How about a visual aid all can look at?
http://www.intrapsychictaxonomy.org/sternberg.htm
And some expanded definitions of those things?
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/psy457_lamyiu/sternberg_s_theory_of_love
Then y'all can just read and point on the circles to determine the (X, Y, but not Z) for each person at this point in time and what they are ok with it becoming in future for each mini-couple within the larger three people thing. See what lines up and what does not in terms of love share and sex share.
"There are places where the waves add up -- constructive interference.
Off to one side you see you get destructive interference. The waves are out of phase there, they cancel out. Destructive interference. "
"We can change the frequency - which in turn means changing the wave length."
"If we increase the frequency, the lines of interference lines get closer together. We can't go too high, because we burn the motor out."
I feel this whole ideal of "equality" is just another way of making poly "shinier" than anything else. It's the wrong word and it gives a wrong impression!
I think people sometimes trip up on the words "fair" and "equal." Every time this comes up, I think of this picture:
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/50/90/7f/50907fae894d4b2f548c6fe3e6ccc62e.jpg
The people in that 2nd picture are treated fairly -- they all can see the ball game. They are not treated equally -- not all of them needs a box to stand on to see over the fence.
Sometimes arrangements can be both "fair and equal" for the participants "at this time." They are ok with it and it meets their needs that way for now.
Sometimes arrangements can be "fair but not equal" for the participants "at this time." They are ok with it and it meets their needs that way for now.
Time can change a situation. It is up to the participants to sort all that out as they go along over time. I would not give the key to my house to someone I just started dating, but an older established dating partner might have it already. Why? Because over time they may have earned that privilege with me. It isn't that the new person cannot earn it too... over TIME.
Time can change a situation in other ways. Maybe someone's mother died -- time management changes. Maybe someone is taking a college class this term. Things change yet again. It is up to the participants to sort all that out as they go along over time.
I may care for the happiness of my partner, but if mine is also to be equally as important and I foresee a situation like the above, I would be really freaking crazy to put my couple at risk by accepting that my partner should have an "equal" partnership to ours with another person.
it only makes sense to split equally once the new relationship has had time to mature.
If you have a natural preference for a primary-secondary model to start and change co-primary or something else later? Just say so up front to all. You are allowed to have a preference. You are allowed to have personal boundaries. You are responsible for knowing and stating you wants, needs, hard limits, soft limits so other people can know what those might be.
Before going there with these people? You could also agree on how to break up, if a break up has to happen for some unforeseen reason. Even down to everyone single again! Then everyone is entering into relationship with eyes wide open. They know the deal breakers. They know what to expect in the event of a break up.
Otherwise, could not go there with those people who do NOT agree. Keeps things simpler on you.
Galagirl
I am sorry you struggle.
You could repeat back what you hear him say. And ask him if he means X. Get some clarification.
But in general you sound like you tried to give opportunity to talk. He does not want to. So... Could tell him if he changes his mind, you are willing if he wants to make a talking date for later. Then go to bf house as current agreements stand.
You cannot be a mind reader. And if how he communicates does not serve him well, he could learn another way to communicate his wants/needs/limits so he can be better understood by other people. You cannot do his communicating for him.
Believe him at face value:
He says he doesn't care that I am seeing my bf mebbe tonight or tomorrow night
I know you do not think that is the truth, but rather than trying to mind reader him? Could let him own it. Take it at face value and later if that was not it? Who is responsible for speaking his truth? Him.
It simply might take a few cases of "being taken at my word" and dealing within the consequences to get him to start saying what he means and mean what he says in the first place.
Could weather that out and see if he can take personal responsibility for his communication.
Galagirl
INTERPERSONAL ETHICS FOR INDIVIDUALS
- Address issue(s) right away so they do not continue to build and result in problems in other areas.
- Issues between two people should be handled directly and privately first and not in group. (aka: sucking others into the drama-fest)
- Trust in the process that addressing conflict can result in strengthening relationships. (And agree on conflict resolution method.)
- Be willing to address conflict even though it is difficult.
- Identify a mutually agreed upon time and place to meet.
- Find a private setting that is not likely to be interrupted.
- Offer and receive feedback from a professional/situational perspective to avoid making the conversation personal.
- Express oneself genuinely.
- Allow others to finish before speaking.
- Stay on track with the issue at hand and do not sidetrack into other issues.
- Focus on behaviors and concrete situations.
- Avoid terms such as “always” or “never.”
- Be respectful of others’ ideas and opinions even though we may not agree with them.
- Be willing to be vulnerable and accept feedback about our behavior.
- Be willing to examine “what’s me?” and “what’s you?”
- Recognize the way we impact others even if it does not match our intent.
- Ask directly about others’ intent rather than making assumptions.
- Make requests rather than demands.
- Have ideas about how to make things better or move forward rather than offering criticism and remaining stuck.
- Be responsible and accountable for the changes you agree to make.
- Set a time to check in to see how the agreed upon change(s) are or are not working.
- Agree to re-negotiate a solution.
- Speak for yourself (“I statements”) and your experience and avoid representing the perspectives of others; avoid stating that “others share my concern” as it creates paranoia and mistrust.
- Invite a third party like a counselor to consult or facilitate if required.
INTERPERSONAL ETHICS FOR GROUPS

- Commitment that all persons will communicate in a way so that everyone can be a part of the conversation and this is seen as a priority. (Avoids triangulation, exclusion, people not having a voice in things that affect them)
- Let go of the way things used to be and look for solutions to make things better.
- Take responsibility for oneself to actively care about colleagues regardless of what is interpreted as their own agendas.
- Desire to share perspectives about other areas of practice without feeling like those in that area of practice will be resentful.
- Notify people ahead of time if difficult issues will be discussed; time is needed to prepare thoughts. (No "bombs from the sky")
- Engage in small group discussions that lead to larger group sharing so opportunities exist to know others on a more personal level.
- Everyone in the room needs an equal voice no matter what role they play.
- Focus on what we have in common rather than what is different between us
- Avoid “us versus them” perspective
- Regulate the flow of conversation so the same people are not the only ones talking and being heard.
- Allow people to comment once on an issue so a few people are not monopolizing.
- Allow time for those who take longer to process to have time to speak.
- Recognize when people hold up their hand for a turn to talk.
[*]Everyone has the right to remain silent if needed.- If a comment is made in meeting and others disagree, the disagreement needs to be stated directly to the person in the meeting or after; fear that others will talk about you behind your back makes it feel unsafe.
- Leave the debate in the room when it is over and pick it up next time. (some problems are not solved in one sitting)
- Express thoughts and feelings without fear of criticism.
- Speak honestly without fear of either direct or indirect punishment.
- Speak honestly without fear of being "told on"
- Need to be acknowledged for our input, especially when we take risks to share honestly.
- If we address an issue, it does not get to be brought up and re-hashed over and over again.
Personal Boundary -- guidelines, rules or limits that you create to identify to yourself what are reasonable, safe and permissible ways for other people to behave around you and how YOU will respond when someone crosses the line. (Ex: People cannot stand in my body space when talking to me. I will take a step back if they get too close. I will speak up if they do it again. I will tell them to please step back and please be aware they are crowding me.)When I talk about how I feel, what I am able to live with, it's a boundary...when I blame or try to change someone else's behavior, it becomes a rule?
Rule (noun) -- an statement for expectation of behavior that the people it affects have come up with together and/or agree to abide by because it makes reasonable sense for all. (ex: We all agree to pee and poop in the toilet, not wherever on the floors, beds, and sofas in order to maintain cleanliness. We all agree to close the door when we come in so the cat doesn't run out. We all agree to practice safer sex like using condoms and get regular sex health labs.)
Rule (verb) -- You are the Queen/Dictator person and you rule your subjects. They have no voice in what happens to them. You are the ruler. You rule.
I think green is ok in polyshipping. Everyone is allowed their personal boundaries. You can try to change someone's behavior by ASKING if they are willing/not willing to do something. Like abide by certain agreements for getting along ok together. People are free to ask you things too. Everyone is free to say yes or no.
I think red is not ok. It is not ok for anyone to DEMAND or TELL you what to do. It is not ok for you to do that to others.
Be aware there are some people in this world who do NOT like to practice self control. When asked to do so, they will accuse you of trying to control them. When you are simply ASKING. They might yell, act out, try to cow you from ever asking them again to control themselves or make a decision that requires them to be personally accountable.
I have a relative like that. The simplest way I deal with that type? Be flat, not react. Repeat the question:
"I am not trying to control you. I am asking you if you are willing or not willing to do X. You are the still the boss of you. I just want to know what your answer is. What is your answer?"
If he hems and haws? I go "Ok, I'm not hearing "yes I am willing" so I will just take it as a no. Thank you."
Then I move on with my life. It doesn't revolve around his even if he'd like it to.
The Dream:
He and I were in a hotel and Friend wanted to come too. Friend was asking to split the room. We agreed. So we go to this hotel for whatever reason. (Vacation? Conference?)
Spouse figured she and I could take the bed to be comfortable and he'd sleep on the floor. But when Friend came in the room and lay down with him and started cuddling/snuggling.
So he says to me "Galagirl, Friend is down here cuddling and snuggling."
I peer over the side of the bed and go "That's nice. Enjoy! I'm kinda tired right now but maybe I'll join you guys later" and I crawl back up to the top of the bed and go to sleep.
I am going to assume that at this point in time you are on board. You are willing to go there. That this is about becoming more ABLE in skills to pull it off.
(If you are not actually willing to polyship? You are going against your grain? Not really into it? COULD STOP PARTICIPATING IN THIS. SAY NO. )
I am sorry you struggle. I am not surprised you feel confused though. Mixed messages like this do not contribute to "stability" for you:
"She also told me that If I was really adamant about them not being together she wouldn't have given up her marriage over this and they would have ended it"
So one the one hand, this is her making deliberate, conscious choices so you can feel emotionally safe with her as the new hinge. (But how "adamant" do you have to be in voicing concerns before she hears you over her own desires? SCREAMING? How safe can you feel with a hinge like that? "I would have stopped if you REALLY were hurting lots, but if you only hurt a little I'll just ignore it?)
"It also hurts when she tells me the story about them having feelings for each other and they tried to resist it, but couldn't and realized this was the only for things to work."
On the other hand, nobody is in charge of themselves. Some "destiny" thing is going on. She is not choosing deliberately or consciously. So you can feel emotionally unsafe with her as the new hinge. (And things to work for WHO? Just them? Are you not being considered?)
My head would be going "Huh? Say what?!" with that weird kind of communication.
It might feel cozy to her to tell all this gushing stuff with you, but you probably do not love hearing things that imply "nobody is in charge here!" or "my hinge is not solid!" You could ask her if she is aware of how that de-stabilizing that sounds to you.
To be honest, to me she sounds NRE la-las. Which is a reason, but not excuse for poor behavior.
You sound at risk for entering poly hell or already in it.
You are allowed to say "Look, I would like to get to the point where we can share X amount freely. But at this time in order to feel stable during changes? I would like to start with sharing less and ramping it up over the next few months. Going from 0 news coming down that pipeline to 100% blast coming down that pipeline is not giving me time to adjust. You are giving me more info than I can digest at one time. Could you be willing to talk to me about information management?"
Then talk about HOW that information management will look like at this time, and how it looks later. Divide the "NEED to know now" from "WANT to know eventually."
- The stuff you NEED to know now is safer sex practices, calendars -- the stuff that directly can affect you in daily/weekly living. That comes first.
- The stuff you might WANT to know eventually? Like details or stories -- that's not critical to know right this minute. It can wait till later and come online more slowly. Include him in the conversations. What stuff can "cross over" and what stuff "stops at the hinge."
Hearing details does not seem to bring on an idea of "stable" for you -- which I think you might want more of at this time. There's a certain amount of weird because the "old normal" is not it any more and the "new normal" isn't firmly established yet.
But hinge wife adding to the wobble by overloading you with data? That's not especially kind behavior out of a hinge. Her pleasure in TELLING doesn't override your need to HEAR at a pace you can deal in.
You could suggest she keep a journal. Tell you whatever in it, and then you could read it when you are ready to take new data on board. That way she gets to tell all she wants, but you can postpone hearing it til you are on surer footing. Less... "whooshy" stuff.
You are all on dealing with stages of change. Only they are on track A and you are on track B. For them it's positive change -- they are on this new exploring thing. Loss of stability is compensated by that exploring thing.
For you it is negative change -- you have lost stability. Compensation is what? Dealing with whooshy gushy stuff from wife?
They also have had more time than you to playground the "them as a couple" and what a "V" might be like than you have.
It is challenging, but it doesn't have to be doom. You guys can get through transitional time ok if you pace yourselves and respect that each person is at a different point in their process. As the hinge she will deal in things the V-arm people will not. And vice-versa.
You? You could get ok asking her to dial the la-las down a little bit around you for the first few months to let you get your bearings. Not overload you with data. That doesn't mean you don't wish her and him well on that side of the V. It just means YOU need some digestion time/space for yourself.
Sloppy hinge leaking data all over the place -- that can get off putting. She might mean well in wanting to be full transparent, not hide anything, and be totally honest. But honesty can come with a modicum of tact. "Whooshy" stuff isn't cool.
Talk and get clear on what "new normal" you guys are trying to aim for. Make sure all three agree that's the goal.
Talk and get clear on what is TMI right now, and what is just right, and how "ramping it up" can look for you guys over time.
Talking about jealousy management might help too.
http://www.kathylabriola.com/articl...nster-managing-jealousy-in-open-relationships
http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Jealousy_Updated_10-6-10.pdf
You might want to look at the worksheets here to help with the sex conversation too.
http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/
Hang in there!
Galagirl
I don't mind WHAT he does with Other Lover so long as it is consensual and safe. What would bug me more is WHO Other Lover is. Or rather, what kind of character they possess.
I prefer people of integrity and honesty and I don't like drama.
Galagirl
Galagirl said:I am sorry you struggle.
To me? Action behavior or thinking behaviors happen. Then feelings ensue. So If I don't like how I feel, I have to see what behavior I can change. If I do like how I feel, I keep doing the same behavior.
You are asking for help with a coping mechanisms or resources to "change my brain so it aligns with my heart."
That points to THINKING BEHAVIORS first to me.
Your "big umbrella" wants seems to be
I want all three of us to be happy, humbled, and healthy together
And how you want to get there is by
I want some guidance on learning how to cope with my anxiety and panic attacks
That is reasonable.
I don't know if this helps, but here's what pops up to me in reading your post.
I am having difficulty with him "choosing" her over me and honestly throw a bit if a tantrum when he does. When I've been out of town and come home I feel angry knowing they have been sleeping together and treat them accordingly.
That sounds out of order chronologically. If you keep a journal, try to put things in order chronologically. That makes it easier to sort out "behavior happens, then feelings ensue." So if any behavior needs changing, it is easier to find.
In chronological order it sounds like this to me.
- I go out of town.
- They spend time alone together.
- I get home and learn this.
- I think "Ahhhh! he is choosing her over me!"
- I get angry as a result of that thinking.
- I react by taking it out on them rather than pause, think, and respond.
When you learn to record it like that, you see what behavior happened when it starting going down hill.
Then you can learn to CHALLENGE your thinking when unwelcome "popcorn thoughts" pop up. Like this:
Popcorn thought: "Ahhhh! he is choosing her over me!" (<-- Fire alarm goes off)
Challenge the thinking. (<---Check for fire)
- How is he choosing her over me when I am not even there? The actuality is that they are choosing to hang out together. I am away on a trip. It's ok for them to do that.
- If hubby were on a trip, would G and I hang out? Sure. Why not?
- If G were on a trip? Would hubby and I hang out? Sure, why not?
- So where was the fire? There is none. False alarm. (<--- Actual conclusion after checking for fire. No jumping to conclusions)
- So how do I respond? Safe to ignore popcorn thought. No response required.
- I am safe. All is well. (<--- self reassure.)
Learn to reassure yourself and talk the anxiety DOWN. Not talk it UP.
When I know H and G are going to, wanting to, trying to, hinting that they want to have sex I loose my mind. I am physically sick and reel into a full panic attack.
Why is this communication model in place? How is this model serving you well?
That would drive me crazier than them just having sex. All that pussyfooting behavior stuff. I find it triggering when people are not assertive and do that meek and mild hemming and hawing thing. Just drags things out.
Would you prefer NOT to know the TMI details of their sex life -- when, where, and how they have it, or that they feel horny? You could tell them to get on with it and just stop TMI and pussyfooting so you can be free of triggering from that.
(Is it only the pussyfooting behavior? Or another jumping to conclusion thing here too?)
We have recently talked about implementing a schedule to define alone rltime to work on our individual relationships.
Great! Then you get the time you need with H. And can relax about there being not enough time for you.
I am terrified for "their nights" . Because she has a high needs child he cannot be in the care of a sitter. This limits their time unless I babysit which I am not particularly inclined to do.
Her child is her responsibility. Not yours. You could say "Heads up -- I do not sit on date nights. I want the time to be working on my stuff so the triad can become healthier." Boom. That prevents any assumptions being made about you sitting and you can relax that nobody is going to be asking you to.
If you are an anxiety person, learn to deal with just YOUR jobs. Don't be picking up other people's jobs. They can handle it. That's another coping tool so you aren't running yourself ragged and burning out. Do only YOUR jobs. Not the world's.
I am terrified for "their nights" . Because she has a high needs child he cannot be in the care of a sitter. This limits their time unless I babysit which I am not particularly inclined to do.Because she has a high needs child he cannot be in the care of a sitter. This limits their time unless I babysit which I am not particularly inclined to do. Not because I don't want them to spend time together but because I have raised my children and don't want to be a babysitter. My thoughts were more along the lines of finding a distraction from keeping my mind from obsessing about what G and H are doing.
Your topic sentence is feeling terror. Then you go on to write supporting sentences to keep the terror going. That's talking UP your anxiety and ADDING. That is not TAKING AWAY.
You could have written
"I want to do something else on those nights so I can focus on not obsessing" and made that the topic sentence. You know the second sentence would be "I am going to tell them I do not babysit on their date night."
There. That's your goal and what you do NOT do.
What about what you DO do? What would be the other supporting sentences? How would you fill in the rest if the third sentence starts out with
"Here's some things I am going to try. I am going to do...."
Are you going to sew? Call a friend and see a movie? Read? Exercise?
Learn to TAKE AWAY from your anxiety by making a plan, not ADD MORE anxiety by fueling the terror. Fuel COPING instead.
Maybe those are places you could start.
A kid book:
What to Do When You Worry Too Much: A Kid's Guide to Overcoming Anxiety
Kid movie: The Croods.
Grug is the Dad who REACTS to EVERYTHING with "where's the danger! Family kill circle!" He's a super anxious guy who has to learn to not be afraid all the time. That he CAN figure out how to cope if unexpected things happen.
It is not the only theme of the movie, but it's there. Maybe it helps you some on the "change my brain" thing -- changing how you view your world like Grug works to change how he views his.
Sometimes looking at the kid stuff makes it easier to digest. Maybe it helps.
You could also seek a poly counselor to help you with that anxiety thing.
HTH!
Galagirl
pg 91
The ability to step back requires three different but related skills that people with BPD typically lack:
- Ability to understand the needs, feelings, and beliefs of other people
- Ability to see how others perceive them
- Ability to see how their own behavior affects others
The problems with understanding other people's needs, feelings, and perspectives lead people with BPD to run over the boundaries of other people.
The ability to step back requires three different but related skills that some polyamorous people in NRE lack:
- Ability to understand the needs, feelings, and beliefs of other people
- Ability to see how others perceive them
- Ability to see how their own behavior affects others
Not understanding other people's needs, feelings, and perspectives could lead some NRE poly people to run over the boundaries of other people.
pg 218
The most pivotal interpersonal skill of all is the ability to understand that although other people, like you, do have thoughts opinions and emotions, those thoughts, opinions and emotions aren't always concordant with yours.
When you fail to grasp where others are coming from, you run a high risk of offending, disrespecting, hurting or annoying them. You may also bore the people by running on about your own issues and failing to notices the cures that tell you it's time to connect with whoever you're talking to.
This interpersonal skill involves both understand that other people have independent thoughts and feelings and appreciating that other people have various motivations and intentions that they don't always state openly and explicitly. Being able to understand the perspectives an mindsets of other people allows you to do the following.
- Empathize with other people
- Make sense of what others do
- Change your behavior in response to how others respond
- Predict how other people are likely to respond to you
- Understand nuances in conversations, such as sarcasm, humor, and teasing
- Adjust what you say in accordance to feedback from others
Here's the other thing I don't get. Why some mono people are so reticent to put it out there plain {snip}
Just don't be together romantically. Saves headaches all around.
Probably because of the interpersonal skill of "knowing one's own personal limitations."
Me? I view NRE as "brain dumping chemistry that fogs my view." Pleasantly intense to feel, but it's lala clouds, not real. Eventually the cloud lifts, and the behaviors that are left is what is real.
From http://marriage.about.com/od/loveandromance/g/maturelove.htm
"Signs of mature love include acceptance, emotional support, commitment, calmness, respect, caring, kindness, friendship, and consideration."
Those are some of the things I find joyful in my marriage. That's what I would be seeking in other partners.