Anti-Poly Counselor

JadeDoor

New member
I've been seeing the same counselor for about five years now. I love her. She really challenges my view points on things and doesn't just sit back and listen for an hour. I walk out feeling refreshed and sometimes I have "homework" to work on. I love it.

Anyway, she is very anti poly. She says she has never once seen it work and that it often destroys lives. I'm not sure what to say to that. Yes, my marriage ended, but not because of poly. Because he was physically and emotionally abusive of me and was not the right person to be involved in polyamory (or any relationship) with.

I don't want to have to find a new counselor, but I worry that her view points may cloud her ability to help me with other issues.

Thoughts?
 
I've often thought of these types of problems. I don't have any personal experience to share, just a few thoughts. Well, I have seen counselors and therapists, but not about poly. :p

She says she has never once seen it work and that it often destroys lives.

Dan Savage once said that he's never been invited to a 5 year poly anniversary and "good f***ing luck to you if you make it work," so your counselor is not alone in her opinion.

HOWEVER, I would like to point out that personal ignorance does not mean universal truth! Just because she has not done her research or homework doesn't mean she is right! Perhaps you can go with some ammunition!

Secondly, I disagree that "poly destroys lives" - to me that sounds like she is projecting her mono-normative values and making a baseless assertion. As you pointed out, there are many people who are unfit for any relationship let alone a poly relationship!

Again, she's not completely alone in her opinion. I've read many blogs and things written by people who felt like polyamory destroyed their marriage. Just do a quick Google search of "polyamory destroyed my marriage" and you'll see there is no shortage of anecdotes.

My personal theory is that if something outside of a marriage could 'destroy' it, then the marriage was probably doomed to begin with. In some cases, one partner wants to explore polyamory and goes wild, leaving the monogamous partner feeling abandoned and neglected. That is the fault of an irresponsible partner, not polyamory!

But then look at the other side. There's plenty of evidence and talk that polyamory and non-monogamy are really legit and healthy.

Anyways, since you like your counselor so much, have you considered asking her to read up on the subject? You could even bring her a magazine or a print-out. Or email her a link. I would make it clear that you really value her insight and that you would like her to become more familiar with your lifestyle.
 
I've been seeing the same counselor for about five years now. I love her. She really challenges my view points on things and doesn't just sit back and listen for an hour. I walk out feeling refreshed and sometimes I have "homework" to work on. I love it.

Anyway, she is very anti poly. She says she has never once seen it work and that it often destroys lives. I'm not sure what to say to that. Yes, my marriage ended, but not because of poly. Because he was physically and emotionally abusive of me and was not the right person to be involved in polyamory (or any relationship) with.

I don't want to have to find a new counselor, but I worry that her view points may cloud her ability to help me with other issues.

Thoughts?

It's unlikely that she would ever see people in a successful poly relationship because they would not seek her out, just as successful mono couples do not. So of course she has never seen poly work. And unlike mono couples, poly people are often closeted, so another avenue to know successful poly people is barred. Therefore her view is skewed. Perhaps, she would consider doing actual research to better educate herself?
 
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Dan Savage once said that he's never been invited to a 5 year poly anniversary and "good f***ing luck to you if you make it work," so your counselor is not alone in her opinion.

Let's list out some of the problems with Mr Savages "point" here. In no particular order:

1. Longevity is not the benchmark of a healthy relationship. Longevity is the benchmark of lifelong associations. To say that poly doesn't work because poly relationships are not as long as monogamous relationships is faulty logic - even if it were true.

2. His sample size is either miniscule or manicured. I personally know two poly groups who have been together for more than 5 years and are fully functional happy people. For a famous relationship personality like Savage to say that he's never seen it either means that he ignores reality or that... well my guess is he's just ignoring reality because it gets in the way of his being "right"

3. It's a self-fulfilling social stigma. Monogamy arrangements have a chance because there is firm social tradition in the US which encourages it, nourishes it, makes excuses for it, ignores the facts for it, and represses all other forms of relating. If Savages statement were any representation of reality (it isn't) he would really only have himself to blame for continually applying negative pressure to poly.

Look at this therapist as a fine example of the stigma. This educated person who should have some kind of insight about how people work is really just a monogamy Juggernaut and further making sure that monogamy has support and poly does not. If poly arrangements were to struggle more than mono arrangements would it really be a shock to anyone? Would it really be the simple assertion that "poly can't work"? Or could it be that surviving alone, on an island, in a mono-only society is more difficult than just giving in and practicing monogamy?
 
And what is a "Poly anniversary"?

Our relationships are separate from my POV - if I'm together with my partner for 5 years, is that not an anniversary outside of his other relationships? Does it have to involve multiple people for it to count?

Dan Savage wouldn't be invited to ours because there won't ever be a "we've all been together this long" party. Well, that and we don't know the man. :p
 
I'm going to guess Dan Savage's point is that very few secondary/outside relationships in poly hit the five year mark. I've read repeatedly that most of them don't last beyond about 2-1/2 years.
 
In no way was I meaning to imply that I was on board with what Dan Savage said in this video.

As Marcus points out, he's really not coming from the right angle.

My point was, however, that even outspoken advocates who you'd think would be defensive of poly are still critical. Even a progressive, socially liberal counselor could fall victim to that skepticism that Dan Savage espouses. It's an uphill battle to gain any sort of social acceptance.

Mostly, I think the public perception is that this is a trendy new 'thing'. I know a lot of young people (teenagers) that are keen to try it out and take it up, and of course they are making glorious fools of themselves. But at least they are trying.
 
The way I see it, if you have a good relationship with your therapist otherwise, than just don't talk about poly right now. Work on your other issues. Good therapists are hard to come by. When you're at a point where you think you may be able to start dating again, then find a poly therapist. . . I have a friend who sees one therapist for herself and a different therapist with her boyfriend (who is open relationship friendly). This way their individual therapists can't take sides.
 
This reminds me of critics who claim they can't believe in evolution because they can't see it happening.

To be fair, too, you can probably also claim, in her line of work, that monogamy doesn't work either. What are the odds she has seen or know of a lifelong marriage?

http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p70-125.pdf

Only about 50% have hit 40 years.
(Tables 4, 4a, 4b)
Even worse, the rate of marriages hitting 10 years fell from over 80% to under 80% in the last 50 years, attributed to ease of divorce and changing social norms. The good news is that the rates are going up again, since 1975.

So the point is, really, selection bias. Her livelihood is dominated by failures, not successes, and the more people involved in any endeavor, the more points of failure there is. That's how hardware works; moving parts are failing parts, and the more moving parts, the more failing parts.
 
So the point is, really, selection bias. Her livelihood is dominated by failures, not successes, and the more people involved in any endeavor, the more points of failure there is. That's how hardware works; moving parts are failing parts, and the more moving parts, the more failing parts.

That's a really good point. Healthy, happy, untroubled individuals are less likely to go see a counselor. Furthermore, poly people may be more likely to hide their lifestyle from counselors and seek support elsewhere. I wonder if this counselor HAS actually unknowingly helped poly people?
 
That's a really good point. Healthy, happy, untroubled individuals are less likely to go see a counselor. Furthermore, poly people may be more likely to hide their lifestyle from counselors and seek support elsewhere. I wonder if this counselor HAS actually unknowingly helped poly people?

Two points I see here...

1. Like you said, people seeing a marriage counselor are usually struggling in their relationship and communication. In these situations alternative lifestyles like swinging and poly are a last resort attempt and usually it's one person who really wants it and the other that gives in, but in the end that's a recipe for disaster. Could it be that a relationship between someone who finds out they are non monogamous, and someone that has no desire to be non monogamous is like a partner who admits they are gay. Not exactly great for a lasting relationship. I wonder what statistics would say for marriages that started out being non monogamist in nature so the two were equally yolked to begin with

2. Could it be that societal norms can be difficult for any couple to withstand? I mean if you are born and raised for 30 years thinking this is wrong then even if you open up to it then you have a difficult battle ahead if overcoming all your trained emotions about jealousy and such.
 
In no way was I meaning to imply that I was on board with what Dan Savage said in this video.

I didn't get the impression you were using his statement to represent your own views. Dan Savage seems to believe that monogamy is the only path - he merely things a marginally more flexible approach would be better.

If he didn't speak out specifically against polyamory I wouldn't have any opinion about him at all. As it is, he will continue to repress polyamory until he either stops being ignorant or shuts his mouth about it.

Like you said, people seeing a marriage counselor are usually struggling in their relationship and communication. In these situations alternative lifestyles like swinging and poly are a last resort attempt and usually it's one person who really wants it and the other that gives in, but in the end that's a recipe for disaster. Could it be that a relationship between someone who finds out they are non monogamous, and someone that has no desire to be non monogamous is like a partner who admits they are gay. Not exactly great for a lasting relationship.

That's a relevant addition to the broken logic of "professionals" coming to the irrational conclusion that poly relationships can't work due to some elusive fundamental flaw. While I cringe at comparing it to sexual orientation, the heart of your point still stands.

If these boards and the prolific stigma about the catastrophic impact of being non-monogamous have a story to tell, that story is that a notable percentage of people who crash and burn "because they tried poly" were couples in which there was cheating and at least one person in the pair justified it by using terms like "open" or "poly". It would also help explain the nature of these "professionals" and personalities being certain of this outcome because people coming from traditional relationships traversing into dangerous new territory would be more likely to rely on more traditionally acceptable sources of repair; monogamy juggernauts.

I wonder what statistics would say for marriages that started out being non monogamist in nature so the two were equally yolked to begin with

Indeed, I expect that survey would look quite a bit different.
 
The way I see it, if you have a good relationship with your therapist otherwise, than just don't talk about poly right now. Work on your other issues. Good therapists are hard to come by.

Good therapists should be bronzed and put in a hall of fame somewhere. All but exactly one of my experiences with therapists have been hilariously bad. They take sides, coddle patients, promote their personal agenda, etc - just like everyone else. In the rare moment that you should find a therapist who breaks this mold, I agree, they should be held onto.

However, if I meet a therapist who displays clear bias against a fundamental aspect of my worldview I am immediately skeptical. This is an example of a therapist who is promoting their personal agenda and working within the confines of their own social fears. Someone who tells me "no, that's just wrong because it can't work" without anything to back it up... is just another nut to be ignored.

I would say, start looking for another therapist immediately and don't assume your first 20 tries will yield a positive result. Finding a therapist who is worth a shit is profoundly more difficult than people imagine... but success makes the journey worthwhile.
 
Two points I see here...

1. Like you said, people seeing a marriage counselor are usually struggling in their relationship and communication. In these situations alternative lifestyles like swinging and poly are a last resort attempt and usually it's one person who really wants it and the other that gives in, but in the end that's a recipe for disaster. Could it be that a relationship between someone who finds out they are non monogamous, and someone that has no desire to be non monogamous is like a partner who admits they are gay. Not exactly great for a lasting relationship. I wonder what statistics would say for marriages that started out being non monogamist in nature so the two were equally yolked to begin with

I do believe that is an important factor. Many of the things I've read by people who were angry about poly had tried opening up at the behest of one partner but not the other. All of my present and future relationships will have started with the idea of poly first.

2. Could it be that societal norms can be difficult for any couple to withstand? I mean if you are born and raised for 30 years thinking this is wrong then even if you open up to it then you have a difficult battle ahead if overcoming all your trained emotions about jealousy and such.

I think this is also true. I've noticed that many polyamorous people older than myself start from a monogamous mindset and sort of wrap polyamorous ideas around it. Whereas those starting out as polyamorous before marriage have embraced some different paradigms. One generation after another will develop the ideas and paradigms of polyamory.
 
Thanks for all your thoughts, everyone.

I am going to stick with her for now. She challenges me and I like that. I am going through a lot right now (divorce, custody of my son, seeing my ex move on with his first wife who has always coveted my life and my child) and switching up counselors doesn't seem the way to go.

I have no relationships in my life right now and am fine with that while I focus on my son. So it's a non issue for now.

This counselor has worked with my soon to be ex and I as well and knows us both well. If there are any legal issues that she would need to be called for, I would like to still be her patient as well. What she would say about my husband would be VERY helpful in court, to say the least.
 
Woo-hoo! We've passed the 2.5 year mark...will be three years in April for my "official" anniversary with Dude. (With each year getting better and better :D).

I've tried therapy twice - the first time the guy was hung up on me being bisexual (which, in my opinion, was NOT the issue) and thought that I had to "choose" (20+ years later and I'm still comfortable being Bi).

The second guy was surprised, but not negative, about my bi-poly life (this was before Dude) - which had nothing to do with why I was seeing him. If I felt the need for therapy again I would certainly go back...

If you are getting benefit from your interactions with your therapist, then by all means continue! If your issues are not poly related, and they are willing to shelve that for the time being, I don't see that there is a problem.

JaneQ
 
It isn't like youve demonstrated healthy poly relationships and she is still slating poly. You've shown her another example of inconsiderate behaviour, poor decision making and warped priorities. She's probably right
 
long term

we have been in a successful poly quad now for over almost 6 years, and it shows no signs of it ending anytime soon. We have grown together so much the 4 of us.
 
GalaGirl has a useful link in her blog here to a professional document - by therapists, for therapists - about what therapists and similar professionals need to know about poly. It might be useful to pass on to your therapist.

But I generally agree - if you are otherwise happy with her, and this one thing she's not good on is manageable for you, then there is no reason to move on to another therapist.
 
It isn't like youve demonstrated healthy poly relationships and she is still slating poly. You've shown her another example of inconsiderate behaviour, poor decision making and warped priorities. She's probably right

well yes, being physically abused by my husband wasn't in the plans. I don't think that means anything about me personally.
 
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