Reinventing Ivy

Too many e-mails and not enough face to face discussions and too many assumptions based on non-communication. A lot of this sounds very familiar to what my husband and I are struggling with and 90% of it is how we communicate or don't communicate with each other and each of us making assumptions based on stuff NOT said.

Very true. I've noticed that when something isn't communicated, I start to get very afraid of the reasons why nothing's been communicated--and, of course, I assume those reasons must be very very bad. If someone is avoiding giving you bad news, you don't want to call them up and ask what the bad news is, because it's just going to hurt like hell.

So, for instance, the lunch thing. When he was fifteen minutes late, I started thinking he was going to stand me up entirely because, naturally, Ella wouldn't want him around me. (Another friend in this circle--one who was occasionally sexually involved with Ella--had stood me up for lunch a couple weeks before, after he found out there was tension between Ella and me, and that still stung).

So, when I realized I had forgotten my wallet, I figured I'd go get it, and if he wasn't there when I got back, I'd text him. The quick trip home and back would give me a moment to think out what I would say, without sounding scared or snarky.

When I got back and it had only been eight minutes, I looked around for him a little, then took a seat. I drafted a text, then decided it sounded bitter, and deleted it. Then I started to think I was overreacting, that he might still show up, so I let myself wait until 12:45, at which point I texted him.

He did say he thought *I* had stood *him* up, but at that point I was hurt that he had only stayed for five minutes before giving up on me, and I was waiting for the inevitable rejection because of the state of things with Ella.

To me this would be common courtesy.

...And, in light of the effed-up, bizarre psychology that surrounds breakups, metamours, hurt feelings, and unspoken fears, common courtesy pretty much goes out the window. :(
 
Oh, and a disclaimer to all this:

I'm focusing on the worst here, because I'm trying to figure out where it went wrong, and if there's anything I could do differently.

Ella and I had an amazing amount of fun, most of the time. We had an incredible time in Vegas. I think I got her to relax quite a bit (she's typically very type-A), and I know I got her to feel a little more open with compassion and emotion. At one point, after Ben's divorce was finalized (see first entry re: creepy guy with wedding ring), they were both talking (separately) about how much they wanted to get married, but didn't think the other loved them that much, so I gently nudged Ella to propose to Ben, and helped her make the arrangements for it (he said yes; they're getting married in a couple months). And, just being around either or both of them made me very happy. Most of the time. I miss them, but thinking about that too much does make it much, much worse.

Being angry feels better.
 
Goddamn freaking bloody hell on toast.

I have this friend who's amazing. The type who dances until dawn, drinks fluffy fruity cocktails with umbrellas, smiles at absolutely everyone all the time, and is just all-around great to be around. She does know about my sexuality, but it really doesn't come up in conversation. She's looking for Mr. Right to settle down and have kiddos, so, in the past, I've mostly just helped her scope out husband material, and we have lots of fun doing it.

So, we've been talking about going out, since we'd almost lost touch and we've both been feeling a little cut off from everyone since graduation. We decided to make plans.

Who does she invite out of effing NOWHERE?

Ella.

Because she knows that Ella and I are good friends, and the more the merrier!! :D :D :D

In the two hours it took me to come up with a response, Ella emailed, apologizing for the awkwardness.

Bugger, FML, etc.
 
Originally Posted by MrFarFromRight
(Well... yes!:p But using a much more positive definition of "selfishness" that you imply here.)
Is there such a thing as "compassionate selfishness?"

Maybe "self-actualization" or "self-determination" are better words for it. They don't carry the nasty connotation of "selfishness."
I meant "looking out for yourself" (without damaging others). So the 2 terms you mention are valid, but I would add self-caring, self-loving, self-respecting.

I'm certainly NOT a proponent of "selfless" love or "sacrificing for love".
I heartily (yet again, but on another thread [this makes the 3rd time on polyamory threads]) recommend reading The Princess Who Stood On Her Own Two Feet” by Jeanne Desy. But there's a typo in the story, so read my warning about that here.
 
Ivy, as I've written to you before, I don't want to hand down a sentence without reading the other parties' point of view, but - judging by what you have written - I'll make certain comments. [I lose this connection in ONE minute, so will save it and edit later.][Back again with explanation: I'm presently using library computers and there's a maximum of 1hr/day on each one. I have a quota of 15hrs/month and can use up several hours in one day, as long as I hop from one computer to another.:rolleyes:]

OK, to start with: If Ben and Ella (who both have got close to / loved you) have BOTH said that you have a problem with low self-esteem, then I would certainly recommend that you consider that as a potential major factor in all this.

HOWEVER [Is there any other way that I can highlight that word even further, without using coloured letters - after I've virtually promised other members that I won't do so?:eek:]: You're my friend on here, Ivy, you write with intelligence and what seems like a sincere wish to reach an understanding of all this. Unless I'm very much mistaken, you're not lying to us, you're trying to be honest with yourself (and - I assume - with Ben and Ella), and you're [you were] trying to communicate with them.

On the other hand - although I don't want to attribute any malicious intent to deceive to either of them - I can only too well imagine why Ben and Ella (each for their own, different, reason) weren't putting that much energy into being totally open with you. [Remember that this is my imagination at work here, but here goes:] Ella because of past hurt, present hurt pride, fear of future hurt. Ben because of unadmitted [to himself] shame at having been willing to give up his friendship with you in order to keep the peace (and - dare I suggest? - keep the piece) with Ella.

[Coincidentally, there's a story written by a friend of mine which contains the following 4 elements: a character named Ella, a growth away from a lack of self-esteem, a character willing to hide a friendship in order to maintain certain other benefits, an honest attempt to be honest - even when painful: "Ella Of The Cinders" by Jimmy Hollis i Dickson. It contains the following quote:
“I'm not willing to wait around for anybody to notice me. I’m not willing to wait until I’m acceptable. I’ve learned that I’m too important for that. Oh, I’m important to you, I’m important to Maeve; but that’s not what I’m talking about. Maeve helped me find this out, and you’ve helped as well. But if I lost the both of you, I'd still have learned my lesson: I'm important to myself. Too important to hide in any corners until the respectable people are out of the way, like I’ve been doing with Ernestine, Gladys, and Primrose. I want to be proud of all my friends. And I want them to be proud of me... I can’t offer you an easier choice than your father has. I’m sorry..."
It now occurs to me that there's another point in common with your story: the importance of appearances in making an impression on shallow people.]

As I suggested on your other thread, if you talk to Ben and this turns out to be true... walk away with your held held high. "Friends" like that you do NOT need. If his friendship means enough to you, I would recommend talking openly with him at least one more time before you give his friendship up for lost.

Ariakis uses a signature that includes a wonderful quote from George Bernard Shaw: “The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”

Further comment from me?
And she said she didn't think she wanted to see me anymore. She said she needed a couple more weeks to decide for sure.

She explained that she wasn't comfortable seeing someone who didn't approve of her sexual choices. She said I had incredibly low self-esteem, and that I was taking it out on people who care about me. She pointed out that she could find lots of other relationships with people who would have no problem with her sexuality.

I didn't know what to say. I had thought out the worst-case scenarios, of course, but they involved her getting very angry. This was sudden, and she was icy cold about it.
Very often, when we don't want to deal with our own shit, we put the blame for things not working out on others. The "icy cold" is - forgive my stating the obvious - chilling. Let's zoom in here:
She said I had incredibly low self-esteem, and that I was taking it out on people who care about me.
I've been looking for one of the polyamory.com smileys with its eyebrows about 36cm above the top of the head, but they don't offer this option, so I've got to make do with:
:eek:!!!:eek:
Talk about pots, kettles, and the colour black! (And what the therapists call "projection".)
 
If his friendship means enough to you, I would recommend talking openly with him at least one more time before you give his friendship up for lost.

I've been thinking about this a lot.

In my last (email) conversations with Ella, we agreed that maybe we could be friends. Eventually. Depending on how we felt. My interpretation of that was either (1) she was trying to be polite and not burn bridges, especially since we work in the same industry in the same city, or (2) she actually might want to be friends eventually, but isn't really ready to go down that road yet. I'm definitely at (2), so that agreement is fine with me. Maybe eventually we will be friends...but not yet. And if not, I'm okay with that too.

(On that note, I backed out of going out with my crazy-happy-husband-hunting friend. I didn't want to put her in the middle of an awkward situation like that--she doesn't know that Ella and I were involved.)

With Ben, though, I've been feeling lately like it's a lost cause. I feel really awful admitting this, but I felt more of a "bond" with him, when we were on good terms anyway--probably because we had more in common, but also because we started as nothing more than friends, and then feelings developed later. With Ella, it was attraction and amazing sex, and then feelings developed from that. So letting go of my friendship with Ben hurts more, and there's much more regret--if only I had suppressed my attraction to him early on, we might still be good friends.

But I also know that's not realistic. It still would have hurt to try not to feel something that strong. Ella still would have been jealous of him spending time with me, even if we had never been attracted to each other at all. If she found herself in the same situation, she would have become sexually involved, as she does with most of her male friends. So she would have attributed that background motive to even the most innocuous friendship between Ben and me.

And now, Ella and I have a messy, painful history. Being friends with me would mean facing Ella's potentially intense jealousy on two levels. If I've realized anything about Ben, it's that he's very loyal to Ella, and willing to sacrifice a lot to make her happy.

I may be building a worst-case scenario here (I tend to do that), but if I sought a friendship with him, I think he'd be vague and dodgy about it. He wouldn't want to hurt me, but he also wouldn't want to upset Ella, so he wouldn't do either.

The last email he sent me, he commented that your friends care about you, even when they take a few steps back. I think he intended for me to understand that as an explanation of his feelings. It hurts--people who take a few steps back seldom return--but it might be time to accept it. :(
 
I've been thinking about this a lot.
Yeah, you do think a lot, don't you? That isn't a criticism! Better you should think than act stupidly. But - as the Spanish say - "No te comas el coco." [Don't eat your own head.]
I may be building a worst-case scenario here (I tend to do that), but if I sought a friendship with him, I think he'd be vague and dodgy about it. He wouldn't want to hurt me, but he also wouldn't want to upset Ella, so he wouldn't do either.

The last email he sent me, he commented that your friends care about you, even when they take a few steps back. I think he intended for me to understand that as an explanation of his feelings. It hurts--people who take a few steps back seldom return--but it might be time to accept it. :(
At least the present situation means that YOU don't have to decide to maintain distance from Ben in order to maintain your relationship with Ella. This should feel alleviating (but I bet it doesn't, does it?:() If Ella insinuates that your closeness to Ben is going to make it unlikely that there'll be a resumption of her friendship towards you, then that's the definitive proof. People who use emotional blackmail of that kind are NOT worth having as friends!

My advice (worth about one butter bean, but I'll let you have it completely free of charge):
1) Read both stories linked in my last comments.
2) Send the links to Ben and ask him to read the stories, too.
3) Use the stories and the conversation at the end of the 2nd one as a springboard in a talk to Ben about what true friendship is all about. Tell him that his friendship means a lot to you... but not enough to swallow a pile of SHIT.
4) Find some [other] friends who treat you and your friendship as the treasures that you are.
5) Don't allow others' emotional inadequacies undermine your sense of worth!
6) Keep looking in that mirror... and SMILE at yourself, goddammit!
7) If all else fails, plan a visit to Spain.:):):):rolleyes::eek::eek:
 
Ivy, I am amazed that you put so much effort in trying to make something work with those two. To me, it seems, neither one ever really made the same effort nor had much consideration for you. I also question whether it was ever really love you felt for Ella, or was it just a love of solving problems? Or a need to be wanted? Or... I'm not sure.

I think it is time you move on and be open to wonderfulness with other people who don't play games and then try to convince you there's something wrong with you. You deserve to be treated well and respected.
 
"No te comas el coco." [Don't eat your own head.]

I think I need that tattooed on my wrist.

If Ella insinuates that your closeness to Ben is going to make it unlikely that there'll be a resumption of her friendship towards you, then that's the definitive proof. People who use emotional blackmail of that kind are NOT worth having as friends!

I don't think there will be a resumption of friendship with either of them, regardless of the circumstances. Ben isn't comfortable being around me if Ella and I aren't on good terms, and the idea of me being involved with Ben, even on a platonic level, is to upsetting for Ella to cope with. Unfortunately, I don't think that's something that will improve with time and honesty, either.

I did read both stories--very enlightening!--but I don't think I'm going to start any conversations, with either of them. It can't go anywhere good, at least not for me.

I'm still struggling to climb out of this pit of low self-esteem, and being told that my low self-esteem is the cause of everyone's collective problems only makes me feel worse about myself. I can't figure out how to heal that without removing myself entirely from the situation.

6) Keep looking in that mirror... and SMILE at yourself, goddammit!

This I will do, however. At least until I fall over giggling.

7) If all else fails, plan a visit to Spain.:):):):rolleyes::eek::eek:

I wish. My college degrees are in Art History and Medieval Studies. I wouldn't want to leave.
 
Ivy, I am amazed that you put so much effort in trying to make something work with those two. To me, it seems, neither one ever really made the same effort nor had much consideration for you.

There were bright spots that are probably overshadowed in my retelling. I do put a premium on maintaining relationships, though. On the one hand, it means my healthy relationships survive rough patches and endure for the long term. On the other hand, it usually takes me a long time to admit that a relationship was fundamentally flawed, for reasons that I had no control over. Control freak fail.

I also question whether it was ever really love you felt for Ella, or was it just a love of solving problems? Or a need to be wanted? Or... I'm not sure.

There was definite, powerful sexual attraction, and I cared (and still care) about her very much. Yes, even "loved" her, though I wonder now how much of it was actually romantic love and how much was simply platonic love coupled with a desire to "nurture" (this is probably what you mean by solving problems).

I've never done the FWB thing before, so I'm not sure I was prepared to differentiate between those feelings. She has a whole lot of FWBs, and she seemed to consider our relationship as something more significant...and, in retrospect, it felt really good to stand out from the crowd.

I think it is time you move on and be open to wonderfulness with other people who don't play games and then try to convince you there's something wrong with you. You deserve to be treated well and respected.

:D

I'm trying. I feel really socially isolated right now, but that will improve with time.

I tried out for a banked-track roller derby league right after the breakup and made it (I'd only skated flat before), so I'm meeting lots of interesting people who yell at me to SKATE FASTER DAMMIT and GET MY ASS BACK ON THE TRACK.

At least my new friends prefer physical pain over psychological.
 
Also (and this sucks to admit), Ben and Ella are the only people, apart from Vino, who've openly shown any attraction to me in more than a decade. I have friends who've told me I'm objectively attractive, or who do the friendly-flirt thing, but they're also quick to disclaim any actual interest.

So, it really feels like that was as good as it's ever going to get, and it'll be at least another decade before anyone shows interest. I KNOW that's my low self-esteem and nasty past experiences talking, so please don't rip into me for it! But it's still incredibly difficult to move past that feeling, real or imagined.
 
I'm still struggling to climb out of this pit of low self-esteem, and being told that my low self-esteem is the cause of everyone's collective problems only makes me feel worse about myself.

Okay, people harping at you to fix your low self esteem aren't helping much. the more you hear that, the more you make it your mantra ("I have low self-esteem and need to fix it"), the more you believe it. Fuck that! Toss that old tape out.

Both Ella and Ben sound extremely immature and into drama. How dare they put you down for any reason!


Also (and this sucks to admit), Ben and Ella are the only people, apart from Vino, who've openly shown any attraction to me in more than a decade. I have friends who've told me I'm objectively attractive, or who do the friendly-flirt thing, but they're also quick to disclaim any actual interest.
I would safely hazard a guess that there were others interested but you just didn't see it through your Nobody's-ever-attracted-to-me blinders.

So, it really feels like that was as good as it's ever going to get, and it'll be at least another decade before anyone shows interest. I KNOW that's my low self-esteem and nasty past experiences talking, so please don't rip into me for it! But it's still incredibly difficult to move past that feeling, real or imagined.

We live in the atmosphere of our beliefs. If you don't like the atmosphere, change your beliefs. Really and truly, you can stop identifying yourself as someone with low self-esteem, who never attracts anyone. You have to be vigilant to nip those thoughts in the bud when they pop up and tell yourself to stop making up such bad shit about you. Replace that with "I am a confident, attractive woman with a lot to offer." If you tend to shlump around, work on your posture. If there are things you do that make you feel confident, hang around a crowd where that is appreciated.

And remember this, and this is important: We human beings always pick up the unconscious messages of others, like radio waves. If there are people you hang out with who portray an uber-cool and confident vibe and you feel insecure and like your esteem is in the toilet when you're around them, know that you are actually detecting how they really feel about themselves underneath their fake, manufactured bravado. Truly confident, secure people who really have their shit together inspire those around them to feel the same. Honestly, that is the truth. We feel good about ourselves when we hang with others who feel good about themselves. If we feel shitty around people who appear to have it together, then you know they are faking it and what you are sensing is their insecurities.
 
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Odd conversation with Vino last night.

I brought up the topic of whether it would help or hurt to try dating right now. It made him shifty, so I asked why. The gist is that he's watched how upset this has made me, and doesn't really understand why I would want to bother starting another relationship with anyone else. He says it's exhausting.

To be fair, he's pretty worn out from this, too. I've been improving, but I was pretty mopey for a while. He's sick to death of hearing about it, and it's been affecting our sex life, too (since I feel icky and undesirable and have been eating too much chocolate).

I clarified things, of course. He's not at all jealous of me dating women, though he does seem to think they're all emotional basketcases at the moment. He is jealous of men, but he's determined that it's a very deep, basic hostility toward other men's fertility (to be fair, I get pregnant if a guy sneezes on me, so it's not a baseless fear), rather than an emotional fear of losing me. In short, he's cool with me dating eunuchs.

But he just doesn't understand why I'd want to bother, with either. It really sounds overwhelming to him. He's very laid back and not particularly ambitious about anything, so it's not surprising. Unfortunately, I'm not happy unless I have an endlessly evolving array of hobbies and interests...so maybe it's not surprising that I'm not feeling quite "right" without additional social and sexual connections.

He says he understands this about me. But I'm still worried what damage it might do to our marriage if I starting actively trying to date again--even if I limited myself to women.

Me: Ya know, even with the problems, I did really enjoy having a "secondary" relationship.
Vino: So...you liked having someone who sort of liked you, and was sort of there for you some of the time?
Me: Um...yeah. I guess.
 
Ha. Ivy, my guess is that you liked the idea of going against societal norms. But hey you can do that by re-investing in your marriage and finding ways to make that more exciting and fulfilling (so few couples do that, it would be going against the grain!). Why not spend time working on YOU, and satisfy that need for hobbies with things you like to do but which are not relationships? Why not take time out for peace and tranquility, go to some meditation retreat or something? Come back from self-exploration stronger and more comfy with YOU, and you will attract more mature, kind, loving people for additional relationships. I dare say the idiocy of those two, and the drama they created, could have something to do with, perhaps, a dissatisfaction on your part with living on an even keel. I have a friend like you, and I often kid him by saying "You can't hit a moving target, right?" Slow down, feel the hurt, confusion, sadness that is there as well as the joy, sense of accomplishments, and so on. That is where your confidence will come, by the way.
 
Unfortunately, I'm not happy unless I have an endlessly evolving array of hobbies and interests...

LOL, this describes my whole family :). I'm joining a historical re-enactment group, where I can put ot use some of things I already love to do, but find that I am really excited about learning some new stuff :p. I need another hobby like I need a hole in my head :eek:
 
I'm joining a historical re-enactment group, where I can put ot use some of things I already love to do....

SCA, by any chance? I've been struggling not to join that for years--just too much of a time commitment. But I really really wanna!
 
SCA, by any chance? I've been struggling not to join that for years--just too much of a time commitment. But I really really wanna!

Not really, but I think quite a few members participate in both. It's a Scottish highland group, that has a big presence at the local Ren Faire and other events. I'm still a bit clueless about all the logistics still.
 
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