Cheating, lying, excuses, and getting away with stuff

Sorry if this shifts the topic of the thread too much but I was wondering what people thought about cheating when people are so good at lying and covering their tracks (or you're so bad at espionage) that they never get caught or confess. I have the idea that this may happen a lot more than people think but it also seems like paranoia to think that. Considering that monogamy is so strictly expected in mainstream culture, it just makes sense to me that people naturally develop strategies for cheating and getting away with it. Or do most people just learn to control themselves and get used to monogamy? How would you know, really?
 
Sorry if this shifts the topic of the thread too much but I was wondering what people thought about cheating when people are so good at lying and covering their tracks (or you're so bad at espionage) that they never get caught or confess. I have the idea that this may happen a lot more than people think but it also seems like paranoia to think that. Considering that monogamy is so strictly expected in mainstream culture, it just makes sense to me that people naturally develop strategies for cheating and getting away with it. Or do most people just learn to control themselves and get used to monogamy? How would you know, really?

I would hazard a guess that there are a lot more affairs on the go then we think. People can get very good at them - I was very adept at keeping it a secret. Fake Hotmail accounts, great work cover up stories for being late. You name it, I had it down. The thing was that I became so unhealthy in my relationship that I was looking for a way to get caught doing anything that would promote change I was too cowardly to appraoch head on.

Some people are actually monogamous so there is no need to "control" themsleves. Others are very good at being in control of themselves and simply ignore feelings for people outside there relationship. Discipline is learned and can be done around anything; food, sex and how we express love.
 
Some people are actually monogamous so there is no need to "control" themsleves. Others are very good at being in control of themselves and simply ignore feelings for people outside there relationship. Discipline is learned and can be done around anything; food, sex and how we express love.

I have a hard time believing anyone is 100% monogamous. If they were, how could they break up from one person and start a relationship with someone new? I have heard many people say that when they are in a relationship they're just not interested in anyone else, which I can understand, but that doesn't mean the potential for attraction isn't there. Certainly you can love your partner so much that you wouldn't want to risk losing them by falling for someone else, but that doesn't mean that you're not susceptible to temptation (hence the prayer, "lead us not into temptation"). I think some people are just in denial that they're susceptible to temptation, since everyone is ultimately. What you do with the feelings is another story.
 
people are so good at lying and covering their tracks (or you're so bad at espionage) that they never get caught or confess.

Considering that monogamy is so strictly expected in mainstream culture, it just makes sense to me that people naturally develop strategies for cheating and getting away with it.

Or do most people just learn to control themselves and get used to monogamy? How would you know, really?
I think that we are taught at a very young age to go underground to get our needs met. We want a cookie from the cookie jar, so we sneak one. If parents don't teach children to communicate and ask for what they require; give them the language, then they will learn skills to steel what they need. Its a survival mechanism I think.

This can be re-taught, but it means facing ourselves and our secret desires and needs, our fears too; making oneself vulnerable and being very real. That is hard for most of us to do and makes us not look so great. Its uncomfortable for everyone concerned I think.

Really though, when faced with the option of saving face and losing everything because of cheating or being real, asking for what we need and laying it all out in order to keep what we have; the choice is ours and we tend to end up feeling uncomfortable any way. Not to mention many other feelings (including fear again, which really is the biggest emotion to over come. Embracing fear is our biggest release from everything that hurts us I think).
 
I have a hard time believing anyone is 100% monogamous. If they were, how could they break up from one person and start a relationship with someone new? I have heard many people say that when they are in a relationship they're just not interested in anyone else, which I can understand, but that doesn't mean the potential for attraction isn't there. Certainly you can love your partner so much that you wouldn't want to risk losing them by falling for someone else, but that doesn't mean that you're not susceptible to temptation (hence the prayer, "lead us not into temptation"). I think some people are just in denial that they're susceptible to temptation, since everyone is ultimately. What you do with the feelings is another story.

Depends on how you define monogamy. I define it simply as having a singular intimate/romantic connection at a time. Yes people break up but that happens for many reasons. Sometimes they form a new connection..I did that when I was married. Here is the thing though. When I formed that new connection, I was not connected to anyone at that time. I was still married but I had lost my intimate connection. There was no overlap of romantic love.
In order for me to form a new connection I must first lose any existing one or not have one to begin with. In that sense I claim 100% monogamy. Could someone sweep me off my feet with a new connection? Not unless I have a weak one with my current partner. That is why it is so important to check in with myself. If I fail to realise my connection is lost (which happened in the past with my ex) there is an opportunity for another to form. I'm not poly, I don't have multiple intimate/romantic relationships. One person gets all of me in that sense.
 
Depends on how you define monogamy. I define it simply as having a singular intimate/romantic connection at a time. Yes people break up but that happens for many reasons. Sometimes they form a new connection..I did that when I was married. Here is the thing though. When I formed that new connection, I was not connected to anyone at that time. I was still married but I had lost my intimate connection. There was no overlap of romantic love.
In order for me to form a new connection I must first lose any existing one or not have one to begin with. In that sense I claim 100% monogamy. Could someone sweep me off my feet with a new connection? Not unless I have a weak one with my current partner. That is why it is so important to check in with myself. If I fail to realise my connection is lost (which happened in the past with my ex) there is an opportunity for another to form. I'm not poly, I don't have multiple intimate/romantic relationships. One person gets all of me in that sense.
Ok, so you do see a situation where a couple has lost romantic intensity but are still committed to staying together and making it work as a monogamist's opportunity to shift focus to a new love interest? I would still call that polyamory because if you have strong feelings of wanting to stay committed to your current partner, even if the spark is missing (temporarily or permanently), then that also involves love. Maybe what you mean to say is that you can't focus on feeling in love with more than one person at a time. But surely you could feel butterflies on a date one day and have that feeling subside when the person doesn't return your messages and then meet someone new that gave you similar feelings again? After going through this kind of thing for a while, you could easily bounce from one love-interest to another - assuming you didn't have any faith in the previous one to stick around for another date. I actually find this a little sad to talk about because it sounds like an abundance of love while really it is a lack of relational continuity.
 
Maybe what you mean to say is that you can't focus on feeling in love with more than one person at a time. But surely you could feel butterflies on a date one day and have that feeling subside when the person doesn't return your messages and then meet someone new that gave you similar feelings again? After going through this kind of thing for a while, you could easily bounce from one love-interest to another - assuming you didn't have any faith in the previous one to stick around for another date. .

I just don't feel initmate/romantic love for more than one person at a time period. There are lulls and temporary disconnects and those can be concerning.
As far as butterflies go, of course I could feel those if I wasn't connected to someone and was dating again (I fucking hate dating).

I have never bounced from one love interest to another. I have been in love four times in forty years. I have however used people for sex more times than that. They weren't getting love..they were getting me off.
 
I have a hard time believing anyone is 100% monogamous.

I've met two folks who married their childhood sweetheart, that person died years later, and these folk never had another romance until they died. I can attest to the existence of those two--and I may have met others without knowing it.

I was in my early 20s when I met the first one. I even asked him about whether he had any interest in another woman. He reported that he never had and even then, with his wife gone some 15 years, he just didn't find any other woman interesting.

There was nothing obvious about the histories of these two people, either. I imagine you've met folks who are strictly monogamous and simply have no idea as to whether they are or not. Just because you can't conceive of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
 
There was nothing obvious about the histories of these two people, either. I imagine you've met folks who are strictly monogamous and simply have no idea as to whether they are or not. Just because you can't conceive of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
I can conceive of it, but I want to understand it on a deeper level. I think I can safely assume that all human bodies work in the same basic ways. So if someone is not attractive to anyone besides their partner, the question is what do they do with the information about another person that is potentially appealing to them.
 
I think that we are taught at a very young age to go underground to get our needs met. We want a cookie from the cookie jar, so we sneak one. If parents don't teach children to communicate and ask for what they require; give them the language, then they will learn skills to steel what they need. Its a survival mechanism I think.

It was interesting to read this! I was a really good liar as a kid. I had a very controlling mother, and couldn't do much without lying. It was definitely a survival mechanism. What's interesting is that now that I'm an adult I no longer see any reason to lie. There is no reason to lie in an adult relationship where the other person doesn't (or shouldn't) have such a power on you. I feel that by lying I would actually give somebody power over me.
 
^You're welcome. :) I've thought about this a lot, it is also connected to why I react strongly against being in the closet about anything in my life.
 
It was interesting to read this! I was a really good liar as a kid. I had a very controlling mother, and couldn't do much without lying. It was definitely a survival mechanism. What's interesting is that now that I'm an adult I no longer see any reason to lie. There is no reason to lie in an adult relationship where the other person doesn't (or shouldn't) have such a power on you. I feel that by lying I would actually give somebody power over me.
That's such a good observation. It was hard for me to come to that realization about lying in my life. I assumed that all the power was in lying and getting away with it. There may be power in that but it's funny the way lying or hiding things causes you to have to tiptoe in someone else's shadow, isn't it? It's so liberating to stand up for your truth, isn't it?
 
This is a great conversation : )

I find all of this so interesting to read.

I have a very similar conversation with my friends and my family quite frequently. I don't know anyone who has been in a long term mono relationship which I am defining as (10+ years) that hasn't cheated, or been cheated on. I am sure there are so many reasons why this happens. Most of the time I don't think that it's because the "cheater" is not in love with the other person. I personally just don't think mono is a realistic expectation, and when expectations are unrealistic someone is bound to disapoint. It's sad to me. I have seen a lot of things end based on this and have always wondered what really made it end, the sleeping with and or loving someone else, or the fact that there was dishonesty, could be both to I guess.

The weird thing in all this though is that I would define myself as mono, and define my partner as poly. Intellectually I understand her, I understand how she can love and be intimate with multiple partners, that to me intellectually seems more natural than mono. Her ability to love like that is actually one of the things that I love so much about her.

Except for me I just can't, it doesn't happen like that for me. I try and come up with reasons why, but there are no logical ones. I wasn't raised to believe that you can only be in love with one person at one time. I don't know if unconciously I turn off feelings or emotions. I have friends who I connect with emotionally, but I have no feelings of intamacy for. Maybe its genetic, maybe its conditioning, maybe it's just me, but despite all that intellect would tell me I am just mono : ) . Much like I am gay, I have tried to fight that, I have tried to pretend that wasn't how I was feeling, but at the end of the day it is what it is, and I am happy with it.
 
I can conceive of it, but I want to understand it on a deeper level. I think I can safely assume that all human bodies work in the same basic ways. So if someone is not attractive to anyone besides their partner, the question is what do they do with the information about another person that is potentially appealing to them.

I think there is more variety in people than you think. Some people are straight, some people are gay. Then, you might say, the two are still the same in that they're attracted to one sex and not the other. Oh, yes, but there is also bisexuality and pansexuality.

But all these people are attracted to something, right? Well, there is asexuality. But asexuals are still romantically attracted to people, right? Well, not aromantic ones (not that you need to be asexual to be aromantic, either, by the way. There are even cases of people whose sexual attraction and romantic attraction are opposite, for instance only attracted to males but only fall in love with females).

We now know of all these variations. Why not others? Monogamy vs non-monogamy, and within each, subcategories. In monogamy, lifelong monogamy, either romantic (one love ever) or sexual (one sexual attraction ever) or serial monogamy (one person at a time, but more than one over a lifetime, after one another).
Within non-monogamy, you have sexual non-monogamies, romantic non-monogamies, and some that are both.

People obviously do NOT all work the same way. Emotionally we're different from one another. Hormonally we're different from one another. The more you try to find something common to everyone, the more you find exceptions to that.

Lifelong monogamy is certainly not the rule. Even when divorce didn't happen, for instance, people would remarry after the death of a spouse and it was perfectly accepted that they might love the new person.
Although some people do struggle with the concept that it's alright to be in love again when the person you love died, as opposed to the relationship ending in a different one. I don't mean that these people are lifelong monoamorous, I mean that they fall in love again, and feel that it's "wrong" because if their spouse hadn't died, they'd still be there.

Anyway, I'm starting to go off on a rant. My point is that it's often easy to think that everyone works the way you do. I've seen people who claim that everyone is bisexual, just to various degrees, but some people are actually completely one way or the other (and of course asexuals aren't bisexual either). Similarly, some poly people like to claim that poly is the natural state and conventions are the only reason some people are mono.
It's tempting to think that because you had such a revelation (OMG! Poly exists! It all makes so much sense now!) you should share it with everyone because surely it will change their lives too. But no, some people ARE monogamous, lifelong or not. When something seems so obvious about yourself, it's tempting to think it's the way everyone works, but you need to really trust others who tell you they're different, and not assume they're lying or mistaken.

There is a lot of variety in this world, even just about romantic and sexual relations to others.
 
Or do most people just learn to control themselves and get used to monogamy?

I have a hard time believing anyone is 100% monogamous. If they were, how could they break up from one person and start a relationship with someone new? I have heard many people say that when they are in a relationship they're just not interested in anyone else, which I can understand, but that doesn't mean the potential for attraction isn't there. Certainly you can love your partner so much that you wouldn't want to risk losing them by falling for someone else, but that doesn't mean that you're not susceptible to temptation (hence the prayer, "lead us not into temptation"). I think some people are just in denial that they're susceptible to temptation, since everyone is ultimately. What you do with the feelings is another story.

I don't know anyone who has been in a long term mono relationship which I am defining as (10+ years) that hasn't cheated, or been cheated on.

I was married for 11+ years before my husband asked to separate. There was no cheating ever, by either of us, in all that time. This I know without a doubt. When he first told me he wanted a divorce, I'll admit, I was floored and searched for some excuse. I asked him if he had ever cheated, and cited numerous trips he had taken for work as potential situations for him to do that. He said to me, "What about you? When you went to Europe with your school? Did you cheat on me?" I said, "No!" He asked me, "Why not?" And I told him, "It just never occurred to me to do that." And he said, "Well, it's the same for me. It never occurred to me. I'm married to you."

We have both had friendships with people of the opposite sex (we're both straight), and acknowledged attractions, but these were not attractions we'd ever want to act on -- they were more like, "Oh, wow, that waitress is gorgeous" or my undying crush on Kevin Sorbo. But honestly and truly, we didn't have to fight anything to be faithful. We made room for naturally finding other people attractive physically/intellectually, etc., but just knew that those attractive people were simply friends or acquaintances, not a possible reason to cheat (I can't even wrap my head around this type of thinking!!!). We did not struggle with this. I trusted him; he trusted me. I would never have done anything to violate that trust. I made a promise and it was easy to keep because I loved him. If we knew that someone was angling for one of us, we automatically distanced ourselves from that person. That didn't mean I couldn't look at a hot guy or enjoy someone's sexual energy. Human beings naturally feel attractions for many reasons -- we don't automatically equate an attraction with jumping their bones. Sometimes, I walk down the street and feel a pull toward someone, and just get a sense we could be friends. That's an attraction.

I can appreciate someone's beauty and enjoy a sexual charge without feeling the need for something to happen between us. Sexual energy is like electricity. It's there in all of us, and palpably obvious sometimes -- big deal. We're sexual animals. It doesn't mean, for me, that I need an awful lot of willpower to avoid it. I was committed to the man I loved - end of story. Being loyal was never a challenge for me. Attractions and sexual tension ebbs and flows in normal human beings, and when you are monogamous and believe in your commitment and the vows you made, all that doesn't get denied, but rather, becomes like the wallpaper. Just there and a part of life. The attractions my husband and I felt for anyone, and any person we felt close to or drawn to, were not temptations to avoid. They were people we liked - that is all. We simply felt that we loved each other and that was that, there was no danger of falling for anyone else. That possibility was never even remotely a part of our realities.

Our marriage fell apart for other reasons, which I won't go into. It was only after I looked around and realized I was now alone and could create a life the way I alone wanted it, that I started exploring polyamory. I had heard of it from an acquaintance and it was interesting to me, but not something I'd ever wanted to pursue while married. Now that I am single again, sexual attractions are a whole different ballgame than they were when I was married, because now I have the option to pursue.

Personally, I don't think of monogamy or polyamory as something that a person is, like a sexual orientation. To me, it's nothing more than a system of relating. I don't think people are mono or poly, I just think people are people who make choices about how they want to live based on their experiences and/or belief systems. For now, I want polyamorous relationships in my life. I can foresee living polyamorously for approximately the next five years or so. After that, I don't know what I'll want. I could definitely get on board with monogamy again -- but I'm not choosing to do that yet. As far as cheating goes, I choose not to, so it's a no-brainer; I just don't, and it's not a temptation.
 
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Personally, I don't think of monogamy or polyamory as something that a person is, like a sexual orientation. To me, it's nothing more than a system of relating. I don't think people are mono or poly, I just think people are people who make choices about how they want to live based on their experiences and/or belief systems. For now, I want polyamorous relationships in my life. I can foresee living polyamorously for approximately the next five years or so. After that, I don't know what I'll want. I could definitely get on board with monogamy again -- but I'm not choosing to do that yet. As far as cheating goes, I choose not to, so it's a no-brainer; I just don't, and it's not a temptation.

This is why I think the assertion above by serialmonogamiest that we're all human and our bodies work the same is just not true (including all the resaons already listed by Tonberry). As a species, we aren't slaves to instinct. For me, polyamory is more like my sexual orientation -- both are systems of relating/desiring. For me living monogamously would have to be a choice, just as some gay folks choose to live straight lives--both would be tough. For that reason, I also truly believe some folks are truly monogamous and although their actions might be different (as in the scenarios above), it's not what they really desire. My ex finally decided being mono was what made her happy and I believe her when she says that.

For me, lying and cheating are related, but separate things. Cheating involves a betrayal or violation of trust. If it happens once and is discussed, that doesn't make it okay, but it's not as bad as if it's an ongoing process coupled with lying. That takes what might be a "mistake" and moves it to the realm of calculating behavior and screwed up power relations. I'm sure many folks feel differently about these things, but I guess that's how I've always seen it. I've made mistakes, but have never lied about them. I couldn't live like that.
 
Personally, I don't think of monogamy or polyamory as something that a person is, like a sexual orientation. To me, it's nothing more than a system of relating. I don't think people are mono or poly, I just think people are people who make choices about how they want to live based on their experiences and/or belief systems. For now, I want polyamorous relationships in my life. I can foresee living polyamorously for approximately the next five years or so. After that, I don't know what I'll want. I could definitely get on board with monogamy again -- but I'm not choosing to do that yet. As far as cheating goes, I choose not to, so it's a no-brainer; I just don't, and it's not a temptation.
Well put. Labels that essentialize people are misleading.

This is why I think the assertion above by serialmonogamiest that we're all human and our bodies work the same is just not true (including all the resaons already listed by Tonberry). As a species, we aren't slaves to instinct.
You say you disagree with me but you're saying what I'm saying when you describe humans in terms of species behavior. The point is that we all have basically the same instincts and we all have the ability to resist them to varying degrees. We also have the ability to deny feelings and thoughts but that doesn't make them go away. I think when people deny that they have the capacity to love multiple people or that they experience lust beyond their monogamous partner, it is to provide emotional security to that partner. Somehow it is hurtful to saddle your (monogamous) partner with the information that you felt attracted to someone else or that you could have a relationship with someone else and still love them.

It would get very confusing for many monogamous people, I think, if they had to think about what it means to love someone enough to allow them to love other people as well. Doesn't it also confuse polyamorous people to know how to balance loving someone with making them share you? I would feel guilty being in a relationship with a devoted monogamous partner and having them tell me they love me enough to let me see other people while waiting patiently and not seeing anyone else themselves. Nevertheless I don't think anyone is truly incapable of polyamory. I just think they avoid acting on it because they figure the benefits of it wouldn't be worth the costs. But how can you accept the gift of monogamous devotion from someone else without loving them enough to want to return it? (sorry if that question sounds emotionally blackmailing. it's not meant that way - just something I've thought about)
 
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