Responsibility of Thirds......

GS-you rock. :)

You know I love you (both) right?! ;)

Ok, I'll go hit hte quote button so that I can elaborate more appropriately.
 
LR, I'm really empathizing with you right now. Tech and I have only been together a little over three years but I feel as you've said as well.
Ourquad-I'm sorry to hear that you feel the same way-becuase I wouldn't wish the feeling of not being as important to someone as they are to you-on anyone. I'm also thankful, since you do feel as I've decribed, that you've said so, because it does ease some of the severity of pain to know I'm not alone.
And truthfully his answers may decide exactly what I do. If a secondary was all he could be to me, he should not have encourage me in making it more. I would have loved him still, but definitely done some things differently.
Ourquad-I quoted this part to Maca last night. It's so very true. I think the key difference HERE is that GG hasn't bothered to educate himself on WHAT it is he ACTUALLY wants. He SAID all of the right things to quote Maca, but (and I say this in deep sincerity as I know it's one of GG's less stellar habits) he never actually put the time and effort into learning what that really means to DO that.
I should have considered that detail. I KNEW he was bad about not digging into the deeper details, that he tends to overlook the finite details and distinctions in life. I knew that he has a tendency to follow and not make a stand for any one thing (including me over the years) on his own.
I SHOULD have considered the distinct possibility that even though I found Polyamory, and I figured out through MUCH searching that it was who I am. Even though I took the time to research it for myself AND THEN TOOK THE TIME TO FIND THE MOST PERTINENT DETAILS AND EMAIL THEM TO BOTH MACA AND GG because I knew that it would be less time consuming for them that way then it was for me, even though I KNEW it was critical that we ALL educate ourselves FULLY on what it means to be polyamorous as well as to be certain we were covering the details of each of our individual needs (not just my own) AND our 3 separate 2/person relationship needs AND the relationship between all three of us. EVEN THOUGH I not only told them both about the board and invited them to join and even though I took the time to email them links to posts/threads that were PERSONALLY pertinent to us and specifically commented in those emails as to how they pertained to how I feel, what I need, what I expect, believe etc...
I also knew he didn't read all of the emails, didn't research polyamory (or D/s as noted in a prior "problem thread of mine) and didn't make time to read the board or get to know the people who I was talking about having meaning to me... As I told Maca this afternoon-I knew the level of commitment I was asking Maca to accept as being allowed between GG and I, wasn't THERE.
I SHOULD have put that information together, but I didn't.

I had major issues with my blood pressure this past weekend (which postponed our talks) and both of them were there.
Subtle I can see (that is so my sister). But you have to be there to BE THERE. More on that later.

Ask GG flat out. It's a bit scary, I know. You may not get the answer you would like. I'm prepared for that myself.
In a way I guess it's scary-but I asked the scariest question and I got the most possible heartbreaking answer I could imagine. One of my strengths is always being able to accept the true answer, even if it's not what I want to hear. It hurt-and I don't know what it's going to mean in terms of impacting our situation. I do know I DID make that covenant in my love for GG, and I don't break my covenants. I also know now that he did not make that depth of covenant in his love for me. How our lives will change in light of that, I'm not sure. There WILL be changes. I won't stop loving him and I won't leave (or kick him out) but things will change, they have to.
But because you are depressed, I would like to suggest you not make a major decision at this time. Hear things GG has to say but think on them for a long enough time that you'll be able to discern if your reaction is clouded by depression or not.
Thank you. :) You sound so much like me. I say that so often to people. I am not one to make rash decisions. I don't intend to make any decisions right now. One must first fully feel their heartache and reach the point where they can accept it as part of them before they move on-and I will. :)

All I can pass along is a hug LR. Reading your response(s) I can see you are in pain. I hope it all works out. I would play devils advocate, as I tend to do, but in all honesty you don't need that :)...I wish you the best with your healing and I really hope GG figures out what...well figures stuff out.
Ariakas, you are a wonder. I can't believe that you wrote this. It brought tears to my eyes when I read it again today. So very thoughtful, so compassionate, so loving. SUCH deep ability to express loving action to another from a man who claims that he has difficulty doing so. :) I know your story-we've talked, I want you to know-there MUST be great wonders in store for you, because your heart shines through the internet, so many people's hearts don't shine through in real life! TY, xo.

Just curious, could you have slightly misinterpreted what was said. I have never known anyone to say their loves are not best friends. However, if you were best friends and moved to lovers the dynamic changes, you can never JUST be a best friend again.
YES Ariakas! YES. My sister, she's not biologically my sister. She was my best friend first. She and I say that one day we decided to "promote" one another. Now (and for many years now) we have proclaimed one another as sisters. With that proclamation we have responsibilities. Those responsibilities are IN ADDITION to the responsibilities one has to a best friend....

For example, my wife is my best friend...my wife is my lover. I have responsibilities to both of those dynamics that are very fluid.
YES YES YES YES YES!!! Not one or the other, she holds both roles in your life, in your heart-so you (and she) hold both sets of responsibilities, not one or the other..

Hope that made sense.
It made perfect sense to me, but that wasn't really the issue. BUT I THANK YOU for expressing it. At least I know I'm not the only one who see's this, and I if I am crazy for thinking it-there are other "crazies" out there as well!

Wow...ya, I can't verbalize the difference either. Sorry I can't even really "tell" the difference, but I can compare how I am with my best friend A and my ex-lover and best friend E. The differences are small but important. I will have to think about this to figure out what the difference is...
And so, here we are. As bolded, underlined and re-colored, I need those small differences if I am to take someone as a primary....

Some of you are right in thinking that I've been trying to allow for Maca to be there for LR. But, being in this poly relationship, I need to realize that I am just as important to LR as Maca is.
No-this is incorrect. SOME poly relationships are NOT equal. Being a PRIMARY to me means that you have equal responsibility (and privileges) as Maca in relationship with me. BUT if you don't choose to take the responsibilities, you can't remain a primary-and as noted later, either you have it or you don't. Either your depth of emotion for me and commitment to me is PRIMARY or it's not.
I have this real issue with worrying that I'll step on his toes. All the years they've been together, I've been the only one that supported them in their marriage all the time.
Did you forget ALL THE YEARS OF OUR RELATIONSHIP when the word poly got brought up? Or was it when the word marriage got brought up? Have you spent 17 years freaking ignoring what I say? Have you never heard and NOTED how often I've screamed, yelled, fought, etc for OUR relationship????
 
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Never once did I ever try to manipulate my way into a relationship with LR, never once did I try to make Maca leave, never once did I try to replace him.
Great, nor did you do any of those things in your relationship with your OTHER best friend. But as I said to you yesterday-if you suggested to his wife that his level of commitment/responsibility to YOU should be the same as to HER because you and he are best friends-that little firecracker would DEFINITELY slap you and likely kick your ass. You are TOTALLY missing the part where people who are "in love" and "romantic" and "best friends" and "committed for life" owe each other some amount MORE of some indefinable aspect of themselves than those who are JUST "best friends". I guarantee that HE does NOT put you on equal status as HIS WIFE. So why would you think that I would be content with you putting me on equal status as HIM?
He's AWESOME. I appreciate him greatly. I FOUGHT for you to rebuild that friendship GG!! HE wouldn't even BE IN YOUR LIFE were it not for me AND MY DEVOTION TO YOU EVEN IF YOU DON'T NEED OR ASK FOR ME/MY HELP...... Because of my covenant to be all I can be for/to you, I fight for what you need and what is best for you EVEN IF YOU DON'T ASK ME TO and in fact ESPECIALLY if you don't ask me to..... because IT IS MY JOB as your SIGNIFICANT other....
Maca gets frustrated with me bacause I don't "act" like a boyfriend. And I argue with him saying that It's difficult to be a boyfriend of someone who has a husband.
Interestingly I think I get this INTELLECTUALLY-because it's much what Mono says and I've been studying Mono's posts for 6 months.
But personally-I don't understand it at all. If my child was dying in the hospital, and Maca were there, I would not be "needed", he can do all the things for them that I can. BUT I WOULD BE THERE because his presence is about THEIR relationship and HIS responsibility to the covenant of fatherhood he made. MY presence is about OUR relationship and MY responsibility to the covenant of motherhood I made.
Likewise-It is NOT hard for me AT ALL to imagine upholding my responsibilities to you if you also had a wife-because HER responsibilities to you due to HER covenant to you is NOT PERTINENT to mine and does NOT negate mine in any way....
...Finally today, LR asks me what I think the difference is between a "best friend" and a "significant other". And I never really even thought of compareing the two that way. Reason being, they are one in the same to me. Only S/O's have a romantic part of their relationship.
All privileges come with a responsibility. As I said before, the romantic part is the privilege of a S/O. What is the responsibility GG?

Tonoght I was making comparisons to my other best friend Getsueh. What is the difference between my relationship with LR and my relationship with Getsueh? And other than the romantic end of it, and the fact that LR/ I are in love with each other, and Getsueh and I are NOT, though we do HAVE love for each other, there isn't any difference. Not to me.
This is the reason I can't have a primary relationship with you. I tried, but it's not POSSIBLE for me to have a primary relationship with someone who doesn't differentiate between a primary and their best friend. I can't and I won't pretend I can.

I would die for both of them. I trust both of them. I do what I can for both of them. I'm friends with both of them. I support both of them. I give my time to both of them. They in turn have done so for me. But she is the one I care more deeply for. If they were hanging over a cliff and I had to let one of them fall, it would be Getsueh because I'm not in love with him. (And I know he'd expect me to do that)...
People use that stupid cliff comparison all of the time. But I AM HANGING OFF THE GOD DAMN CLIFF GG and ironically I'm hanging alone-but you ARE NOT choosing to pull me up, even though you don't have to let him fall in order to do so.
BECAUSE you don't feel like it's your place.... WHAT?!?!?!?!??!
You don't feel like it's your PLACE?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Do you SEE the issue here?
I know that she's going through a hell of a time during her recovery. And she also knows that I am willing to be here for her 24/7 if she needs me to be.
HUH?! IF?!?!
IF is what sticks in my craw. Go back and re-read the section about "if" my child were dying in the hospital... would I go IF they needed me to? No. I would go BECAUSE IT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY. BECAUSE I made a covenant to be their parents it is now my RESPONSIBILITY to be there WHETHER OR NOT I AM "NEEDED".

I just have other people that I care about that I want to visit sometimes. I'm not gone for more than a day when I do.
WTF does this have to do with this topic? No, don't answer. IT DOES NOT PERTAIN. I too have other people I care about that I want to visit sometimes. In fact I want to go MEET two people I have come to care about for 10 days in August! WHAT does that have to do with this topic? Nothing. Nothing at all.
Additionally, unlike you, I DO have ANOTHER person who I am ALREADY in a covenant with as a PRIMARY SIGNIFICANT OTHER. Try that on for size. You are struggling to be willing to make that level of commitment to ONE person.

Maybe she wants to know that I prioritize her more than my other best friend.
:confused:
WANT? WANT? M'ebe, you are so fucking lost at this point I don't even know what to SAY.

I love her SO MUCH. And this is killing me! I would do ANYTHING to make her happy.
That is a DANGEROUS and STUPID road to travel. It's not about what I "want"; it's about doing what is RIGHT. If you spend all of your time trying to do what I "want" you will fail. Because what I want is to follow the path I belong on and you can't create THAT.



But I wonder if, because she's depressed (as one of you pointed out) she might not be realizing that I'm here too.
That isn't the issue. It was a good guess on Ourquad's part but she's not here and you should know better. I DO know the "subtle" things you (and Em) do. That isn't the issue at all.
I didn't know she was having this issue with me until yesterday. I thought it was because of her medication, and her frustration at being restricted. I've tried talking to her and I had no idea that there was this hidden issue.
It wasn't hidden. It's just that you aren't in anyway motivated to DO the job of a primary significant other.

I should have stayed because it was the "right thing to do". Because even if she was fine enough FOR me to not have ot be here, and YOU were here with her to take care of her, I should have been here for at the very least, support.
Wrong. IF you want the relationship of a primary significant other then you should do the job off one. If you don't then there is nothing wrong with not doing that job.

I should stay because I love her and I know it would make her happy if I did.
Wrong again. It's not about making me happy. Re-read above as many times as necessary.
It's really all in our mind and heart. When our love & concern for someone becomes deep enough they just "become" a priority. We no longer even think about it or analyze it. We just act - based on that inner instinct and connection of what is needed. What's the best that we can do.
This. :)
It's not about who ELSE might also be doing it-we just can't stop ourselves, we MUST do it. Something within us drives us to.
It definitely IS a different way of thinking & living. The examples Maca used were great. If you think about what your reaction would be if it was your child (in some cases) then you know how to act - without even thinking. There really are no options.
Oh you people! Bring tears to my eyes. There really are no options. You just HAVE to-it's like HAVING to pee, at a certain point it doesn't matter if you are at the potty or not-you HAVE to go.
So although I agree (and speak similarly often) that a deep, best, friendship contains MOST of the qualities that make for a successful love relationship and kind of form a minimum specification, there still remains that small, subtle and critical difference.
Yes. Yes. Yes.

When it comes to those we love - thoughts of others simply don't enter the thought process at all - let alone any discussion. We simply don't care ! We know what we NEED to do - and we just do it. Nothing else matters.
Wish I could type this out in the sky!

Maybe this is a breakthrough ? I see the seeds........
I pray you are right GS.
 
Maybe this is a breakthrough ? I see the seeds........
I pray you are right GS.

I definitely see seeds. On paper (or web) some things are easier to convey. I see what you posting as being concise and accurate to what you want AND to how you interpret what GG has posted. You could easily make point form notes and break down the differences. You may find it is something as simple as miscommunication (different from a lack of communication) or something as complex as requiring role change (very difficult I know)...

I sent you a pm with some other stuff too :)...best of luck LR and to answer your question...my arms are very long and very strong :p :)...
 
Wow, it took me an hour to read through this and now I have no time to write because I'm picking up my tersiary, Dex.

Couple of notes that could be expanded, I am in the habit of telling people exactly what I want them to say and do. Its up to them to do it if they want to be there for me. I'm talking about my men and others that have become close to me. I see no harm in telling people what makes my heart sing and how they can love me better. They will see the benefit of loving me the way I want, cause I return that love how they want.

I also suggest having a look at "the five love languages" if you haven't already because you haven't mentioned once how GG might need to be loved in all this. After all, he needs love too and it might just be that you are different. What you value LR and Maca and what he values might be different. I don't think that the "punishement (because it sure sounds kinda like one)" of "you don't get to be primary" because you aren't doing it "my" way is not necessarily fair. The thing that sticks out for me is that he might not want that kind of primary role and that needs to be worked out.
I hear what you are saying LR. You are fed up. Completely, but listen to who ever it was who said to not decide anything now. Its only been since September! No rush, it will sort out with time.
 
I just wanted to add that I heard what you said
LR about GG not saying what he would like to participate in and being blase. I think it might be a good time to sit and work that out again (these things come up over and over again don't they!).

It seems GG is not one to take the upper hand and if not then some way of working in the group dynamic you have set up seems to be needed. Perhaps looking at group dynamics and studying what peoples roles tend to be in a group setting would be useful. Everyone does best in a certain role or roles, finding GGs role seems to be important and then relying on him to fulfill that role. It might mean someone else has to give him reponsibilities that they once did themselves and then relying on him to do them.

GG, that would mean you have to live by your word and do as you say you will do. Not make hollow promises that sound good but that you don't keep. Not that you would do that intentionally, but it would be extremely important to keep your word at that point. That would mean making sure you think very deeply about what you can do and not take on too much to start with just to prove your worth. Baby steps are better than breaking your promise to take care of the things you say you will.

I'm sorry if this is choppy and to the point. I can't seem to find a way to sugar coat what I am wanting to say these days. I hope I don't come across as rude or all knowing. That isn't my intent. I think you have known me long enough to know that I have your best interest at heart and care about you all. I have invested in our friendship and when I invest I say things as I see them because I care, not because I am being a bitch. I hope you know that too... I know others reading what I write think differently, but you will take what you need from everyone, I'm sure of that and what purpose would it serve to say everything everyone else has already, even if I agree with a lot of it.

Lots of love, you know where to find me if you need to talk more.
 
GG, that would mean you have to live by your word and do as you say you will do. Not make hollow promises that sound good but that you don't keep. Not that you would do that intentionally, but it would be extremely important to keep your word at that point. That would mean making sure you think very deeply about what you can do and not take on too much to start with just to prove your worth. Baby steps are better than breaking your promise to take care of the things you say you will.

Thank you for your thoughts RP. I think one of the problems I have is that I fully mean well, and intend to, do something for someone, be it act a certian way, remember something important, take care of something in particular, etc, and it's not that I'm just saying it to "please" them. But what I don't do is make that particular thing important to ME. See, I want to do for others, but somehow I'm having an issue not putting myself in their shoes. In this instance, LR. But it works this way with other people as well.

I have trouble with following through. I say that I will "make sure this bag of clothes leaves the house today", but I really don't care about it myself, and so I "forget" or procrastinate and then it builds up into this huge issue.

Or LR says "I need you to take care of me" and I say I will and mean it in that instance, but after a few days, life happens and I "forget", OR I just don't think through all my actions. Like the concert. I didn't make it important to me to be sure that LR was doing okay enough for me to break away for the weekend. I actually would have had no issue with staying home that weekend and "taking care of her". But because I made an ass between you and me, because Maca was here and she seemed to be doing very well (considering) physically I didn't think she'd need me around right then. And it surprised me, not only because I thought (without thinking) that it would be fine, but I wasn't just going because I wanted to go. I was going because I felt obligated to my other best friend who bought the non-refundable ticket FOR me as a b-day gift.

But I didn't for one moment think through her wanting me around, and if LR was really as important to me as I claim and as I assured her, I wouldn't have even thought to leave. I would've cancelled it the day I found out when the surgery was scheduled for. But I didn't.
And even this coming weekend, I'm debating (or was) whether or not to go out again. But... instead of thinking thuroughly through, I'm assuming again and I'm NOT making her the priority I say she is.

I do love her very much, but something is flawed in the way I think, or don't think rather. I recall Robin Hood: Prince of Theives. "There are no perfect people, only perfect intentions". And that's all fine and well. But that doesn't stop people from hurting others, how ever unintentional. It doesn't allow for dropping the ball, or breaking trust.

And sure, we all make mistakes, but consequences don't give a flying fuck about intentions OR mistakes. And I don't want ANYONE to trust me to not follow through, or drop the ball, or break promises, or talk bullshit. That is no friend, of any kind, at all. But... they do. And that is something I intend to change.

I do love LR with all my heart. I wouldn't be here now if it weren't for her and everything she does and everything she is. But to love her, truly, is to know her. And I DO know her, but I'm not choosing to remember that when it's down to the wire. And I can imagine how that must feel. They're right, I shouldn't v to be "told", I should just know,and act accordingly.
 
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GG, I have to pick your brain a bit if you don't mind. You see it feels like you and my fiance have similar issues going on and the lack of follow through is hard for me to understand. I've always been a person who puts others first. I always follow through. I can't help but... Be there. My Fiance struggles with following through and he has explained it just as you have. That he means it when he says he will do A, but in turn he did B because he THOUGHT it would be fine. He ASSUMED that since I had or did *insert anything here* that it would be fine for B to happen even though he agreed, even promised that he would do A. I really wish he could tell me the whys of it. It hurts me terribley that he struggles to keep his word. It makes me feel like I'm only important to him when it suits him and that he does indeed "forget" the place that he appointed me to in his life. It's such a blow to my... Being when he does this. Is it a lack of motivation? Insecurities that get the best of you? Better to not try at all than to fail at what I said I would do? Selfishness? I just think if maybe I could understand it that would give me some type of peace of mind.

He also wants me to be able to believe that he will do the things he says, but from the biggest to the smallest I do not believe. It's hard to believe. To put faith in someone you really do depend on in life and have them drop you on your ass in the biggest of ways and the smallest of ways. After a while it doesn't matter is it's big or small. It's all BIG. That bag of clothes as an example FUCKING hurts, because why must you make me repeat it so many times. I know you could care less about the bag. I GET THAT. BUT, it is important to ME and yes I could move it, or I could get MACA (lol sorry LR for speaking as you. Maybe GG and I both can learn something out of this) to take it out, but I NEED to know that I can depend on you too. Yes, you're right the bag of clothes isn't important at all, it's my DESIRE for that damn bag to get out of our nice family room that means so much to me. That DESIRE should be ENOUGH. But... It's not. Why?

I see alot of my fiance in you and I so know the heartbreak LR feels over it. My fiance struggles in truly connecting and GETTING IT when we try to talk through our issues, but there's rarely resolution that sticks. Either we are speaking two different languages (ie he is "hearing" what I'm saying but it's not sinking deep down into his heart) or he makes wonderful words and then "forgets" them. It's so painful to KNOW someone LOVES you, but the feeling in your bones says they don't care enough to love you the way you need to be loved. It hurts to know I can talk until I'm blue in the face and I can even be naive enough to believe this mans words because I love him so much I want to believe that THIS time will be the time when his words are more than just words. It's hard keep picking yourself up off the ground and climbing back into the arma of the one that keeps letting you hit the ground... And yet we want to believe so badly because we love you so damn much. X(

I just wish I could crawl inside his mind to understand because I don't get where the struggle comes from. I don't want to be angry, hurt, bitter, ect. I just want to understand why this is happening because I don't believe you can fix a problem without knowing the cause...

PS. LR I totally get why you are thinking about moving GG to a secondary. You've been trying to get the things you need from him, right? You've talked until you're blue in the face right? And you love him enough to realize that if he can't provide what you need from him that you have to make peace with it and this is your way of doing it? After so many talks it feels like he's not capable so then it falls upon you to change what you need of him to what he is capable of, but at the same time it hurts to give all that you do and not get a fraction in return. So as a way to try and make this broken situation healthy for the both of you, you're trying to lessen expectations for both of you to gain some peace and ease between not only the two of you, but for you whole family. This is how I see it. Not a punishment... An I've tried all there is to try, it's not working so we need to change it so it does work.
 
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Ilove2men,

Yes,

I haven't had a chance yet to reply to RP (RP, I love you!).

I just read the whole page. :)
I only have a second, this is my couple hours to spend with GG and as you can all see, we do have some things to deal with that require my attention.

Yes, I do love him, no I'm not in any way trying to punish him. What i see is this, he can't (at least for now) meet my expectations for a primary. That could change and if it does I am MORE than willing to put the roles back.

But I love him. I can't just "let him go". At the same time, I can't handle the repeated disappointment and hurt, and it's not fair for the family to deal with the drama.
My expectations of a secondary are different, the privileges are different also, but the expectations are different. They are expectations he's dealt with for damn near to 17 years with no problem.
He's not upholding what even he would want from a primary.... so I'm actually changing it for HIS benefit. Because if things go as they have been, Maca will put his foot down and he will have to move out. THAT would take SO much more away from him (and I as well) than this will.
Also-this way gives him TIME to work on figuring out IF he really wants and can provide what a primary role would entail. All of the time he needs-without a battle, without a drama, without all of those consequences that could potentially destroy what we DO have.

:)

As for talking for me, that was DEAD on-so no harm, no foul.

;)

More later when I have some time to myself.
 
But what I don't do is make that particular thing important to ME.

Therein lies the problem and it's good that you recognize it. That's the start of changing it.

Tech doesn't to this well either. And really struggles to even see the need. One of our worst arguments was over this.

Here's my take on it....he will never, on his own, believe everything I feel is important to be so (that's the nature of being individuals). However, if I consider something important I feel it should be of some importance to him. Simply because he loves me

I'll use your example of the bag of clothes. Suppose Tech told me he was going to get that bag of clothes out of the house. I seriously doubt he would find that important on his list to do but, because I do, he told me he would do it. This would make me feel loved and that what mattered to me was important to him. That he is interested in my wants and needs enough to provide them if possible.

Now suppose that Tech did not get the bag out as he said he would. How do you think I feel now? I feel that I was wrong and he isn't interested in providing my wants and needs when he can. That if something isn't important to him that's how it is...regardless of how I feel about it. Do I feel loved and wanted? No. Do I feel as if I have to force him to do something he promised to do? Yes. Will I ask again? I'd probably give him another chance,yes. But repeated incidences of him not keeping his promises or failing to follow through will most definitely have an affect on our relationship.

There comes a point, and I've been there, when I will wonder whyhe is even saying he loves me. What does he really want from this relationship? What is he willing to do for it? Why is he even here? He told me he wanted this or this in the beginning but his actions do not match his words. Me, well I'm going to believe the actions. They speak louder to me.

Tech and I have different love languages (Gator and I do as well). Everyone needs to figure out what theirs and their partners love language is. And speak to them with that. Not our own as most people have a tendancy to do. Have you heard of the five love languages? They are 1)words of affirmation-that's Tech's 2)quality time-this is mine 3)receiving gifts-this is one of Kitten's 4) acts of service-th other of Kitten's and 5) physical touch-Gator leans heavily towards this. Now all of us will have more than one but generally one will be the more prevelant one. My second one is acts of service but I absolutely love it when one or the other of them ask for a date. Time for just us no matter what we do.

Let those you love know they are important to you. Know what is important to them and follow through with acting upon the things that let them know you love them.
 
Ourquad-read that book a couple times. :)
LOVED it.

I am very much a "switch" in the love languages, and having read it a few times, I am pretty (no one's perfect) good at taking symbols of love from any of the 5 and seeing them for acts of love.

For example, on another thread I mentioned a kid (he's 17)who I ADORE, great kid. Well his love language is Acts of Service, no doubt about it.

When he asks me (which he does all of the time), "does your water bottle need refilled? Do you want something from the kitchen?" as he gets up to go to the kitchen, I always always always tell him (usually the answer is no), "no but THANK YOU his name here, that's so sweet and I love you!". I also try to do for him, grab him a blanket, make his plate if I cook dinner/breakfast, etc. Because acts of service is his love language.

Because, that's HIS way of showing love.
When Maca is touchy feely-(I really had to teach myself this) I respond with I love you and try to return the physical affection, because HIS love language is physical touch. I also try to make a point of caressing his cheek, grabbing his butt :), stroking his hair and making love, even when there isn't anything I can get from it, because that makes HIM feel loved.

GG is usually pretty good at acceping love in a number of forms, but he's very much a cross between time and physical touch, except not necessarily sexual touch like Maca. I make sure to give him a hug goodnight, goodbye, and taking time to sit and talk (usually about nothing in particular). That's generally all it takes. He's not even REALLY particular about it being one on one time, just time/attention.

But-the thing that REALLY kicks my ass is when I'm NOT doing well (which isn't often in the big scheme, but has been a LOT since Thanksgiving due to my multiple surgeries). When I'm not doing well, is when my true love language is the only one that REALLY works, and that is time. The "acts of service" (like the bag he mentioned) comes into play but it's not a love language issue, it's that I can't lift the bag LITERALLY and I can't drive it to the consignment shop so I'm dependent on someone else to do it.
Maca works in another town, he leaves before the shop opens and he returns after they are closed.
My sister works here in town-but she works West of our house and the shop is East.
GG on the other hand passes by the location of the shop every day for work........
For the things I can't do because of medical issues I try very very hard to minimize "taking advantage" of any one person or asking anyone to do something that really would be "going out of their way to do".
In this case-my sister and Maca ended up taking time out of work to take the bags for me... because GG kept putting it off, for MONTHS-literally. So not only did all those thing you mention about my feelings come up (and yes the bag is an example and there are lots of others) but also his procrastination meant that other people had to rearrange their days to do it and in this case it was a much bigger task for them than it would be for him AND they know it since we all live together, so he also annoyed the piss out of them...
EEK.

Anyway-he's getting in the shower now, so I'm going to try to read a little before my friend shows up to take me for a walk. :) Love my walks!!
 
That was the book I was talking about ourquad. "The five love languages." We all read it and know each others ways of being loved. We act on them too. Hence why I tell them what I need to hear in order to feel loved. I Also require "acts of service." Its a big one for me and means next to nothing to both my men. I was doing stuff for them to express love and they weren't even getting it. Now things have changed and we are all on board. The point is though, that we are ALL on board.
 
I also suggest having a look at "the five love languages" if you haven't already because you haven't mentioned once how GG might need to be loved in all this. After all, he needs love too and it might just be that you are different.

Interesting detail to note-GG and I actually have the same primary love language, time... which is ONE reason why it hurt SO MUCH that after telling me he would be here for me through this-he started making plans to not be here. His reasoning (and he said it to me, Maca and my sister) was that Maca was here, so that makes it like he's not needed.
He seemed to miss this technicality-Maca being here for me makes me feel like Maca loves me..... Maca being here does not impact whether or not I feel that GG loves me.
GG being here or not being here is what impacts how loved I feel by GG.....
Even my sister (whose also known and been involved as a close friend with GG for 17 years unlike Maca) was astonished because like I said-it's OBVIOUS that GG's love language is TIME, just like mine.

As I said in my other post-when I'm well and not having issues, I can usually accept love well regardless of the method of delivery, acts of service (totally my sisters also), time, physical touch, gifts, words.. it doesn't matter. But when I'm not well, when I'm not able to take care of myself, then I revert to really needing that love expressed in my love language-and that is time.

What you value LR and Maca and what he values might be different.
Quite often what Maca and GG value differs. For that matter quite often what Maca and I value differ. Only in a few very specific areas does what I value and what GG values differ. Seriously. Enough so that often outside people have said we could be twins. We look nothing alike mind you. :D
Remember, that GG was very much still a kid when we became close and many of his "values" were decided based upon his experiences watching and living side by side with me and my sister. Especially in regards to raising kids, family responsibilities, relationships.

I don't think that the "punishement (because it sure sounds kinda like one)" of "you don't get to be primary" because you aren't doing it "my" way is not necessarily fair. The thing that sticks out for me is that he might not want that kind of primary role and that needs to be worked out.
It's not a punishment RP. It's an actions speak louder than words thing. He's obviously NOT ready for the responsibilities that even he would want given him in a primary relationship. He couldn't identify them off the top of his head, but when it was stated as, "if you .... what would you want your SO to do..." method, he could and did identify the same things.

As he said, if I were hanging from a cliff and even his best friend (who by the way I DO think is an AWESOME guy and have NO issues with) were also-he would pull me up AND his best friend would expect him to also.
IF he were hanging from that cliff and my "best friend" was also-GG would want to believe that I would pull him up first too.
Emotionally, physically I AM hanging from a cliff, and his other best friend is NOT, it's JUST ME, but instead of actually pulling me up, he responded with "maca's there, he can..."

On the MSN front page there was an article yesterday about a 2 year old falling in the East River in NY. The father jumped in to save her-we can all see the emotion that would drive that yes? So did a French Tourist. No thought, no pause, just went in after her....he didn't say (and apparently didn't think) "well that other guy jumped in, so I can go get that cab now and head home".

THAT is my issue. GG keeps making things (this is only one there are others) about "well if Maca can do it for her then I'm not needed."
The relationships are separate. We DO have a relationship as three, but we also each have our OWN relationships to "upkeep".

GG needs to think about OUR relationship to decide what he should do for/with me, not my relationship with Maca.

By his behavior thus far (which is very mono in nature actually, not to be mistaken for Mono, I mean, mono) if Maca gives me a Valentine's Day card or a birthday card, he doesn't need to, because Maca took care of it....

WELLLLLL if that's the way it's going to be..... then if Maca makes love to me why would I need to make love to GG? If Maca says i love you then I don't need GG to say he loves me?
If Maca tells me he thinks I'm beautiful then GG doesn't need to tell me he thinks I'm beautiful?

Each relationship has it's OWN responsibilities and just because Maca is being responsible in his (FINALLY) that doesn't mean GG doesn't have to be responsible in HIS relationship.

I hear what you are saying LR. You are fed up. Completely, but listen to who ever it was who said to not decide anything now.
I'm not deciding anything permanent-well really-I almost NEVER do. I decided to step back and give GG the freedom of a secondary. The freedom to go do what he needs to do, not ask him to be the one I depend on right now, when I NEED someone dependable. Freedom to go do whatever it is he needs to do, grow, learn, make choices.

I'm not kicking him out, I'm not "breaking up", I'm not ending our relationship. Just backing off.
 
I got the book as a valentine's day present for my fiance... He has yet to read it. I haven't read it yet either because I'm waiting for him to.

LR I really get your way of thinking and I know you are thinking of him when you contemplate this change. Whether he sees it as such is a different story. My fiance and I haven't made it through this yet. He still has this struggle that I can't wrap my head around. With us it HAS gone on too long. Last week was the end of my rope. I was barely functioning besides yelling or crying when he was in my presence. If I would have thought about your idea I would have ran with it.

The problem is I stopped voicing my needs and told him I wanted to know what he wants from our relationship. What HE wants his role in my life to be. I needed to know and I wanted complete honesty. He wants a primary role. He wants "to be the man", to support me, to be a pillar of strength, to be my soft place to land, to follow through. The problem is... (for me) it's not an instant fix. I still have to deal with how things are now because before he can be that man he wants to be he's got to learn how to do those things. The things on his list aren't difficult (for me) but he struggles. There is something blocking his ability. This wall... I feel I MUST know what it is. More than that he has no answer. So More than I need to know, HE needs to know what his preventing him from getting to point A to point B. It would be much easier to place him in a role that he wouldn't struggle in. It creates such chaos, but it's not what he wants for himself. So I sit and wait while he tries to figure it out and I try not to go into a tail spin everytime he "fails". We've gotten far enough now that he sees the hurt from his actions, but he hasn't quite stopped those actions. It's all a blur and sometimes I just want to scream (and I have unfortunately) IF YOU WANT IT SO BAD JUST FUCKING DO IT ALREADY!!!

I'd really like to understand. I relate myself to a cameleon. I am what my environment needs me to be. I can morph from one role to the next instantly so I don't get where the difficulty comes from. I would like to know, but my fiance is just as confused about the struggle as I am.

Right now, we are talking when I am emotionally strong enough to. taking insy weensy steps because I'm a lit fuse these days. I need time to heal from all of this but we still have to try to function as a family. but if we have any break throughs, I'll share them with you. if you have some I know you'll share x) we are supposed to have a convo tonight after if it's not too late I'm going to tell him about this thread. it would be nice if he would sign up and maybe put in his two cents on this. But lurking is all I expect.
 
I lurk too. =o) This is the most I've ever written on the board at all.

I can tell you, IL2M, that it's extremely frustrating on this end as well. Concepts that make total sense to me and things I would expect of anyone that said they were really in love woth someone, are very difficult for me to apply to myself. Reason...? I am trying to figure that out. I suppose it's different for everyone.

You're right, your fiance and I sound identical, but how we got there might be totally different. I am ADD, and much of my forgetfulness and procrastination is involved with that. So I take Adderol to tone it down a bit, to keep the thoughts in my head on an even lever, enough so that I can keep track and think clearer. But the meds only HELP me with doing that. They don't do it FOR me. I still have to put things into practice. I still have to make/ break habits.

It's not that you aren't important to him, per se'. It's that his priorities are all over the place. Well, MAYBE. It's that way for me. LR IS a priority for me, and pleasing her and doing for her is something VERY important for me to ensure and do. BUT, I ought to know her well enough that I don't have to be told, or asked to do certian things. I especially shouldn't have to be told or asked a SECOND time. (as we tell children).

So what I'm working on now is: realizing how important I actually am to her and asking myself if I'm willing to accept that. It's easy for some to put themselves mentally in anothers shoes, especially when it's OTHER soeone's that don't pertain to them. But it's also difficult for those same people to do that when the situation involves THEM, or pertains to THEM.

For example: I can see the POV between you/ your fiance'. I can relate to both sides. But even being the same situation, it's difficult for me to be in LR's shoes and see ME as she does. And that is one reason we're having this difficult time. I really need to make it a habit and force myself to see HER side and feel how SHE'S feeling. We are very simillar, but there are things that are important to her that really are not to me and vice versa, but at least she pays attention to what is/ isn't to me and plays on that knowlege. That is something I need to do, because that is what an S/O does. ESPECIALLY an S/O. A common friend should do that sa well.

Anyway, more later, gotta go to work! =o)
 
I'm tired of writing fiance(C) and boyfriend(K).

C also has add, but he doesn't take anything for it. There's been abuse and abandonment as well.

To me what I see is an emotional disconnect. Where you can see both sides of my story, but if you insert LR where she's stated she feels the same, it makes no sense to you. C does this as well. It's the whole I "hear" what you're saying thing I was talking about. You have the rationalization down. You have love for LR, but it's not all clicking together to form a well oiled machine maybe? (lol look at me with boy talk xp ) I may be grasping at straws, but... Who knows.
 
I got the book as a valentine's day present for my fiance... He has yet to read it. I haven't read it yet either because I'm waiting for him to.

That's funny-ironic not laughable.
I have bought a NUMBER of books and asked GG to read them (Maca does this too), but they continue to sit in various "I'm not dealing with this right now" places.

I pulled one out today that has been sitting for MONTHS, Love Without Limits by Deborah Anapol. I bought two copies (yes seriously) gave one to Maca, one to GG. Maca put his on his bedside table, I pulled it out today, from under a foot high pile of other shit. GG put his on a box on the floor in his room, I pulled it out from under a pile of shit.
Then set them on the kitchen counter today. GG didn't even remember me giving it to him when I SPOKE about it-but it took me less than 30 seconds to go downstairs and pull out BOTH books, because I knew exactly where they were and how long they've been there proving that something I felt was important enough to not only read myself, but to purchase TWO COPIES and give to each of them, wasn't important enough to even remember much less actually read.
:rolleyes:

Like I would randomly do that if I didn't think that the information was IMPORTANT in our relationship?
 
I pulled one out today that has been sitting for MONTHS, Love Without Limits by Deborah Anapol. I bought two copies (yes seriously) gave one to Maca, one to GG. Maca put his on his bedside table, I pulled it out today, from under a foot high pile of other shit. GG put his on a box on the floor in his room, I pulled it out from under a pile of shit.

I can relate. I have a few books I bought for my wife and I to read. I have read them and they helped. I want her to understand me more deeply then the surface level of understanding "I want to love more"....

She is heading back home for 3 weeks and plans to read Opening Up and Ethical Slut. I really do hope she does :)
 
I read Opening Up as well. I asked them both to read it-they didn't. I haven't read the Ethical Slut, but no one's asked me to either. :)

Maca asked for advice early on, RP's husband suggested he read "Living Happily Ever After". I saw the suggestion, I bought the book. I read the book (great book). I asked Maca and GG to read it.
They both started it (together) but both of them opted to put it down before finishing chapter one and neither has finished it. MIND YOU that was after BOTH of them were acknowledging that there were some KEY things in that first chapter that they each needed to work on!!!!!!
 
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