poly or swinging

In sociology, anthropology and cultural studies, a subculture is a group of people with a culture (whether distinct or hidden) which differentiates them from the larger culture to which they belong.

And those sub-cultures are described the same as cultures, with a listing of all of the characteristics shared. Do please provide a listing of all of the characteristics of this supposed poly sub-culture. I'll offer that a single similarity does not a sub-culture make.
 
And those sub-cultures are described the same as cultures, with a listing of all of the characteristics shared. Do please provide a listing of all of the characteristics of this supposed poly sub-culture. I'll offer that a single similarity does not a sub-culture make.

Where does it say there has to be more than one shared similarity?
 
I know when I was in my class about Culture a couple of months ago, that culture has a more amorphous definition than people think. I used to think I have no culture-- but culture can include things like age, education, socio-economic status, etc. So yes, being non-monogamous may be a sub-culture. That doesn't mean that everyone who is non-monogamous has the same values. It just means that there is a group of people who are non-monogamous, for whom monogamy is not the chosen relationship style. Other than that, there will always be differences.
 
I think this is an interesting excerpt from an article I just discovered about polyamory,. There is a section which compares it to different things, one of which is swinging:

"What distinguishes polyamory from other movements it is often lumped in with by mainstream observers, and what does this indicate about the self-determination framing I propose?

Swinging

Polyamory is sometimes compared to swinging. But if they are so similar, why are there so many swingers and so few polyfolk? To outsiders, both seem based on similar elements of open sexuality, yet the lifestyle gang can fill entire Las Vegas hotels with their conventions, while polyfolk count it as a big success if there are even a hundred people at one of their conferences.

The difference, I feel, is the challenge of self-determination. Very broadly stated, swingers buy into a new set of externally generated rules to enjoy a new form of recreational activity. That is, they simply trade the mainstream rules for the lifestyle rules. By contrast, the poly way is to make up one's own rules, internal to the specific relationship in question, to create a new way of structuring deep aspects of one's life. (These are broad generalizations. I know many people in the swing scene who take it deeper, and many polys who don't. But for this broad discussion, I feel these generalizations are basically valid.)

This is relevant because it is far easier to buy in to a new set of external rules than to take full responsibility for the self-examination and honest discussion necessary to create your own. So it's logical that there are far fewer polyfolk than swingers. The poly ideal is that all interested parties sit down and co-create the rules they want to live by, personally and between themselves. This is worthwhile, but it's not easy, and most people are unwilling to do the tough self-examination and open-hearted negotiation it demands.

Even more, most people are unwilling to take the necessary personal responsibility for creating a successful outcome. With some other paradigms, people accept external rules as provided. This lets them blame any failures on the external rules. But polyamory is where you write your own rules, so "the buck stops here", because "here" is where the framework got set up in the first place. "​

The article is called "There's No Such Thing As Polyamory," by Barry Smiler, written last year and published in the Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality, Volume 14, April 7, 2011.
 
...............
The article is called "There's No Such Thing As Polyamory," by Barry Smiler, written last year and published in the Electronic Journal of Human Sexuality, Volume 14, April 7, 2011.

That's an interesting take NYC.

I can't say that I ever thought of it that way, but can't say I disagree with the crux of it either.

I doubt that many people who swing would say/feel that they are navigating within a set of "externally" created guidelines but in fact they are to a degree. Because the swing scene is a subculture itself, of course it has it's own 'rules and guidelines' that a majority of people will adhere to - whether knowingly or not.

But I don't see poly as being any different - except in scale (numbers) as the author mentioned. It's still a subculture, has it's own set of evolving rules and guidelines, and has variance within the culture the same as all cultures do.

The fact that "poly rules" may be more difficult doesn't make it something unique. It just means the extra effort will likely discourage more people, thus keeping the numbers down.

Interesting..........

GS
 
Interesting. I have not read all 11 pages...but....I will say that the two are so closely interwoven, that it is difficult to see who is a "swinger", vs. a "poly person".

My wife and I started thinking we were "swingers". But in reality, I think we've always done it as poly. Yes, the sex was the leading factor in getting with another cpl, but we would only ever do anything with one other cpl. In fact, we were....exclusive....with those couples, and developed feelings for them. We have "dated" two couples, two single males, and a unicorn that got away. :p All over the course of about 13 years or so. Yes, we've had one night stands. However, those started out as a date...ended up in bed...and poof...they never called back, or returned calls or texts. :( Sooo...I guess that's the way it goes for some.

So, sometimes, a person identifies as a "swinger" (like my wife and I did for a long time) yet lived as "poly". ;)

Our last relationship with a cpl, we realized that we had fallen in love with the female, when the male said he didn't want to do anything more because I opened up and said I had developed feelings for her. She was flattered and said she felt the same way about my wife and I and that if her hubby weren't in the picture, or they even weren't married, she would move in with us in a heartbeat. But because she WAS married, and she DID love her husband also, she had to choose to stay with him. I told her we didn't WANT them to break up! But...He equated the word "polyamory" with "polygamy", and thought I wanted his wife to add to my own. Which, would have been nice in it's self, but not what we desired. He didn't get it. Never has, sadly. So, we had to cut them from our lives entirely.


I have found that the "poly" crowd, tends to look down their noses at "swingers", as if they were "dirty" or something. Seems kinda "elitist" to me, but eh...What do I know?


So, Rules...or no rules...I don't care how it's done. But if all parties are consenting, who cares what it's called?
 
Well waterskiing and surf-boarding are practically the same thing, so who cares which word you use? What's a little thing like having a motor boat tow you got to do with it? Ice cream and frozen yogurt are practically the same thing, what's a little acidophilus culture to you? Alternating current or direct current? Bah, both are types of electricity. Who cares whether you're accurate or not? As long as everyone agrees to be inaccurate, after all, red, green, blue, orange, yellow? they're all the same! Just different wavelengths along the visible spectrum! Who cares? Some people can't even distinguish between blue and green! Why bother having all those words? It's so... so... doubleplusungood.
 
@NYCIndie

I like that article. It made sense in my brain. I think poly does have a lot more room for interpretation and negotiation than swinging does. To me, swinging seems more like an activity, like tennis or ice skating. It just happens to involve a lot of fucking.

In some ways, words are very arbitrary and sometimes even irrelevant. But in something complex, I feel the need to attempt to define at least my experience so I can narrate it to others in way they understand. Perhaps we should attempt to pay more attention to poly or swinging as how it plays out in our lives rather than finding a standardized cookie cutter definition.
 
The guy who wrote the article is giving a talk with his partner this Tuesday at my local poly organization, OpenLoveNY. I posted the announcement on the regional forum. Unfortunately, I can't go this Tuesday. This is the first Discussion I really wanted to attend, too! Waaaa.


His talk is called, "There's No Such Thing as Polyamory," and will be based on the article this excerpt comes from.

Full article is here: http://www.ejhs.org/volume14/NoSuch.htm
 
.................

So, sometimes, a person identifies as a "swinger" (like my wife and I did for a long time) yet lived as "poly". ;)

I haven't been participating much for awhile but when this topic comes up in pulls me back in.

I am consistantly baffled by why people/public can't clearly get the difference between "swinging" and poly - and also that many people who self define (such as you two did) as 'swingers' often don't 'get it'.

A majority of people enjoy sex - including a little variety. A MINORITY of people can navigate any form of intimacy smoothly and an even smaller minority can imagine let alone navigate multiple intimacy. (the 'love part etc)

And why this seems so difficult to understand is simply beyond me...........

But most 'swingers' go in looking for sex and it's not long before the potential for intimacy rears it's head. Being unawares and unprepared just seems........I don't know.........extremely ignorant and naive in 2011 !

GS


I have found that the "poly" crowd, tends to look down their noses at "swingers", as if they were "dirty" or something. Seems kinda "elitist" to me, but eh...What do I know?

People often find some reason to "look down their nose" at others. It's part & parcel of having insecurities.
 
This thread makes me smile everytime it pops up.

All the books, and written theories, are so biased to the author`s natural inclinations. I kinda toss them out. If you want to gain a valuable, knowledgeable intepretation,..try it. Try it all.

Having been part of both 'worlds', I see many things. Some dictated by regional differences. Some dictated by club, or community outlooks.

I see fear-mongering by poly people towards what they think swinging is. Usually by people who haven never done it to any extent to truly form a valid opinion.

I also see the exact same thing with swinging. Swingers who think poly people are crazy, and foolish for letting things go 'so far'.

The truth is,..there are various aspects on both sides. In poly, you have folks new to it, who use DADT, and OPP rules, or stick to unicorns,.....This is usually a beginner phase, and people branch from there.

In swinging you have this too. People who start out with soft swing, refuse to see others more then once, refuse emotional involvement, and refuse to date separately.


*******

The most 'poly' relationship I ever had, was started 10 years ago, with 2 couples we met at swinger clubs.The 6 of us became 'exclusive swingers' and all enjoyed each others lives both in the bedroom and out. We supported each other emotionally, and sometimes physically, when a helping hand was needed. Our children were friends and had sleepovers. Feelings were most definitely a part of the equation. That lasted 1 1/2 years and 2 years, respectfully. I`ve not been able to find anything like it, since. :(

I find the biggest disservice to both sides, happens when you try to regulate what THE OTHER side is. "Poly people only love'......'Swingers only care about sex.'
' Poly people are scared of sex, and swingers are scared of emotions.'
Yay. :confused:
When this happens, you force people to choose. In the same manner a monogamous-world forces people to either be single, or be married.


Live and let live. Sheesh.
 
I find it amusing and enjoy watching when people on this forum cant seem to wrap their minds around the idea that someone can be in love with more than one person and still enjoy casual sex with someone they hardly know.
 
This thread makes me smile every time it pops up.

All the books, and written theories, are so biased to the author`s natural inclinations. I kinda toss them out. If you want to gain a valuable, knowledgeable interpretation,..try it. Try it all.

Having been part of both 'worlds', I see many things. Some dictated by regional differences. Some dictated by club, or community outlooks.

I see fear-mongering by poly people towards what they think swinging is. Usually by people who haven never done it to any extent to truly form a valid opinion.

I also see the exact same thing with swinging. Swingers who think poly people are crazy, and foolish for letting things go 'so far'.

The truth is,..there are various aspects on both sides. In poly, you have folks new to it, who use DADT, and OPP rules, or stick to unicorns,.....This is usually a beginner phase, and people branch from there.

In swinging you have this too. People who start out with soft swing, refuse to see others more then once, refuse emotional involvement, and refuse to date separately.


*******

The most 'poly' relationship I ever had, was started 10 years ago, with 2 couples we met at swinger clubs 6 of us became 'exclusive swingers' and all enjoyed each others lives both in the bedroom and out. We supported each other emotionally, and sometimes physically, when a helping hand was needed. Our children were friends and had sleepovers. Feelings were most definitely a part of the equation. That lasted 1 1/2 years and 2 years, respectfully. I`ve not been able to find anything like it, since. :(

I find the biggest disservice to both sides, happens when you try to regulate what THE OTHER side is. "Poly people only love'......'Swingers only care about sex.'
' Poly people are scared of sex, and swingers are scared of emotions.'
Yay. :confused:
When this happens, you force people to choose. In the same manner a monogamous-world forces people to either be single, or be married.


Live and let live. Sheesh.
okay, now repeat that 5000 times :p

The thing is that both sides (and I hesitate to call it that as I don't see it as sides) need to process this and go through that. I did, I'm done and now see that its individual and not about choice but about letting YOURSELF live and let live just as much as leaving others to do the same.

To me it was about educating myself, processing my experience in terms of the triggers I had, ask questions and ask for patience while I asked questions, pushed the boundaries and worked it out. I am quite willing to support others while they do that. It would be my way to give back. At least until I am bored with the repetitive nature of this. But then most threads are repetitive and I am still here ;)
 
okay, now repeat that 5000 times :p

Ha ! I am surprised anyone understood my ramblings. I am sitting here on-hold, with a phone stuck in the crook of my neck. Decorated by my laptop, with my cat behind me, trying to turn my hair into her bedding. :D

She seems good at catching me with her nail, just as some new person puts me on hold,...again.
 
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I find it amusing and enjoy watching when people on this forum cant seem to wrap their minds around the idea that someone can be in love with more than one person and still enjoy casual sex with someone they hardly know.

Bravo! Well said! :)
 
I think I'm somewhere in the middle of both worlds. I want to be free to have sex and relationships with people I care about. I don't want to sleep with people I don't care about. I want to be free to persue more than one relationship if I choose and I don't want to be told I can't have a relationship with someone else just because I'm seeing someone already. I want to be free to live and love and explore what life has to offer.
 
swinging to polly is possible.

My girlfriend and I was swinging for years at a couples club that were mostly married, at first I dont think anyone cares about who is in a relationship with who, after a while you find you enjoy being with certain people, then you start to meet as a sub group say 6-8 couples at a hotel, all sitting around a big table having a light meal and drinks, girls talking about kids, jobs, men cars boats whatever just like everyday people, no one would ever guess we were swingers
and would be fucking our brains out within the hour, we looked to normal. all the guys were strait because I dont know of any girl that wants to be in a relationship or married to a gay guy but the girls were all unsuspecting bisexual before they started swinging, this was there night to let lose and eat all the smoothies they want for any reason while taking it from different guys, it was a lot of erotic fun for all, we discussed and acted upon being tested and showing our slips of paper, and yes we did enjoy being with the same people even though a couple would intro a new couple as much as a couple would drop out due to other commitments, other couples would break up for various reasons, but not because of swinging, some would ask if she could come with us as a three some, in these situations the guys need to rest up for a while, this was an ideal time for the girls to do their bi thing, girls seam to be so much more natural, sensual and passionate among themselves and noisy to, once we had a cop knocking on the door of our suit, told us to keep the noise down, at first we freaked! then laughed our asses off. we became close friends outside of the sex, if we needed a service of any kind we would rather see our swinging friends benifit from it than none swinging friends, the dictionary says "friend" is to know someone intimatly, but many people call themselves friends that are not, I find those people come and go, but intimate friendships seem to care more and last longer even though they may move away, I think swinging is excellent for none controling openminded people, however if you have a couple where one is openminded and happy with it and the other is closed minded and jealous thats a big red flag. I think swinging is a good starter for people wanting a polly situation, it seems to remove the fear and make it more natural to be intimate with another person or couple with your primary present, seeing my bisexual girlfriend go down on a girl or guy gave me an emence sence of pride in her as a caring sensual human being, she felt the same way seeing me with another girl, coressing or verbally urging her on to completion. however I think people in polly must be prepared to deal with all the issues of all the people as a group, the less mental baggage and the more financial responcibillity + more loving and caring within the group. Imagine four people having each their own home with housing food and utility cost of say $2,500 a month each or $10,000 collectivly, now they all move in together where cost are equally shared each could bank about $1,250 a month just from savings in housing cost, however the oposite can end up a mental nightmare of problems for those that are not financially or mentally ready for polly. the way this country is going its becoming financially impossible
for couples to keep their own home, im thinking of buying a large repo home (so cheap), and starting a polly clan, I think you are going to see more polly clans in the future and wouldent rule out inter breeding within the clan.
just my two cents, thanks for reading.
 
Coming at this from the "other" side, I just wanted to add my comments.

I have a different definition of swinging then what is commonly used here. In my community, swinging is a _couple's_ activity. It's something that the couple does together, frequently in the same room. So it does not include having extramarital sex partners that the couple sees on their own.

I am not a swinger. I don't like having that label applied to me. I do see men outside my marriage for primarily sexual purposes since I have a very high sex drive and my H travels a lot for his work. He does not see other women, so by definition there, we aren't swingers, nor do we have an open relationship. I am a hotwife.

So the plan was just for recreational sex... but then I fell in love with one of my FWB. It's been intensely rewarding and I'm glad that we have an open, loving relationship, but I could never do this with any more men! I don't think I have the emotional time or energy to deal with any more "real" relationships the way I like to. However, I certainly do have room in my life for casual, sex based relationships.

I like sex. It's pleasurable and fun, and I always feel great afterwards. I don't see anything wrong with just having some physical enjoyment with a man I may not know very well but have attraction to. I also don't think it makes me "less" of a person, or lacking self respect, or anything like that. I'm just a fan of, if it feels good (and doesn't hurt anyone), then do it.
 
He does not see other women, so by definition there, we aren't swingers, nor do we have an open relationship.

Really? I can't imagine your relationship being described as "closed" if you have sex with other people. I always figured that "open" meant "open to more partners", and that would make you open. Don't have to be open on both sides to be open.
 
You know what, as long as you know what you do and don't like, and as long as folks don't assume that their definition of a word is the same as anyone elses, who cares what you call it?
 
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