so she doesn't yell at him?

That's a weird dynamic they have. That might be another reason why some "wait and see" might be in order.

You can also reserve the right to bow out if it gets TOO weird and seek kitchen table poly elsewhere with more compatible and less problematic people if they keep on being so odd.

This is the "getting to know you time" and it is ok to take the time to do that. Be leery of people trying to rush you into stuff.

In your first post you explain you just met him in October, you are really new to all of this, and initially you thought it would be casual. Since it is your first poly relationship? There's no need to rush into kitchen table poly with them when they aren't even clear with each other on what it is they want or what sort of Open Model they practice. Or if Arthur's using poly to avoid breaking up or as some sort of exit strategy.

It is OK for you to be cautious. Not everyone you date (even in poly) will be a long haul runner.

So... I suggest you take it slow and be ok with (separate V for now, maybe more later) while you continue to vet them.

You don't have to be doing 5-10 years of separate V here. If they do not meet your personal standards and are too weird? You can end it and move on and seek kitchen table poly with more compatible people if that is what you ultimately seek/want.

Galagirl
 
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What a mess. It doesn't have to be so complicated. GalaGirl has invested lots of time into analyzing and writing down many words about all this stuff.

It's a 6 weekish old relationship. It shouldn't be this messy so early on.

If I was newly dating a guy who was fighting so much with his OSO, and telling me all the bloody details, and asking for my help in keeping her happy... I'd probably back off from seeing him that often, or break it off altogether.

My gf's (my live in partner) bf is a very private person. He let her into his life gradually, and it took 5 years. Now she is welcome at his place whenever she wants. But the first year they only met about twice a month. Then he broke it off for a year because even that was making him feel anxious. When they got back together they started seeing each other pretty much once a week. Then twice a week, and now, finally, sometimes 3 times a week, for an evening or an overnight. And she can invite herself over, he doesn't have to offer the invitation. In fact, I'm going away for 5 days and he asked Pixi to spend the entire time at his place! (She doesn't want to haha, she wants some personal time at our house.)

In this progression, I didn't meet him until the 2 of them were 4 years in. And while Pixi and I would have both liked him to have met me much sooner, and feel comfortable hanging out as a threesome sometimes, or along with a bf of mine, we respected his introversion and never once pressured him to meet me.

But in the past year, Pixi has started seeing him more often, and I have met him 4 times. Even my son met him one day!

So. That's my experience of parallel poly slowly morphing into more of a kitchen table thing over the course of 5 years. All of us respecting each other's desires for contact, or for privacy. Patience on my part and Pixi's part, because we sure didnt want to pressure her bf. I was never thinking he didn't like me. I just saw he was a private person. Despite being in his mid 30s, Pixi is his first serious relationship.

One other point: GG keeps saying you should express your willingness to be with Brianna on a special occasion such as Arthur's birthday or Christmas. But we already discussed how you do NOT want to be with Arthur and Brianna and Cornelius on New Year's Eve. And you said birthdays aren't important to Arthur. So, I don't think you need to be fake and say you're willing to spend an evening with Brianna on some holiday or other. You may not want to meet her in the coming year at all (if you DO stay with Arthur that long, which, given his sloppy V behaviors, I may not recommend). You may not want to meet her for 4 years! And that is perfectly fine.

It sounds to me like Arthur and Brianna have a drama filled relationship, with lots of recent fighting. Maybe you should think about whether doing poly with this guy at all (separate V or KTP) is such a great idea after all... It just doesn't sound very fun.
 
I had a similar issue, back in the earlier days of my relationship with Chops. He and Xena both had dreams of Kitchen Table Poly and maybe a group living arrangement at some point in the future. She really, really liked the idea of having a built-in sister figure / BFF / possible triad, and she really had her expectations set in that direction.

Well... Xena and I never really clicked as friends. She's nice enough. She's a good person, but she's not someone I want to hang out with. She's certainly not someone I want to ever LIVE with, nor be in a relationship with.

Long story short, Xena wanted to spend more time with me. As we spent more time together, I wanted to spend LESS time together, but I wanted to oblige in SOME way (being polite), so I made plans less often. She construed this as a push-pull and got hurt. I kept trying to pull back even more (because it felt like "BE FRIENDS WITH MEEEE!" to me and I was noping the hell out of that), and it came to a head. NOW we have the relationship I'm okay with (seeing Xena on holidays and events, and random group things), and she's managed her expectations to not dive right in to believing she'll be in a triad with people Chops is in a relationship with. It took time, though, and similar problems with other people Chops has dated (it's been 7 years or so now).

My advice? Be blunt NOW. Be frank with Arthur and tell him that maybe kitchen table poly could work UNDER THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES for you, but these are not the right circumstances, and Brianna is not the right person. And shut it down when he pushes for more. He needs to manage his role as a hinge better. If Brianna wants to talk with you, you are not obligated to bend over backwards to accommodate her desires. "No" is a valid answer, and she needs to learn to take it. I was far too accommodating and it led to a lot of bad feelings for a while, especially when I finally said "no". I won't do it that way again. Chops knows it, though. :)

Good luck.
 
Hello everyone!
I stuck to all your advise and very bluntly told Arthur that for now a “Separate V and we’ll see where it goes” is all I can offer and that the Brianna-Drama will have to stay on the other side of the V. I told him to think about how he wants our relationship to look, consider if our ideas coincide and let me know if he thought they didn’t. He didn’t ask me again to meet Brianna this weekend and I’m also getting some drawer space in the closet and bathroom, which I fully intend to use without feeling guilty. I still get pangs of “uuuurg” from time to time, but I’m doing better with not falling into weird thought-cycles and Arthur has gotten (at least a little) better at picking up on it and either diverting or reassuring – which is especially good to feel, because it really makes me feel “heard” and reminds me he is actually working this out as well.:)

Small (and maybe silly) example: he needs to throw out some furniture and buy new ones, basically refurnishing the whole bedroom – he will do that with Brianna this weekend. Now, it didn’t make me happy or hurt or anything, but it was maybe a real “poly” moment to acknowledge that her opinion on this obviously matters a lot to him and that of course he would want her to be part of this (admittedly small but yet very present) decision in his life – and that it still felt very nice and inclusive when he told me that maybe I could help him redecorate after this.

In your first post you explain you just met him in October, you are really new to all of this, and initially you thought it would be casual.
Just wanted to clarify: we met in July, have been going out since August and started a relationship in October. Not because I disagree with what you pointed out – I fully agree! I’m usually someone who moves even slower and the casual part only drizzeled away for me in late September... but Arthur is someone who seems to fall head over heals and had already developed/voiced big emotions in early August – I thought this might help you understand where he is coming from.

Also, special thanks here to @GalaGirl – I can’t help but wonder at how clearly you analyze the situation time and again! The way you cut right through all of it and straight to the matter makes your advice very concise to me and though I know that I don’t have to (and agree with a lot that @Magdlyn sais) I have actually contemplated the idea and told Arthur that – if it is really important for him to have me there – I will join his New Years Party (which has been moved to the town where we live unrelated to any of my-Arthur-Brianna’s relationship, giving me the opportunity to ‘exit’ at any time and retreat to my friends or my home).

@Timwen I do hear you and the thought has crossed my mind. The rosa glasses have definitively fallen off and (especially since I started dating again) I’m aware that there might be “easier” partners or setups – but I’ve never been someone to commit easily and once I do I am willing to at least give it a fair fight (in this case, maybe with a more time I might be able to establish and easier relationship with Brianna or another metamour). If it get’s to the point where sharing my happiness with Arthur diminishes it instead of redubling it, I will leave.

@YouAreHere You’re story has actually given me a lot of hope in this – and if you ever want to share how you got to the point where you are right now or what helped in easing the relationship with Xena, I’d be very interested to hear that!
 
If it helps, here is a link to one of YouAreHere's blogs and one of her posts.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/show...to find help but they are good blogs. Leetah
 
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I stuck to all your advise and very bluntly told Arthur that for now a “Separate V and we’ll see where it goes” is all I can offer and that the Brianna-Drama will have to stay on the other side of the V. I told him to think about how he wants our relationship to look, consider if our ideas coincide and let me know if he thought they didn’t.

Glad you are being firm and clear in your communication. Sounds like so far it's serving you better that way.


Just wanted to clarify: we met in July, have been going out since August and started a relationship in October. Not because I disagree with what you pointed out – I fully agree! I’m usually someone who moves even slower and the casual part only drizzeled away for me in late September... but Arthur is someone who seems to fall head over heals and had already developed/voiced big emotions in early August – I thought this might help you understand where he is coming from.

It doesn't really matter if Arthur is the type of guy who jumps in feet first. He's not the one posting here. YOU are. I think you could honor YOUR pace and worry more about what YOU need. Rather than what Arthur wants or Brianna wants. Cuz you sounded like you were getting lost in the "noise" for a bit there and are just now starting to be firm about what it is YOU are looking for.

Just cuz Arthur and Brianna were the couple that was dating first? That doesn't mean you don't get a voice in the things that concern you.

If he's dating you and you go slower than that? He's gonna have to wait. He cannot RUSH you into stuff. That's not kind. And you don't let yourself BE rushed.

I have actually contemplated the idea and told Arthur that – if it is really important for him to have me there – I will join his New Years Party (which has been moved to the town where we live unrelated to any of my-Arthur-Brianna’s relationship, giving me the opportunity to ‘exit’ at any time and retreat to my friends or my home).

Actually, I thought New Year's was already solved with a "No, thanks" because you thought it was a little much. Sorry if I wasn't clearer.

I agreed you could choose to just skip it if it was too much for you so soon because I think you could honor what YOU need for New Year.

I meant any more FUTURE holiday things? You could be more firm and clear in your communication. Like "I am willing to do some holidays together with notice and be polite. I will not do EVERY holiday, I will not hang out in trio EVERY time she visits." Figure out your boundaries.

You could pick how many shared holidays you want to do in the separate V thing for now.

Maybe you decide holidays case by case as they come up depending on where your energy for all that is at the time. Or like "Arthur you get 3 this semester. Pick which ones are the important to you. "

I'd be leery of just "important to him" because what stops them from them ALL being important? Maybe sometimes you want to be ALONE on a holiday or you want it to be just you and Arthur and not a trio. Figure out how to share holidays and his attention fairly enough while at the same time honoring what YOU need.

You do not need to RUSH into kitchen table poly though. You are still getting to know these people.

Galagirl
 
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So shit hit the fan on the weekend:
Okay, I admit it, I missed Arthur and since he kept texting me (which only made me miss him worse) I asked him to go mute for the rest of saturday and sunday – maybe a little drastic, but while I was having a nice weekend, every text from him gave me this imense pang of sadness, even around my friends and i just felt not having to check and text back and all would give me some more space to breathe and enjoy my time without him.

On Sunday evening I made a big mistake: as Arthur had failed to communicate his schedule for the next week (even though I had asked several times) I had started making plans myself and found myself knowing that I would not be able to see him Monday evening and invited to a date on Tuesday. Now, the man who asked me out and I have been on a few dates – Arthur knows of him and has asked me to disclose to him, when “something happens” – and this time I was invited to his home rather far from where I am staying, implicit invite to stay the night if I would want to. So, idiot that I am (and thinking that it would be helpful for him to know as soon as possible so he could fit it in his schedule), I texted Arthur to ask him if we could meet for lunch on Monday or Tuesday to talk “ground rules” for e.g. communication for a possible overnight stay before I had the date on Tuesday.
What I didn’t know was that Arthur and Brianna again had a rather challenging weekend and had decided to talk Sunday night – yet not had that talk. When Arthur got my text get got antsy and Brianna noticed and asked to have the talk. I don’t know what exactly happened but must have been terrible: hours after my text (of course I didn’t expect an answer right away, after all I had asked to mute) Arthur messaged me to come meet him, answering my “Is everything okay?” with a “nothing is”, sending me in a half panic when suddenly Brianna texted me too, to go se Arthur right away. I was terrified! I thought that I had fucked up and he would just end it or worse, my text might have prompted him to end it with her (the thought made me feel terrible).
Instead I found him in tears, Brianna having left (a day early), telling me he had fucked everything up and hurt Brianna so bad and I was just confused as hell. Long story short: nothing has changed. They had a fight (and it must have been bad), but they decided they wanna fight for their relationship.

But something else changed: Texting me must have been a moment of real desperation for Brianna and it felt like her extending an olive branch, which I have decided to grasp and hold onto for dear life. So, me and Brianna had a (really) brief, yet somehow impactful chat, which ended with me offering to chat more after she and Arthur talked. Today (three days later) I have decided to reach out again, asked how she was doing, told her I see that her and Arthur want all three of us to meet, but that I have problems understanding the ‘why’, that I’m trying to focus on my relationship (admitting that it had been challenging for me, too) and don’t see how crossing over and getting involved in whatever struggels they are facing could help deescalate the situation. I told her I’m having a hard time grasping at what exactly it is Arthur wants us to talk about and told her that if there is anything she’d like to speak about that she thinks might be getting lost in translation she could always let me know.

I know that is probably going against everything that you guys would advise me to do, but it can’t go on like it is and I feel like I’m gonna have to give it one last good shot – especially since the drama on Sunday feels like it was at least partially my fault.

Oh regarding that, I have cancelled the date and told the man I’d need time to sort out my relationship first before I could focus on something new – when he offered to basically wait, I told him not to , it felt unfair. Arthur doesn’t think it’s the right call and feels guilty, but to be honest I just feel like I don’t have the emotional energy to establish a new, meaningful relationship at this point. I liked him, but I felt nowhere as strongly about him as I do about Arthur, so it feels like I made the right call. Please don’t behead me for this :D
 
I'm going to sum up in my own words ok? You correct me if I get anything wrong. I quote some of it just to visually block it off.

  • You ask Arthur not to text you over the weekend. He seems to comply.
  • Sun nite you text Arthur if you can chat Monday or Tues at lunch. Because you and Arthur have not talked boundaries yet and you have a potential overnight date with another guy that might include sex.

Fair enough.

  • Arthur and Brianna spent Sunday fighting.
  • Arthur wants you to come meet him Sunday nite to comfort him after the Brianna fight.
  • Brianna texted you too, to go see Arthur right away. She's not gonna comfort him. Brianna is leaving a day early because "he had fucked everything up and hurt Brianna so bad."

If they make a mess together over on their side of the V why is it your job to go comfort him/clean some of it up? How is that an olive branch?

If you want to go comfort... I guess you can. So long as that doesn't become an enabling habit thing.

Be leery of this though...

I know that is probably going against everything that you guys would advise me to do, but it can’t go on like it is and I feel like I’m gonna have to give it one last good shot – especially since the drama on Sunday feels like it was at least partially my fault.

HOW is it your fault? All you did was ask him to lunch to talk about stuff on YOUR side of the V. Perfectly reasonable request.

He is free to say "No, thanks. X day works better. Does that work for you?"



  • You see that her and Arthur want all three to meet, but that you have problems understanding the ‘why’
  • You are having a hard time grasping at what exactly it is Arthur wants the 3 of you to talk about.
  • You are trying to focus on your side of the V and don’t see how getting involved in whatever struggles they are facing on that side of the V could help deescalate the situation.
  • If there is anything she’d like to speak about that she thinks might be getting lost in translation she could always let you know directly.

Fair enough and certainly clear with Brianna. Not up for meeting in trio at this time. Prefer to stay out of their business. You are up for sharing info more directly.

Arthur doesn’t think it’s the right call and feels guilty, but to be honest I just feel like I don’t have the emotional energy to establish a new, meaningful relationship at this point. I liked him, but I felt nowhere as strongly about him as I do about Arthur, so it feels like I made the right call. Please don’t behead me for this.

Not gonna behead you. YOU choose what you like to do best with your time.

I wonder if Arthur is wearing you out though? Is where you spend your emotional energy at this time making you happy? Are you becoming less GF and more "life raft" for him? Is that good/healthy for YOU?

Galagirl
 
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I edited some of your words for clarity.

...I missed Arthur and since he kept texting me (which only made me miss him worse) I asked him to go mute for the rest of saturday and sunday... I just felt not having to check and text back would give me some more space to breathe and enjoy my time without him.

Nothing wrong with that. When I am apart from my nesting partner, we often go a day or three without texting if either of us is very busy, either with family, friends or dates. Maybe a quick good night text is sufficient, if that.

Arthur had failed to communicate his schedule for the next week (even though I had asked several times). I had started making plans myself, and found myself knowing that I would not be able to see him Monday evening and invited to a date on Tuesday.

I'm not sure who you can or can't see Monday or Tuesday here.

I have been on a few dates with another man. Arthur knows of him, and has asked me to disclose to him when “something happens." [sex]

This time I was invited to OtherDateGuy's home rather far [away], with an implicit invite to stay the night... So, idiot that I am (and thinking that it would be helpful for him to know as soon as possible so he could fit it in his schedule), I texted Arthur to ask him if we could meet for lunch on Monday or Tuesday to talk “ground rules"-- [that is:] communication around overnight stays [with others] before I had the date [with OtherDateGuy] on Tuesday.

I do not see ANYWHERE in this quoted bit that you made a "big mistake" or did something "idiotic"! Why escalate a perfectly reasonable thing you wanted to talk about, to make things open and aboveboard in YOUR relationship with Arthur (and a possible new partner), into something YOU did to damage the already very troubled relationship Arthur has with Brianna?

You need to separate things out. You are way too entangled in what's going on, on the other side of your V!

The fights and talks, or lack of talks, and flounces out the door that A and B are doing, have NOTHING to do with your actions, or presence, or decisions.

What I didn’t know was that Arthur and Brianna again had a rather challenging weekend and had decided to talk Sunday night – yet not had that talk. When Arthur got my text he got antsy, and Brianna noticed, and asked to have the talk.

I don't know why you need to know anything about their talks. They don't concern you.

I don’t know what exactly happened, but must have been terrible: hours after my text... Arthur messaged me to come meet him, answering my, “Is everything okay?” with a, “Nothing is."

Drama! "Nothing" is all right with A and B. That doesn't mean "nothing" is right entirely, or between you and Arthur. He is confusing [A+B] with [A+you].

I was sent into a half panic when suddenly Brianna texted me too, to go see Arthur right away. I was terrified! I thought that I had fucked up and he would just end it, or worse, my text might have prompted him to end it with her (the thought made me feel terrible).

You seem to think you have a lot of power over what goes on between A and B!! You want to discuss boundaries around a sleep over with another person, and somehow you extrapolate that would affect the A and B relationship? Why would you even think that?

Please learn to separate things. Polyamory requires a certain amount of privacy and independence between the various Vs going on.

...I found him in tears. Brianna had left (a day early). He told me he had fucked everything up (with Brianna), and hurt her so bad.

...I was just confused as hell. Long story short: nothing has changed. They had a fight (and it must have been bad), but they decided they wanna fight for their relationship.

So you were confused because you thought that your request to talk about a sleepover with OtherDateGuy had caused a fight between Arthur and Brianna? How does that even follow? Why are you so quick to take responsibility for other people's problems? You won't be able to do poly enjoyably until you let go of your partner's issues with his other partner(s).


Texting me must have been a moment of real desperation for Brianna, and it felt like her extending an olive branch, which I have decided to grasp...

Olive branch? Her wanting to tell you what she fights about with Arthur is a gesture of peace to you... how? Isn't it just a burden on you about something that doesn't concern you?

Brianna and I had a (really) brief, yet somehow impactful chat, which ended with me offering to chat more after she and Arthur talked. Today (three days later) I have decided to reach out again, asked how she was doing.

Why are you taking on the burden of counseling your metamour?

I told her I see that she and Arthur want all three of us to meet, but that I have problems understanding the ‘why’.

Maybe consider why YOU would even want to entertain the role of counseling THEM about THEIR relationship. Who cares why your meta wants you to counsel her? That's just way too entangled for someone you're not even friends with. You've only met her once, for an hour. She's dating your bf. She wants you to help her negotiate her relationship with her bf (whom you happen to share).

Honey, that is not your role. You're too close to the whole thing. Brianna can talk to other friends about her mess. So can Arthur.

Once again, I'd consider stepping back from Arthur until if and when he and Brianna sort things out, on their own, with help from other friends, or a counselor. It sounds yucky, and gross, and exhausting for you... and almost like triangulation. Playing you and Brianna against each other.


I’m trying to focus on my relationship [with Arthur] (admitting that it had been challenging for me, too) and don’t see how crossing over and getting involved in whatever struggles they are facing could help de-escalate the situation. I told her I’m having a hard time grasping at what exactly it is Arthur wants us to talk about.

I really really think the above is something to tell Arthur, not Brianna. ie:

"Arthur, I don't want to hear anything more about the fights between you and Brianna. And I'm going to step back from you for X amount of days or weeks. Because you can't focus on me right now while you and Brianna's relationship is in so much trouble."

I told her that if there is anything she’d like to speak about, that she thinks might be getting lost in translation, she could always let me know.

No. Not your role. You have a leaky hinge (Arthur). He wants you ladies to talk to each other and sort things out, since he seems incapable of doing it. That makes for a bad hinge. I'd lose respect for a partner who can't keep a healthy boundary between his 2 separate relationships. I'd step back. Firmly. Someone's got to be firm!

What are you getting out of being close to a partner who is having so much trouble in another relationship and sharing the gory details? Why do you think you need to counsel your meta? Is it satisfying to you somehow? Do you think this is how poly is "supposed" to work?

I know that is probably going against everything that you guys would advise me to do, but it can’t go on like it is and I feel like I’m gonna have to give it one last good shot – especially since the drama on Sunday feels like it was at least partially my fault.

It wasn't. I hear you feel it was, but it really wasn't. The only thing your fault is you thinking something that needed to be discussed between you and Arthur about overnights with others, could cause a fight between him and your Brianna. You seem to have a too ready guilt complex. Where does this come from?

I have cancelled the date, and told OtherDateGuy I’d need time to sort out my relationship [with Arthur] first before I could focus on something new. When he offered to basically wait, I told him not to, it felt unfair.

Unfair to OtherDateGuy? Why? You may indeed see changes in your self awareness about how to do poly with Arthur in the coming weeks, pulling back while he sorts things out with Brianna, etc. Maybe you could have a fun date or 2 with OtherDate while Arthur is having all his drama with Brianna...

Or later, if and when Arthur calms the fuck down and is ready to be a better bf to you.

Arthur doesn’t think it’s the right call, and feels guilty. But to be honest, I just feel like I don’t have the emotional energy to establish a new, meaningful relationship at this point. I like OtherDate, but I felt nowhere as strongly about him as I do about Arthur, so it feels like I made the right call.

There is no need to "establish a meaningful relationship" with OtherDateGuy or anyone else right now. Why so serious with ALL of this? The beginnings of any new relationship, or sexy fun friendship, or whatever, with anyone, should be easy and enjoyable. You're foundering in the drama between A and B. You're also dwelling on "establishing a meaningful relationship" with the other guy, whom you barely know. It sounds exhausting.

Take it easier on yourself.

Please don’t behead me for this :D

There's a lot of hyperbole in your post. Take a breath. Learn to see where your responsibilities lie, and WHERE THEY END.
 
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This will be my last post:

I texted with Brianna. We talked about problems of transparency and privacy and how to keep trust on one side while giving room to intimacy to the other side, it was friendly and constructive. But in the end it turned out to again being her jut putting on a façade, then ranting to Arthur after, then her deciding that she wants no contact, then her deciding she wants a written kind of contract between the three of us (the two of them already have one), then threatening me I’d be a secondary if I didn’t take part in the “negotiation”. I was upset and Arthur intervened – I did not have to do any of this and after another emotional talk with Arthur (telling him I was sick of this and wouldn’t do it over and over again) I was spared Brianna drama for a few nice and calm days.

Then the weekend – remember guys, Brianna and Arthur are taking time apart, so he was here this weekend! - Brianna asked Arthur to proposing the two of us to have a written agreement as well as the two of them. I don’t want one and don’t see the need for one and upon requiring if Arthur felt differently he offered up he didn’t see the need for one either, it would just make it easier for Brianna. So we agreed, there would not be written relationship-contract between the two of us.
Relaying this to Brianna must have caused a fight lasting numerous days, which led to her breaking up with him (over the phone) – while I was rather unsuspecting (I was moving to a new apartment that day and only saw Arthur briefly in the morning). Arthur then first stood me up for our “moving in date” in the evening and then called me around 10pm to tell me that Brianna was gonna take a train to where we live, will arrive at 12 in the night to have a negotiation/talk/whatever between the three of us – if I refuse she would end it with him once and for all. I was shocked and angry, but hearing how hurt and lost he was, I agreed reluctantly. 20 Minutes later he then turned up at my doorstep uninvited: he had heard my disapproval of Brianna coming up in the middle of the goddman night and told her that I don’t want any of this, giving her the impression that I wasn’t up for a polyamorous relationship anymore – she ended it.
Now he was upset, I was angry (because of course I meant the way both of them were forcing my hand in this, not the whole concept of polyamory!) and while we sort out where this went wrong
[ On the phone:
Him: “She just wants to know if you want this and how you want it?”
Me: “The way you two are doing his right now, I really don’t want any of it!”]
He had this crazy idea that we (together) should call Brianna in order to “sort things out”. I told him that I would of course stay with him for the call if he needed me, but I didn’t see how I could contribute and that I would not to his dirty work and basically fight for their relationship for him.
So we called. It was a tense, but normal call – no yelling, screaming or names calling of any kind. But it was basically Brianna holing me and him looking. I stayed for about 10 Minutes, then left the two to sort out their relationship, tried to sort out MY thoughts on MY relationship and when I returned about half an hour later, Brianna and Arthur had broken up.


While one could assume that this now was the end of the drama (and I had certainly kinda hoped so), only two days in he told me that he doesn’t want it to be over and she doesn’t want it to be over, so they will keep talking and seeing if they can sort it out.

I left to go to my parents over the holidays, giving him and me space.

But things escalated again: I was supposed to go visit Arthur in the time between christmas and New Years (because he was still gonna spend New Years with Brianna). Yesterday morning Arthur informed me that he has managed to persuade Brianna to let him pick her up on his way home today and that they will spend christmas and the time till New Years together, he’s sorry he won’t be able to see me. When I voice that this hurt and irritated me, he talked to Brianna and then offered to drive down to my parents to meet me instead in between the days – implicit “well Brianna will stay at my parents and I’ll go see you, we agreed that’s okay”. I don't know why this bothered me so much, but the feeling of her 'generously allowing us this' really didn't sit well with me so I told him to call me later the day once I figured out how I feel about that.

When we talk (about 4 hours later) he was unable to focus on myrequest to please not communicate changes of plans like this because while the outcome was the same, the context now made me feel very insecure about my position in this.
Instead the talk went time and again to Brianna and it turned out he had (in his words) "somehow fucked up" and she had blocked him. After a lot back and forth, I started to guilt trio myself for beeing the reason/catalyst/whatever he was so unhappy - I realized I do that a lot, I don’t remember who here pointed it out but I’ve decided to maybe even talk to a therapist about it, because honestly, this time it got me in such a bad position: I texted Brianna and asked her to please unblock Arthur, which she then did.

So they somehow sorted things out and now Arthur and her are gonna go through with the Christmas-till-New-Years-together plan.
And I’m almost decided on ending it, as soon as the holidays are over (or maybe tonight, I'm afraid to be overhasty, but I also don't want to drag it out and wait for the next drama!).

I’m not sure if it is me being unable to keep myself our of their relationship, Arthur not being able to separate or Brianna pushing her way over or maybe all or nothing. I don’t think I can do it anymore and have arrived at the point where I don’t feel support and comfort from the relationship anymore, but anxiety and anger.
I might try establishing another polyamorous relationship once I have recovered from this rollercoaster, I’m not sure though. I miss the easy stability of monogamy now and I dread having to make another experience like this.
Arthur has confessed in our talk yesterday that he would not try non-monogamy again, he thinks he’s not made for it and I agree. I hope that after I end it, he and Brianna will find a way to work shit out (and I sincerely hope Cornelius doesn’t get screwed over in the process) and I will find someone who is a little more stable in whatever form of relationship is chosen.

I know this is a rather depressing last post, but I wanted to bring this to a conclusion and not leave all of you hanging – you have been an incredible support and clear eye in all of this and I am very grateful I had all of you! Maybe in a year or two I’ll revisit this and sum this up with a more objective, positive look. Until then – Merry Christmas to all of you and I hope you have a happy, healthy and successful 2019!
 
Sigh. So much drama.


Instead the talk went time and again to Brianna and it turned out he had (in his words) "somehow fucked up" and she had blocked him. After a lot back and forth, I started to guilt trio myself for beeing the reason/catalyst/whatever he was so unhappy - I realized I do that a lot, I don’t remember who here pointed it out but I’ve decided to maybe even talk to a therapist about it, because honestly, this time it got me in such a bad position: I texted Brianna and asked her to please unblock Arthur, which she then did.

I hope you do see a therapist about that. You seem to take responsibility for other people's problems a lot.

It's not really your job to ask Brianna to unblock Arthur. Could have let them sort out their business without your involvement.

So they somehow sorted things out and now Arthur and her are gonna go through with the Christmas-till-New-Years-together plan.
And I’m almost decided on ending it, as soon as the holidays are over (or maybe tonight, I'm afraid to be overhasty, but I also don't want to drag it out and wait for the next drama!).

Arthur and Brianna? They are WEIRD. Stay away. End it with him/them. People are usually on their best behavior in the early days of dating. Trying to show their best side, putting best foot forward, etc.

If THIS is what they have for best when it's just thinking about entering some sort of poly together? And she has to be Queen Bee and everything revolves around her feeling good?

Bow out. Spare yourself more grief. Just end it yourself.

I’m not sure if it is me being unable to keep myself our of their relationship, Arthur not being able to separate or Brianna pushing her way over or maybe all or nothing. I don’t think I can do it anymore and have arrived at the point where I don’t feel support and comfort from the relationship anymore, but anxiety and anger.

Bow out. You have to be able to say "No. I like/love you a whole lot. But not even for you will I do things or stay in things that hurt me."

I might try establishing another polyamorous relationship once I have recovered from this rollercoaster, I’m not sure though. I miss the easy stability of monogamy now and I dread having to make another experience like this.

I'm sorry your first attempt was so wonky. It's ok to return to monogamy if you prefer.

Arthur has confessed in our talk yesterday that he would not try non-monogamy again, he thinks he’s not made for it and I agree. I hope that after I end it, he and Brianna will find a way to work shit out (and I sincerely hope Cornelius doesn’t get screwed over in the process) and I will find someone who is a little more stable in whatever form of relationship is chosen.

I think Brianna wants Open for her, but not for Arthur. He's got to figure out what HE needs for his own well being. He doesn't sound all that happy with the up and down, but that is NOT your problem to solve. It is his.


I hope all the tumult lessens for you at least. And that your holidays are good.

GL!
Galagirl
 
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Hi Kindalost,

I'm sorry things have ended so badly for you, Brianna is the biggest problem, but Arthur is enabling Brianna. I'm also saddened to hear that poly itself has left a bad taste in your mouth. I hope that sometime in the future you'll be open to trying it again, but I couldn't blame you if you were turned off from it permanently. I know your experience with Arthur and Brianna has been very bad. :( Please do not hesitate to post in the future should you ever feel the need.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Hello beautiful people!

I bet none of you ever expected an update on this crazy story, but I thought it would be unfair to leave this as it is:
The morning after I wrote my last post, Arthur called me to confess he and Brianna had not been able to work things out and were now separated for good.
We took some time apart, after that talked a lot about what had happened between the two of us, tried to figure out if we still want to be with each other, if he would be able to let go of Brianna, if I would be able to let go of my frustration with the weird dynamic we had had… and we decided to try.
Since then things have been surprisingly warm and calm.
Of course it was hard in the start: I’ve never had to console a partner going through a breakup and Arthur had ended a five year relationship while trying to build a new relationship with me - but we’re now reaching a point where I feel confident to say we made it through!

Yes people, we are still together; we’re going strong and steady, we’ve just celebrated our first Valentines Day and we are happy! <3 Of course we’re still working out all that happened between us - on our own and with the active help of a therapist (friend of his family, so taken with a grain of salt) - but our relationship has deepened so much and I feel more confident about it every day.

We have talked about our experience and thoughts about polyamory, but for now we have been functionally monogamous. Arthur has voiced that he would want to stay monogamous on his side (though he still considers himself polyamorous as opposed to monoamorous) as he thinks he currently lacks the communication skills and emotional independence to be part of a larger poly-cluster, but he would be open to me pursuing other relationships (more in style of an open relationship, swinging or playmates) if I wish to do so. I on the other hand, have had to face that my wish for (sexual) freedom might be linked to my desire for validation – as you know I’ve also struggled with taking responsibility for others, trying to accommodate and please and my therapist thinks I might be using sexual/romantic relationships as a way of proving to myself that I am “wanted” and valued. So at the moment I’m not dating and cutting down on going out (though both Arthur and me think a healthy amount of flirting can’t hurt and I still get to tease and massively over-tip the cute barista at our favorit café).

I’ve been down the rabbit-hole of “Did I force Arthur into this? Was my incapability to be poly maybe why it didn’t work? Is it weak to consider going back to mono?”, but I’ve gotten over it and wanted to share an insight that might seem silly but was massively helpful to me when the therapist pointed it out: Every relationship is different and a relationship dynamic changes - sometimes over time, sometimes over circumstance, sometimes for no visible reason whatsoever. Change is not bad, it’s the natural sign that we are still moving.

So, I guess that’s what I wanted to share: I’m happy, I’m hopeful and I’m still moving. Wish me luck!
 
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