Putting 'cheating' in it's place

GroundedSpirit

New member
In many of the discussions that that take place when venturing into 'poly territory', there's one in particular that always draws a lot of strong emotional reactions.
It's the subject of "cheating".

Now, like so many other terms, it's helpful to have an agreed upon definition in order to have a productive discussion. For the sake of this post only I'm going to keep it within the framework of "emotional or sexual interaction with another outside of an existing marriage or committed relationship".

Because this is where much of the problem lies. In many marriages and relationships there is an ASSUMPTION of emotional and sexual fidelity that was in fact never truly agreed on ! In fact, in many cases it's hardly discussed. Therin lies the danger of assumptions ! It's a cultural norm at this point that once two people declare themselves "in relationship" that fidelity is a built in part of that term. It again is 'assumed' that if there is conflict with this that there will be a parting of ways.

Polyamory, as well as other forms of AGREED non-monogamy of course, refute that principal. Then of course there is actual discussion that takes place, agreements are (hopefully) reached on how other loves will flow into the existing relationship.

But that is another subject.
Right now I'm trying to dig into the terrible scars that are often (or claimed) to exist from this 'cheating' - i.e. lack of discussion & agreement prior. Because these scars and bad history often make non-monogamous relations far more complicated than they need to be. And result in the failures of some.

But are these scars really justified ?
How many of us are truly scarred by the lack of Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy ? Or that we can blindly trust other human beings to act in OUR best interest ? For most, that 'awakening' happened in Jr High - or before. Hell yea, we look back on times of lost innocence and wish it could be otherwise. But it isn't, and for the most part we move on with our lives. albeit in a bit of a more defensive posture. It's ok.

Why do we assign this 'cheating' so much higher a status than the other discoveries we make about weaknesses in human nature ?

My belief is that it's just another example of the cultural definitions - especially that lay seed for potential 'victims' ! Everybody needs to be a 'victim' ! Think of the poor psychotherapy profession and the pharmacutical industry ! Millions could be affected !

But I feel it's only a choice - nothing more.

Sexual and emotional monogamy - especially without proper education, analysis and discussion goes counter to human nature for the most part. Given the right place and circumstances a majority of people will fail a test of monogamy. Especially when they believe no harm will come to anyone !

And in the majority of cases (there are exceptions obviously), any real 'harm' is little more than the popping of another cultural 'bubble'. Aother myth exposed. No more.

Yes, I've been 'cheated' on - and have 'cheated' by definition at some point in my/our lives. Difference possibly being is that we understand the root of this, cry foul only because of our prior inability to communicate properly about complex parts of a relationship. Wiser now, we see no need (or justification) for hanging on to 'mythical scars'. No going around cutting ourselves on a daily basis.

In hindsite, it seems the only real foul here was ignorance.

I believe ANYONE has the capability to move beyond that !

GS
 
I think you have a valid point GS. It's a topic that is strongly addressed in the last half of the last book by Jean Auel. It's also something that I've considered. Because, I was cheated on, by my oldest daughters father. Repeatedly, painfully and ultimately got an incurable STD out of it. I was 14 when we started dating.
After growing up, it was just obvious to me that he needed something I wasn't prepared to give. The details don't matter, what matters is, that it didn't mean he didn't care; I know he did, he still does and so do I. It was SIMPLE-he had needs, I couldn't meet them and he found a way to get them met.

Lots of things could have been done different, but it is what it is and there isn't any healthy purpose in holding animosity over it.

What I've noticed is, people who hold tight to that "you fucked me over" attitude, are ALSO holding on to being miserable and creating a blackhole vacuum of pain and misery that no one else wants to be around.

The ones who let it go and move on-find happiness, joy and love.


We ALL hurt someone at some point, to make one type of pain "more important" than another, sets us up for more problems. The truth is-that it hurts when we don't expect something and it slams into our insecurities of not being good enough, not being loved etc. If we want that pain to stop, then we need to stop associating the action with our insecurity. They don't necessarily pertain to each other anyway!


I cheated on Maca. There's a lot of things I could have done differently-I do them differently now. It was NEVER about not loving him. It was about loving myself too. It was about fulfilling my needs. I didn't KNOW how to do it right. Just like parenting-we learn as we go, hopefully we improve as we go.

BUT, if we don't give each other grace to make mistakes, learn from them and then move on..... well, we don't get to experience the improved upon relationship that comes after a lesson is learned.
 
I agree with LR those who are able to move on, forgive and have that much strength are indeed better off.

I don't think that one should just simply let it all go though. As LR touched on, there is a purpose to holding on to anger, hurt and pain over cheating for a time, sometimes always, even just a bit. It protects and keeps a person safe. There is nothing wrong with that.

I have noticed that the most successful of those who get over cheating are those who have held that for as long as need be and then found it doesn't serve them any more and let go.

While its a good reminder to people who come here that they can eventually let it go, at least most of it, I don't think it serves to blow them off and not validate the HUGE pain that can come from cheating. I don't think blowing them off adds anything to their process of healing. Being patient with their process and allowing them to know that they might just be dealing with this for the rest of their life, I think, makes them realize that, shit, I don't want to deal with this for one day more, let alone forever; what shall I do about it.... it can have the effect of creating a catalyst to let go, where that might not exist if they are told to just let it go... does that make sense?

To me its like telling someone who is mono to just let their poly partner do whatever they want and to just let them go... it all takes time and work to get there. Doing that to early can have disastrous results I think, and cause MORE harm than good. To me the journey is the thing, not the end result.
 
Is it possible that cheating is SUCH a big deal because being married is the ideal to which we "should" strive in our society? When someone cheats, they undermine this "achievement".

Perhaps if we didn't tie our identity so closely to our marriages/relationships/etc. cheating would not be such a slap in the face?

About six months ago, a friend of mine told me her husband had cheated on her. She was a wreck. I realized I really couldn't relate to her. I was very sorry for her pain, but I couldn't think of anything Indigo could do that would cause me that much hurt. Other friends were making rumbles that she should leave him, but I mentally shrugged it off and wasn't surprised when she did decide to work things out.

I'm amazed at how much my perspective has changed on this subject in the last couple of years. I used to think anyone who didn't immediately split up with their cheating partner was a moron and just asking for more cheating. Now when I hear about it, I wonder how they can work on the underlying cause and move past it.

Not sure how much of this is poly, and how much is just growing up. ;)
 
I know for me personally the pain from the cheating wasn't in the sex with another person. I'm good with that. :)

The pain came from the lying about it, the saying they were in one place, when they were another. The loss of trust when all of a sudden you can't believe anything a person says because they aren't being honest.

I think if there hadn't been sex involved, yet I found out my SO was lying to me on a regular basis I would have been just as hurt. The pain for me was even worse because we had an open relationship and I had been blatantly clear from day 1 that I didn't expect monogamy, but I did expect honesty. I made that VERY clear. And I guess I felt like since I had required so little, to have that one little thing that I asked ran over was like being told I wasn't allowed to ask for anything. That my needs weren't important at all. That the other person would do whatever they wanted to get thier way without any regard to me.

Again, to me, the issue isn't about sex with someone else. It's about lying. And honesty is the one thing I am very serious about.
 
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If you are with somoe one who values sexual fidelity, cheating is flat out the most selfish act through which you can inflict pain on a person you supposedly love. It's indicative of a lack of self control, weak character or a general lack of human concern; all of which I have exhibitied in the past. The inability to control ourselves in the moment and not seek a better path to those sexual/emotional goals reflects a person who is trapped, broken, or has very little empathy.

The inability to control oneself "in the moment" is also an indication that we are more influenced by our reptilian brain than our thinking one. I hold people above all other types of life when it comes to being self aware and possessing the ability to reason beyond getting our own needs met.

For some people robbing a bank, or breaking into a persons house is not a big deal. I don't have the same values as those people.

Opinions on cheating should probably be discussed when relationships are developing so that all partners can avoid dissapointing each other with thier different values.

That's all I'll say about cheating...I own my opinion and don't expect anyone else to accept my views. I also wouldn't engage someone in a relationship who doesn't share them.

People all make mistakes....and if you are healthy you learn from them. When you repeat mistakes, seek treatment because you are broken.
 
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Again, to me, the issue isn't about sex with someone else. It's about lying. And honesty is the one thing I am very serious about.

This I can see and understand. But it feels like cheating is given far more weight than other serious lies. How did sexual fidelity become so important to us?
 
I totally get that to some people sexual cheating is the worst of lies.
What I don't get is why some of these same people can excuse cheating (the breaking of vows) in all other arenas EXCEPT sex.

I find it very.... two-faced that one can break ALL of their wedding vows except having sex with someone else, adn that is "not as bad" as if their partner has sex with someone else, but keeps all of the other vows....

:rolleyes:

I tend to agree that there's something about the way we prioritize THAT vow over all others, instead of prioritizing all of them.

I read an interesting book last week (funny as hell) about French women and she made some HUGE points on the differences in how the French view marriage and fidelity versus the way American's (US) view those things. It was VERY enlightening (sorry, can't recall the name of the book at the moment).
 
Thanks everyone so far for weighing in ! Some good stuff coming........


TruckerPete said:
I used to think anyone who didn't immediately split up with their cheating partner was a moron and just asking for more cheating. Now when I hear about it, I wonder how they can work on the underlying cause and move past it.[

Not sure how much of this is poly, and how much is just growing up. [/quote]

Exactly my point ! We, in the beginning, don't KNOW any better. It's what we are taught. We're taught that monogamy is easily managable. Key word here "easily". It isn't. Most everyone over 15 knows that now. But we AREN'T taught how to manage it - or dispose of it in a kind, responsible manner. And so we have what we have.

LR also keys in on this.......
LovRad said:
It was NEVER about not loving him. It was about loving myself too. It was about fulfilling my needs. I didn't KNOW how to do it right. Just like parenting-we learn as we go, hopefully we improve as we go.
Mono said:
If you are with somoe one who values sexual fidelity, cheating is flat out the most selfish act through which you can inflict pain on a person you supposedly love. It's indicative of a lack of self control, weak character or a general lack of human concern;

Is it ? (most selfish)
I can think of any number of things I'd consider more selfish and potentially damaging ! We can just start with driving drunk with the kids in the car. I'm sure you can think of 100 more too :)
I think TruckerPete asked the relevant question also. How DID sex - or even emotional connection get put on a pedastle so far above so many more obviously damaging things. The damage done by the reaction to the 'infidelity' generally far outweighs the damage from the infidelity itself.


RedPep said:
there is a purpose to holding on to anger, hurt and pain over cheating for a time, sometimes always, even just a bit. It protects and keeps a person safe.

Really ? Does it ?
How does feeding negative emotions - giving them power - which DOES affect our daily lives (and health) and interaction help ?
Or is it the lesson we hope we've learned that can protect us from future pain ?

and

While its a good reminder to people who come here that they can eventually let it go, at least most of it, I don't think it serves to blow them off and not validate the HUGE pain that can come from cheating. I don't think blowing them off adds anything to their process of healing.

I'm sorry if my choice of words or tone came across as a "blow off" to anyone. Obviously it was not intended that way. I'm guilty of not prefixing with my usual "don't take this personally" disclaimer :) Hard subjects often draw hard reactions.

Minxxa said:
I know for me personally the pain from the cheating wasn't in the sex with another person. I'm good with that.

The pain came from the lying about it, the saying they were in one place, when they were another. The loss of trust when all of a sudden you can't believe anything a person says because they aren't being honest.


Ahhhhhhhhh........and now we have it !

Because isn't this REALLY what's at the bottom of it ? Any violation of our trust cuts deep. Our relationships with other people are the framework of our lives. We're a social species and highly interdependant. Trust equals safety (in theory). Violate our trust and you violate our safety (in our minds).
Our "trusts" are violated from the time we are young children. But it's often the case that what we "trusted" was mostly a creation of our own mind.

It's the picture WE painted about how life is/should be. And maybe we had some 'assistant' painters along the way. If we are wrong about that interpretation, eventually someone/something is going to burst our bubble. The latex paint won't hold up to the salt atmosphere of real life.

Is it time to stop blaming the paint ? Or the salt ?
 
any violation of trust hurts, this is true. I think sex is put so high on a pedestal because it's such an interpersonal thing. even in a monogamous relationship, I don't believe there is anything saying that you can't love other people. you love your friends, you love your new extended family, etc but it's a different kind of love. sex is something that is supposed to be an exclusive thing. in poly you are extending full love, sexual and emotional, a whole different kind of relationship with others. cheating in a poly relationship would be crossing any number of boundaries that were set I think, violating the trust of your partner. maybe I'm way off the mark but thats how I look at it.
 
When my husband cheated on me, I remember feeling like the world was falling apart, in the same way as when a family member died. How I got to poly is a long story...

We had grown up together, and were super-christian. Our wedding ceremony included vows that indicated fidelity in an obvious and explicit way. It didn't feel like an *assumption* of fidelity to me. I think that if he had wanted non-monogamy, he was responsible to ask first. And like Mono, I found the betrayal to be quite self-centred of him. I believed that he hadn't thought of me at all when he made the choice to have affairs.

In the present, I can see that he did think about me, and that the lying was a huge part of the feeling of betrayal. But beyond that, there was a feeling of being disrespected... of being duped into giving my rights away. For one, he left me behind in the emotional space where I stayed fidelitous for a very long time. But also, it didn't give me choices: to state my preferences or negotiate our life together, to get to know his lovers in a positive fashion, or leave until it was already a huge deal.

Ultimately, though, his habit of doing things in secrecy and without my input led to the end of our relationship as husband & wife. Though not of our friendship, or of my exploration of poly.
 
Hi Seasnail,

Thanks for chiming in because from your writing it sounds like your situation (and reaction) are great examples of what we're talking about. And trying to gets some ground laid to do 'better'.

When my husband cheated on me, I remember feeling like the world was falling apart, in the same way as when a family member died.

Looking back (hindsight always 20/20) was this 'feeling' legitimate ? Is a feeling of betrayal at the same level as an actual death of a loved one ?


Seasnail said:
....We had grown up together, and were super-christian.
That says something in itself. Religion has been responsible for the largest share of brainwashing people in a monogamous direction.

Seasnail said:
... Our wedding ceremony included vows that indicated fidelity in an obvious and explicit way. It didn't feel like an *assumption* of fidelity to me.

For a majority of people - words spoken on a page. Many people take 'vows' all the time - anything from clubs they join to licenses they are getting that have vows attached. We don't pay a lot of attention to the details of these 'vows' as a rule - it's just a process we go through. Maybe it's different for YOU ? :) But generally speaking.........





Seasnail said:
.....I think that if he had wanted non-monogamy, he was responsible to ask first.

Wouldn't this be great ?
But this is kind of at the heart of this discussion. We don't know HOW ! Don't even know (or believe) that's an option. No training/education/examples to follow.
That's what's so broken.
It's NOT that monogamy is automatically a bad thing. It's that we aren't told it's not the only option. And like you alluded to, these great sneaky little traps that are embedded in vows, culture etc that set the scene for drama and crying foul.

Wouldn't it really be entirely different if in your prenup sessions you had been aware of the fact that relationships grow and change over time and that monogamy was a totally negotiable thing (without impacting the quality of the existing relationship).
But that isn't what most people believe when they enter into a relationship. Especially in the first one or two (youth/inexperience). We're drowning in NRE and heavily injected with the "happily ever-after" myth.
And for a majority, that bubble eventually bursts and here we are with little education & training on where to go from there - physically or emotionally.


The rest of the stuff you touch on that you felt or were shortchanged on are great examples of how different it COULD have been had the knowledge been there.

Thanks again........

GS
 
Looking back (hindsight always 20/20) was this 'feeling' legitimate ? Is a feeling of betrayal at the same level as an actual death of a loved one ?

That says something in itself. Religion has been responsible for the largest share of brainwashing people in a monogamous direction.

For a majority of people - words spoken on a page. Many people take 'vows' all the time - anything from clubs they join to licenses they are getting that have vows attached. We don't pay a lot of attention to the details of these 'vows' as a rule - it's just a process we go through. Maybe it's different for YOU ? :) But generally speaking.........

No, betrayal isn't the same as death. Though it is very similar, because it changes almost every dynamic of your life. I think the differences were in time span, and my ability to talk about it and release the hurt. I think this is because my reaction wasn't what it's "supposed" to be: I didn't want to end our relationship, I wanted to work it out and re-build trust.

And yes, for ME those vows were serious and intentional. For HIM, they were BOTH an expression of love and committment AND a very poor fit. I agree there are a lot of ways the church didn't serve us very well, especially in this.... as you say, we just didn't have any of the tools to talk about it.

Sometimes I wonder, if he had come to me earlier to ask for an open relationship how I would have reacted. It's a puzzle I can't really figure out. It's not like we didn't know about polyamory: we have several friends in common that have practiced poly for several years, and yet it STILL felt so alien to me. It's like I blocked the issue into separate parts of my brain. I guess that's what brain-washing is.

He had three or four affairs over the years, and told me about them at around the same time they ended. The last time, I walked in on him with his lover, and I threw her out of our house and demanded that he never see her again... it ate at me for a whole week, and then I went to her to apologize for being so abrupt and asked if we could talk it through in a kindly fashion instead. I felt crazy. I knew I "should" have thrown both of them out of the house and abandoned them both. But ultimately, compassion for them as individuals and as a couple was too hard to ignore.

If the brainwashing hadn't existed, and if there had been trust remaining on my side, and fear of judgement and consequences for my career, I think that instead of a long drama of her-or-me, okay-both, fuck-no-this-isn't-working, it would have been a story of okay-both-wow-this-takes-work.

How to get to that place where monogamy isn't assumed, THAT is a good question. My lover has a live-in GF, and many of my friends know that. Some are supportive, some accept it but don't realise when their bias shows, and some simply won't acknowledge that the relationship is anything more than friends. And admittedly, I don't push what they're comfortable with very often... though I'd like for everyone to be supportive, I want to respect how quickly they can accept a different paradigm because I remember how long it took me and how hard it was to do. I think we can easily forget all of the real and imagined risks that come from changing our ways once we've experienced the benefits of polyamory.
 
When my husband cheated on me, I remember feeling like the world was falling apart, in the same way as when a family member died. How I got to poly is a long story...

We had grown up together, and were super-christian. Our wedding ceremony included vows that indicated fidelity in an obvious and explicit way. It didn't feel like an *assumption* of fidelity to me. I think that if he had wanted non-monogamy, he was responsible to ask first. And like Mono, I found the betrayal to be quite self-centred of him. I believed that he hadn't thought of me at all when he made the choice to have affairs.

In the present, I can see that he did think about me, and that the lying was a huge part of the feeling of betrayal. But beyond that, there was a feeling of being disrespected... of being duped into giving my rights away. For one, he left me behind in the emotional space where I stayed fidelitous for a very long time. But also, it didn't give me choices: to state my preferences or negotiate our life together, to get to know his lovers in a positive fashion, or leave until it was already a huge deal.

Ultimately, though, his habit of doing things in secrecy and without my input led to the end of our relationship as husband & wife. Though not of our friendship, or of my exploration of poly.

Wow! This sounds scarily familiar. The first time my husband cheated, I refused to see the signs and told myself that he would never do that. We were also raised in "super-christian" households. It wasn't until years later that I put all the pieces together. I knew it was too late to just up an leave, but the hurt cut deep, it ate at me and resentment built up, which effected nearly every aspect of our marriage.

When I caught him this last time (cheating, getting ready to cheat, whatever), it sent me into anxiety attacks. I have never had one before and it was seriously scary. I spent alot of time thinking about the real issue, my first instinct was that it was about the sex, but that really wasn't it. I told myself that if we stay married, I will have to live with him looking for others (which is how I found myself here :)), I quickly realized that I could live with him having sex with others, but not the lies, that was the deal-breaker. The hurt that hits me when it looks like he is keeping secrets again, is overwhelming, as if I had just discovered his betrayal all over again.

I'm told that the secrets were to just save my feelings, but I say "Bullshit!" The lies were to avoid the fall out of my reaction and therefore avoid the consequenses. I truely don't know what I would have said if he had asked to open our marriage. The first time, probably "No Way", but that was only 6 years into our marriage. However, if he had been serious and had good arguements that didn't put me on the defensive (that's hard for him, even now :(), I might have changed my mind, I tend to be swayed by logic.
 
Wow! This sounds scarily familiar. The first time my husband cheated, I refused to see the signs and told myself that he would never do that. We were also raised in "super-christian" households. It wasn't until years later that I put all the pieces together. I knew it was too late to just up an leave, but the hurt cut deep, it ate at me and resentment built up, which effected nearly every aspect of our marriage.

When I caught him this last time (cheating, getting ready to cheat, whatever), it sent me into anxiety attacks. I have never had one before and it was seriously scary. I spent alot of time thinking about the real issue, my first instinct was that it was about the sex, but that really wasn't it. I told myself that if we stay married, I will have to live with him looking for others (which is how I found myself here :)), I quickly realized that I could live with him having sex with others, but not the lies, that was the deal-breaker. The hurt that hits me when it looks like he is keeping secrets again, is overwhelming, as if I had just discovered his betrayal all over again.

I'm told that the secrets were to just save my feelings, but I say "Bullshit!" The lies were to avoid the fall out of my reaction and therefore avoid the consequenses. I truely don't know what I would have said if he had asked to open our marriage. The first time, probably "No Way", but that was only 6 years into our marriage. However, if he had been serious and had good arguements that didn't put me on the defensive (that's hard for him, even now :(), I might have changed my mind, I tend to be swayed by logic.

I knew, shortly after each affair. I just blinded myself to the possiblity that he would do it *again*, because it was *just wrong*. It took me a LONG time to figure out that the part that was *wrong* for ME was the lying & secrecy, not the sex, like many of my role models indicated.

After a time, I asked him about opening our relationship, because I finally saw that trying to be monogamous and failing was hurting him as much as I experienced catching him... we're not together anymore, but last week when we had coffee together, he mentioned that he was proud of me for continuing to make my own choices rather than to conforming to the "shoulds" of society. What a strange life we lead!
 
RedPep said:
there is a purpose to holding on to anger, hurt and pain over cheating for a time, sometimes always, even just a bit. It protects and keeps a person safe.
Really ? Does it ?
How does feeding negative emotions - giving them power - which DOES affect our daily lives (and health) and interaction help ?
Or is it the lesson we hope we've learned that can protect us from future pain ?
sorry, kinda late chiming in here.

(I will refer to cheating in terms of unknown sexual infidelity that comes from casual sex as well as from emotional infidelity...)

I think that allowing people to stew in their anger is part of grieving and necessary to move on. One can move on from the anger etc. of someone having cheated on them but still rise to anger when they think about the incident... the protection comes in from experiencing it and knowing how to handle it next time.

I don't think anger, hurt and pain are negative.... they are useful in getting us to a place we have never been before and make us realize we need to protect ourselves from that person in case they do it again. The negativity comes in when a person is always angry, always hurt and never trusts anyone again. That person might never do it again, and might even be forgiven, but it still happened and the emotions that come up with that have every right to be their if it helps in keeping a person safe by remembering what it felt like to be cheated on.

Complete trust is just not an option again after cheating I don't think. I wish it were, but I don't think its necessarily wise... at least not for me. That innocent and vulnerable connection is precious and very delicate. I don't believe that innocence is ever achieved again in a relationship where their has been a partner cheating on the other.
 
Complete trust is just not an option again after cheating I don't think. I wish it were, but I don't think its necessarily wise... at least not for me. That innocent and vulnerable connection is precious and very delicate. I don't believe that innocence is ever achieved again in a relationship where their has been a partner cheating on the other

I totally agree with you here RP.

You can't recover loss of innocence or illusions. I think I was alluding to that somewhere. And THAT is part of maturing / living. And I hate it (that loss of innocence). I hate that it can turn us in a general direction of pessimism. But it is what it is. The only thing we can always trust is that when push comes to shove people will "generally" act in their own best interest - not ours. There are fleeting exceptions to that, but if you don't want to be let down/hurt/ etc you're wise to expect it. If it doesn't happen it's like a surprise bonus.
Where we're talking about 'cheating', I feel it's best in any relationship to "expect" a partner to avail themself of an opportunity under the right circumstances. In other words - for that to be the expectation and the 'norm'. Because that's a lot closer to the reality of being human than to 'expect' fidelity.


RP said:
...........I think that allowing people to stew in their anger is part of grieving and necessary to move on. One can move on from the anger etc. of someone having cheated on them but still rise to anger when they think about the incident... the protection comes in from experiencing it and knowing how to handle it next time.

I don't think anger, hurt and pain are negative.... they are useful in getting us to a place we have never been before and make us realize we need to protect ourselves from that person in case they do it again.

The negativity comes in when a person is always angry, always hurt and never trusts anyone again. That person might never do it again, and might even be forgiven, but it still happened and the emotions that come up with that have every right to be their if it helps in keeping a person safe by remembering what it felt like to be cheated on.

.

The anger issue - especially carrying it - is kind of a topic all in itself.
I'd say we'd have to agree to disagree on this.
I don't believe there's literally anything positive about anger - at least more than fleeting - because it is a natural emotion. It's an emotion that can -and does - destroy people and everything else around it.

At the bottom line, anger basically means we don't TRULY UNDERSTAND something. When we do, it just becomes another fact of living that loses it's emotional hold. We tend to put the facts/actions in their proper cubby-hole, are watchful for them in the future. Just integrate them into our filter system.

Anyway - like I say - a topin in itself.

GS
 
"Cheaters" get a horrible rap in our society, and I agree with others here who think there ARE worse things a person could do!

My two youngest daughters are in high school/jr. high, and you should hear the hatred these girls spew out at each other. If nothing else, one thing I've learned -- it starts EARLY, this training, that it is only acceptable to have ONE love interest at a time, even if we're talking puppy love! You better not kiss another boy on the playground; if you have a "boyfriend" you are expected to be "faithful," even as early as the 7th grade!

This is ridiculous to me, but I can hear the echoes of the Puritans in these kids' voices. I am sure they get reinforcement from their parents, as well as songs on the radio about jilted lovers. My youngest daughter instinctively knows this is BS, but she struggles with the slut label already -- at 14 -- because she loves EVERYBODY :) and she is beautiful. My 16-year old is the opposite -- had a boyfriend who "cheated" on her and now she "HATES" him and won't go anywhere near the crowd of friends they used to share, because that cheating jerk might be there. He has even encouraged the other kids to invite her! But to her, "cheating" is a capital crime, even though she has gone on to find a very nice boyfriend with whom she is far more compatible and very happy.

Sorry to go on a rant about my teenagers' love lives :rolleyes: but like I said, this crap starts early on.
 
How DID sex - or even emotional connection get put on a pedastle so far above so many more obviously damaging things.

I don't think trying to deconstruct how some things got put on that pedastle is important really. I think it is more important to make sure whatever partner you choose has the same values as you do around the things that are up on the pedastle. For some it could be any other value such as how to raise children, the environment or faith.

Recognizing what is on the pedastle for each individual and finding a partner who respects those values is the key to avoiding damage.

What is important to you may not be important to others...that doesn't make it wrong. It might just make you incompatible with some people. That's normal. I value lots of stuff that others don't and alternately I don't value a lot of stuff that others do...but that doesn't hold me back or surpress me.
 
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